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01/24/2008 10:07:05 AM · #101 |
Originally posted by samchad:
Excuse me if I have missed something here, but what does it mean if you 'win' a no-ribboner? You are the top of the pile of photographers after all of the good ones have been removed. Hmmm.... that sounds like a great achievement!
When I come to my next appraisal at work I'll try it: "Well, if you ignore all of the top performers above me, I came first".
Similarly, you could only win one once (as you would then have a ribbon yourself) and the number of people being able to compete would continually decrease in numbers until it was pointless. |
That last is an obvious but rather pointed fact. Non-ribboners' challenges are a bad idea. Watering down the competition is going to spell the start of a long slow decline into the mediocrity of so many other sites. Rewarding mediocrity and calling it "encouragement" is pretty dire. There's a lot of other forms of encouragement here aside from the challenges themselves: side challenges (probably the best for learning), forums, request for comments threads, tutorials, warlords like posthumous, and simply following the progress of ordinary people like Joey, biteme, timfythetoo, and others. |
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01/24/2008 10:12:59 AM · #102 |
 trevytrev
Idea: Have once a month, or few times a year "none ribboner" challenge to encourage member without ribbons to enter better work, and have registered users to become members (because that would be members only challenge). It won't downgrade any ribbon, ribbon always will be same quality as they are now. Such in master challenge or challenges with 80 entries or 300 entries.
Goal: to encourage people for photography, and encourage register users to become members |
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01/24/2008 10:17:23 AM · #103 |
Originally posted by FocusPoint:
It won't downgrade any ribbon, ribbon always will be same quality as they are now. |
I think that point is under debate.
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01/24/2008 10:18:07 AM · #104 |
Originally posted by FocusPoint:
...to encourage member without ribbons to enter better work.. |
By getting a ribbon for entering the same quality of work you've been entering all along? No thanks. If you want to improve, you should actually HAVE TO enter better work. If I hadn't been forced to compete against the best, I might have one ribbon... and a bigger portfolio of the same mediocre photos I had when I started here.
Message edited by author 2008-01-24 10:20:33. |
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01/24/2008 10:25:19 AM · #105 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by FocusPoint:
...to encourage member without ribbons to enter better work.. |
By getting a ribbon for entering the same quality of work you've been entering all along? No thanks. If you want to improve, you should actually HAVE TO enter better work. |
 scalvert
No arguments there... but if I enter my best 10 times, and I know I entered my best and lost with 0.01, that starts to annoy me, and I say "I can't win with those pros on board" and either I get discouraged or quit or kill my cat... whatever.
Not everyone's psychology the same, you want to keep your members here or not. that's the question, and doing it without hurting others...
As I said before, I know from myself, it could be really nice to see what those "no-ribboners" can do. Why not having one challenge and see. I mean you guys are testing stuff here right? Just try and see if it works, how it works and what the reaction would be :)
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01/24/2008 10:36:05 AM · #106 |
Originally posted by FocusPoint:
if I enter my best 10 times, and I know I entered my best and lost with 0.01, that starts to annoy me, and I say "I can't win with those pros on board" and either I get discouraged or quit or kill my cat... whatever. |
That was me in 2004. After getting lucky once, I thought I'd never see another top 10. I certainly thought a ribbon was out of reach, a 7+ score was a pipe dream, and an 8+ score was beyond imagination. Guess what? I tried harder and discovered that I was wrong. I can take pride in knowing that I succeeded without a handicap, and even then I've been disappointed at times that Heida or Kiwiness wasn't competing in the same challenge.
Originally posted by FocusPoint:
it could be really nice to see what those "no-ribboners" can do. Why not having one challenge and see. |
We already did.
Message edited by author 2008-01-24 10:38:35. |
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01/24/2008 10:39:59 AM · #107 |
scalvert
My apology, I didn't know :(
How did it go, what was the reaction? Can you guys do that once a month or maybe 4 times a year? |
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01/24/2008 10:45:12 AM · #108 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by FocusPoint:
it could be really nice to see what those "no-ribboners" can do. Why not having one challenge and see. |
We already did. |
Check out the entry by  Joey Lawrence - He was scary good then - and it didn't even get him to a 6.0!
Message edited by author 2008-01-24 10:45:23. |
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01/24/2008 10:49:57 AM · #109 |
Some entertaining, at the least, reading
One for the Regulars
Invitational
Masters Chal . ..Err. Invitational challenges
There might some nugget of an answer in there for you |
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01/24/2008 10:51:09 AM · #110 |
focuspoint, I think your intentions are good ones but I feel that your suggestion will not help an increase in membership. you stated the goal was: to encourage people for photography, and encourage register users to become members. That's what the Open challenges are for right now, to allow registered users to take part in a challenge and encourage them to become members and to take pictures and be creative. You stated that you would be pissed if you missed a ribbon by.001, would you really? I wouldn't, that would mean that you have a nice photo and that you were pretty damn close to a ribbon and you hung with the top of the bunch. My belief is this will not encourage people to enter better photos and that all it does it try to make someone who hasn't won a ribbon feel better about their photography. If you really want to encourage people who are new or less experienced then start a "rookies" club or "ribbonless" club. You can set up a thread and have people join and keep track of how they all finish in challenges and hand of "Focus" ribbons. You probably could get some senior members to come in and mentor and pass out knowlegde and tips. To me this would be much more conducive to learning and having fun then pandering to the lowest common denominator by making things easier for people to win a ribbon. just my opinion from a non ribbon winning memeber who is working on winning a ribbon.
Message edited by author 2008-01-24 10:52:44. |
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01/24/2008 10:51:48 AM · #111 |
Originally posted by samchad:
Personally, I have only ever won one ribbon, and it is far more gratifying to win it when I knew EVERYONE was in the running. |
Well said! I agree.
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01/24/2008 10:53:12 AM · #112 |
Where were you 15 pages ago... ? I thought I am insisting something new here :P I shut up and go do some reading now :)
but, I still think it should be regular once a while with masters challenge :)
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01/24/2008 10:57:24 AM · #113 |
| it seems everyone is focused on ribbons and i don't think that that is really the problem--- i remember reading quite a few threads where people were unhappy about scores in general--it seems like the top 10-20 % score high 6 or above and everyone else gets crap i think everyone thinks a 5 is a poor score so they feel bad and it is compounded the more 5's they get--i know i do lol perhaps instead of focusing on ribbons we should try to find a way to spread out the scores a little more? |
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01/24/2008 10:58:21 AM · #114 |
Originally posted by trevytrev:
If you really want to encourage people who are new or less experienced then start a "rookies" club or "ribbonless" club. You can set up a thread and have people join and keep track of how they all finish in challenges and hand of "Focus" ribbons. ... |
Ok. This thread just became worthwhile. Nice suggestion Trev.
This could be setup similar to the way Scott ( SDW) has run the FSM (Free Study Marathon). Have it run on a quarterly basis or something. Once a person has won a ribbon (in regular open/member challenges) they are no longer eligible to participate in the "ribbonless" side competition/club (whatever it's named).
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01/24/2008 11:02:12 AM · #115 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
...Ok. This thread just became worthwhile. |
Thanks man ;) |
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01/24/2008 11:07:32 AM · #116 |
I think there are two things to look at.
1) Its not just about winning. We could have a challenge for non-ribboners. Then we could have a challenge for anyone who hasn't scored above a 6. Then we could have a challenge for people who haven't even got a 5 yet. And then if you haven't got a ribbon after all that just submit a picture and we'll hand one over. Yes this is an extreme reaction but I do feel that way in one sense.
2) I like to compete against my peers. Just like I wouldn't enjoy racing a BMX bike against Lance Armstrong, I want to see how I compare to people who are at my level of experience and knowledge.
Now to put the two together. If I ribboned once, does that mean that my skill level is superb? Not necessarily. The thing I have found with photography is that the difference between someone who is good and someone who is great is that great photographers get great shots more often than not. That doesn't mean someone in the good category can't get great shots but they are less frequent. On the other side of the coin, if I have never ribboned does that mean I am mediocre? No. It just means that your shots, as judged by the people of this site, have not been able to garner the votes to win. If I had 25 straight 10th place entries I would feel pretty darn good about my shots. Probably better than if I got 1 ribbon and 24 mid placing entries.
So to boil it right down: I want a chance to compete against people at my level. Ribbons are not the only indicator of skill.
I also don't believe in segregating the challenges. (i.e. you can't enter this challenge because you have/don't have ribbons). Have everyone enter the same challenge. Make the comparison differently though so that you are competing against your peers.
Message edited by author 2008-01-24 11:09:51. |
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01/24/2008 11:20:34 AM · #117 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Once a person has won a ribbon (in regular open/member challenges) they are no longer eligible to participate in the "ribbonless" side competition/club (whatever it's named). |
So the goal is to encourage people so they can be kicked out? Woo! ;-) |
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01/24/2008 11:25:42 AM · #118 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Once a person has won a ribbon (in regular open/member challenges) they are no longer eligible to participate in the "ribbonless" side competition/club (whatever it's named). |
So the goal is to encourage people so they can be kicked out? Woo! ;-) |
But of course! Once someone has a ribbon, the "ribbonless" don't want to play with them anymore. :-)
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01/24/2008 11:33:46 AM · #119 |
Originally posted by FocusPoint:
Originally posted by samchad:
...when I knew EVERYONE was in the running. |
No, only 305 people were running. not everyone. which is a good number, don't get me wrong. But how about the challenge winners with 80 runners? I think your ribbon should have a darker blue with 300+ on it so you would be more proud of yourself, no? and the ones with 80 people challenge would have 80+ on the ribbon and less proud of their work, no? |
It doesn’t matter how many people enter the challenge this site is all about challenging yourself. If only 80 people enter a challenge it could be that 100 people could not come up with a good enough idea and didn’t enter the challengeâ€Â¦it was too challenging for them.
That’s why I like the DPL and the Doc’s League of Death because it forces you to enter the challenges thus pushing you to your limits and as far as challenges that exclude the best on the site is concernedâ€Â¦well I don’t find that very challenging. It sounds like you want to split the challenges into grades of photographersâ€Â¦Ă˘€Â¦.I don’t think that is very good idea.
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01/24/2008 11:44:14 AM · #120 |
| This has probably been suggested but I'll throw it out there anyways. How about a challenge ladder? Each week you compete against the person above/below you. You win, you go up the ladder. Its that simple. |
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01/24/2008 11:45:45 AM · #121 |
Good luck getting people to vote on a bunch of mediocre images...
You talk about a decline in the number of votes... well, taking the best images out of the challenges would be a perfect way to ensure that the lower tier challenges get less than 50 votes an entry. |
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01/24/2008 11:49:05 AM · #122 |
Originally posted by Citadel:
2) I like to compete against my peers. Just like I wouldn't enjoy racing a BMX bike against Lance Armstrong, I want to see how I compare to people who are at my level of experience and knowledge. |
On the flip side, I've actually been in a race against Lance Armstrong. I've also swam in races against world record holders. I've lined up along side world champions in other sports. It is amazing to be able to compete in the same race with people that are in a different class. It is pretty awesome to be passed by a couple of world champions in one race, helicopters flying by, cameras on motorbikes.
Being stuck in a lower level competition is a whole lot less fun and exciting. You never know how you really stack up, then.
Message edited by author 2008-01-24 11:50:52. |
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01/24/2008 11:55:37 AM · #123 |
A simple solution is to keep the challenges just as they are now, but create a second category of awards called "medals" and award them within each challenge, to the top 3 finishers among those who have not exceeded whatever criteria are used to define the "divisions".
This way everyone's still "competing against the best" but the less-experienced, less-accomplished entrants still have something to shoot for as they grow within the site.
R.
Incidentally, I've never quite understood this mentality Gordon is describing; by that standard, I should be less pleased with any ribbon I receive in an open challenge where the "big guns" all opted for the other challenge?
Message edited by author 2008-01-24 11:57:30.
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01/24/2008 12:11:45 PM · #124 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Incidentally, I've never quite understood this mentality Gordon is describing; by that standard, I should be less pleased with any ribbon I receive in an open challenge where the "big guns" all opted for the other challenge? |
Personally, yes, probably. Though I've never understood the 'everyone's a winner/ getting points for trying' type of tiered competition or testing. I've always thought if your best wasn't good enough, you have to try harder or find something you are good enough at. Competing with people better than you forces you to raise your game - so you get better.
Message edited by author 2008-01-24 12:38:38. |
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01/24/2008 12:33:39 PM · #125 |
Well my last two challenge entries got over 260 votes, the most I think that I've ever gotten. I don't see the votes going down.
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