Is DPC turning in to Snapshot City

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

09/25/2003 05:39:54 PM · #76

Originally posted by GeneralE:

How about a challenge from which ribbon-winners are excluded, but they're the only ones who get to vote? Then we can try out that judging panel idea instead of the current chaos.

While this sounds initially like a good idea, I think it would in the end be bad. DPC already actively promotes a particular style of photography, distilling the voting down to the people who do well at that particular style, (and hence probably hold it high regard) would only further narrow the focus of the winners I suspect.

wewillexplore

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

09/25/2003 05:40:09 PM · #77

Originally posted by GeneralE:

How about a challenge from which ribbon-winners are excluded, but they're the only ones who get to vote? Then we can try out that judging panel idea instead of the current chaos.

That'd be interesting. :)

M

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

09/25/2003 05:41:33 PM · #78

Originally posted by OneSweetSin:

A voting average of 3.88 simply says this person has no idea what 6 through 10 is for and is only voting on a point system of 5.

The underlying mistake in your assumptions is that 1-10 has to be used and that a 10 is a good picture in the dpc sense. It doesn't say that anywhere - the only guidelines are 1 - bad and 10 - good. If you take the entire history of photography as your reference, then a 5 is a decidedly good score...

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

09/25/2003 05:49:38 PM · #79

Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by GeneralE:
How about a challenge from which ribbon-winners are excluded, but they're the only ones who get to vote? Then we can try out that judging panel idea instead of the current chaos.

While this sounds initially like a good idea, I think it would in the end be bad. DPC already actively promotes a particular style of photography, distilling the voting down to the people who do well at that particular style, (and hence probably hold it high regard) would only further narrow the focus of the winners I suspect.

I only meant to do it ONCE! (As "punishment" for the ribbon-winners, and as an experiment to see if people's scores would really change with only "qualified voters" participating -- I'd guess not much.)

Ultimately, I think the "chaos" of the current system is ultimately the most fair, since it affords everyone the opportunity to participate fully, limited only by their own time and desire.

Especially with an online community like this, I see no real need for representative democracy, when direct democracy is practical.

drwranger7

Canon EOS-30D

Sigma 120-300mm f/2.8 EX APO IF HSM for Canon

09/25/2003 05:54:49 PM · #80

I rarely voice my opinion, but I feel I can contribute to this debate in that I am one of the people many of you are complaining about. I tend to give scores that range in the 3-5 area because most of the pictures look like a small child could have picked up a camera and taken most of them.

I view the scale of voting in this sense:
1-very poor
2-poor
3-below average
4-average
5-above average
6-good
7-very good
8-great
9-excellent
10-perfect

You see, in the end it does not matter what the average score of your photo says. If I score all photos a 4 and one persons an 8, they have a distinct advantage. That is no different than someone giving all 6's and a 10. People should judge themselves on their respective rank in the contest.

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

09/25/2003 05:59:07 PM · #81

Once again I am gong to suggest a breakdown of levels for the challenge. It could be 2 or 3 levels and you could not vote in your own level. Before anyone complains about the lower level not recieving votes, it could also become part of the details to each challenge that you have to vote on a minimum of 20% in each of the other levels. Before anyone complains cause of dial up and connections, if you can find the time to go out and take that photo, edit it and upload it then you can find the time to vote!

ScottK

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

09/25/2003 06:02:34 PM · #82

Originally posted by Gordon:

Not necessarily. Just because those who win ribbons are good at taking photos that appeal to a larger portion of the audience doesn't mean that their own tastes and judgement will follow in that same direction. Those who are the "masters" of an art often have a wider appreciation for differnt styles than the "masses".

dacrazyrn

Nikon D300

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

09/25/2003 06:10:16 PM · #83

Originally posted by drwranger7:

...I tend to give scores that range in the 3-5 area because most of the pictures look like a small child could have picked up a camera and taken most of them.

I view the scale of voting in this sense:
1-very poor
2-poor
3-below average
4-average
5-above average
6-good
7-very good
8-great
9-excellent
10-perfect.

I really think you are demeaning alot of people (and yourself) by saying a small child could shoot "most of the pictures" that are submitted for challenges (and remember there are children here that enter, too). So where are your credentials that makes you believe that statement could be true?
Where is your submissions? Put something in your portfolio if you haven't submitted, so that we may all see the expertise.
And lastly, you must have never taken math. The median of 1 to 10 is 5. Ever heard of the Bell curve? and I think you only use 1-5 anyway. Think of rating this way. A 5 is what the average person can shoot. Does that make sense?

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

09/25/2003 06:10:35 PM · #84

Originally posted by drwranger7:

I tend to give scores that range in the 3-5 area because most of the pictures look like a small child could have picked up a camera and taken most of them ...

Some kids around here can take a photograph which scores higher than 5!

09/25/2003 06:12:27 PM · #85

Originally posted by OneSweetSin:

Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I would consider an average vote cast of 3.88 to be a form of unfair doctoring :)

I wouldn't say an average vote cast of 3.88 is unfair doctoring but I certainly would say it is a case of not knowing that the voting goes to 10! Face it if your average vote is a 3.88 you aren't using the system. A 5 should be an average photo and then 6 through 10 should be better than average and 1 to for would be below average. A voting average of 3.88 simply says this person has no idea what 6 through 10 is for and is only voting on a point system of 5.

I strongly suggest a revision in your mathematics.
Besides, I have no problem to publish all my votes.

09/25/2003 06:14:38 PM · #86

Originally posted by dacrazyrn:

A 5 is what the average person can shoot. Does that make sense?

Again - that's your interpretation of the voting scale - it doesn't have to be that and it certainly hasn't been stated that it must be that.

Other, perfectly valid and correct scales
[1] doesn't meet challenge at all
[5] on topic, but doesn't hit me effectively
[10] the most strong representation of the challenge topic I've seen

or

[1] worst photo in history
[5] average based on all the pictures I've seen
[10] best picture I've ever seen

or

[1] worst in on dpc
[5] average for a dpc picture
[10] best picture I've ever seen on dpc

or

[1] worst in this challenge
[5] average for this challenge
[10] best entry in this particular challenge.

All are perfectly valid voting scales, lead to completely different votes on any given picture, result in wildly different average votes cast and are all perfectly legitimate.

Personally I use one of these 4 scales on a fairly random basis each week, depending on mood. Isn't choice grand ?

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

09/25/2003 06:22:23 PM · #87

Originally posted by glimpses:

Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I would consider an average vote cast of 3.88 to be a form of unfair doctoring :)

I wouldn't say an average vote cast of 3.88 is unfair doctoring but I certainly would say it is a case of not knowing that the voting goes to 10! Face it if your average vote is a 3.88 you aren't using the system. A 5 should be an average photo and then 6 through 10 should be better than average and 1 to for would be below average. A voting average of 3.88 simply says this person has no idea what 6 through 10 is for and is only voting on a point system of 5.

I strongly suggest a revision in your mathematics.
Besides, I have no problem to publish all my votes.

There is nothing wrong with my math. I was giving you the benefit that when using a scale of 1 to 5 you are voting on the high side of that scale but since you insist...ok instead of using the 1 to 10 you are using a 1 to 7.76 score. Now could you please tell me which photo is yours so I can be sure to revise it and only vote on a 1 to 7.76 instead of using the 1 to 10.

As to publishing all your votes...go for it so I can sit here and think another person who simply thinks posting how they vote means something, cause it doesn't its when you give a photo a 1 or 2 and you leave a comment as to why you voted so low on it that it means something. If you score that low then you should give a reason why and if you score high you should also let the person know what you liked about the photo. But according to an average of a 3.88 vote cast that says you think the average photo around here is CRAP!

dacrazyrn

Nikon D300

09/25/2003 06:29:39 PM · #88

Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by dacrazyrn:
A 5 is what the average person can shoot. Does that make sense?

Again - that's your interpretation of the voting scale - it doesn't have to be that and it certainly hasn't been stated that it must be that.

3 out of 4 of those still have the word average in it at the 5 spot. (C: And that is the point. 5 is in the middle of 1-10. I am not a statistics freak or math major, but if people are using the scale effectively, their average should hit just above and below 5, shouldn't it?

09/25/2003 06:32:06 PM · #89

Originally posted by dacrazyrn:

Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by dacrazyrn:
A 5 is what the average person can shoot. Does that make sense?

Again - that's your interpretation of the voting scale - it doesn't have to be that and it certainly hasn't been stated that it must be that.

3 out of 4 of those still have the word average in it at the 5 spot. (C: And that is the point. 5 is in the middle of 1-10. I am not a statistics freak or math major, but if people are using the scale effectively, their average should hit just above and below 5, shouldn't it?

yes, but the point was in the rest of the words. The average point is established by where you set the limits and the population you compare against. If you change those limits, the average changes...

if 10 is best in challenge or 10 is best in the entire history of photography, the majority of your scores change significantly. If I consider 5 to be average out of all photos ever taken, then probably large majority of entries to any given challenge fall above the 5 point. If I consider it out of say average of all photos taken by professionals only, then the large majority of entries fall well under the 5 mark. Both scales are correct, from the current voting rules, but your average score in the second case would be probably about 3 and in the former case, probably about 8 or so.

Message edited by author 2003-09-25 18:34:15.

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

09/25/2003 06:34:30 PM · #90

Originally posted by OneSweetSin:

But according to an average of a 3.88 vote cast that says you think the average photo around here is CRAP!

You have too much faith in the infallibility of the current voting system.. and I will not go into maths.. because after all:

If my average is 3.88, of course I think that 3.88 is the average.. so what's the point??

Please note that it is your judgment that 3.88 is equivalent to crap.

dacrazyrn

Nikon D300

09/25/2003 06:43:17 PM · #91

Originally posted by Gordon:

So, we also need to have the byline, "I am a professional photographer and am voting on your entry as such. So, my scale will be 1 to 7 (which is equivelant to your 1 to 10 scale, you being a newbie and all), and I give you a 4 (which is above average on my scale). Congratulations!!" (C:

09/25/2003 07:00:16 PM · #92

Originally posted by glimpses:

Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
But according to an average of a 3.88 vote cast that says you think the average photo around here is CRAP!

You have too much faith in the infallibility of the current voting system.. and I will not go into maths.. because after all:

If my average is 3.88, of course I think that 3.88 is the average.. so what's the point??

Please note that it is your judgment that 3.88 is equivalent to crap.

Since you think mathmatics are important here...

What does an average vote of 3.88 mean?

In the life challenge it fell between 218th and 219th place with 234 places. In the sports challenge it fell between 77th place and 78th with only 79 places.

With the stats from just those two challenges a 3.88 would be a very low finish not an average.

Oh and just for the record...Beauty may be in the eye of the beholder but only a real person looks past the beauty and finds inner beauty.

Tokina AF 28-70mm f/2.8 ATX Pro-SV for Canon EOS

09/25/2003 07:16:33 PM · #93

Originally posted by OneSweetSin:

Oh and just for the record...Beauty may be in the eye of the beholder but only a real person looks past the beauty and finds inner beauty.

Wo Wo Wo.. nobody every told that to me.

Now I got it. You DID fall in love for me. =)

MWitt

Canon EOS-5D

09/25/2003 07:19:19 PM · #94

You guys crack me up! So serious! (:
//www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=39366
Snapshot? or Invented?, Planned?, Intended?
How can you tell?
Thoughts?

09/25/2003 07:22:56 PM · #95

Originally posted by glimpses:

Originally posted by OneSweetSin:

Oh and just for the record...Beauty may be in the eye of the beholder but only a real person looks past the beauty and finds inner beauty.

Wo Wo Wo.. nobody every told that to me.

Now I got it. You DID fall in love for me. =)

Yes I did and you promised not to tell anyone and now you just told EVERYONE.

ROFL hmmm maybe I should add a signature now to my posts that looks like...

09/25/2003 07:24:12 PM · #96

Originally posted by Olympian:

You guys crack me up! So serious! (:
//www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=39366
Snapshot? or Invented?, Planned?, Intended?
How can you tell?
Thoughts?

Every photography is, to some extent, an accident.
I think it would help somebody to remember that.

09/25/2003 07:25:39 PM · #97

Originally posted by OneSweetSin:

ROFL hmmm maybe I should add a signature now to my posts that looks like...

Don't leave me suspended.

I was going to sleep, but I would be sleepless without knowing it!!

09/25/2003 07:27:37 PM · #98

Originally posted by glimpses:

Originally posted by OneSweetSin:

ROFL hmmm maybe I should add a signature now to my posts that looks like...

Don't leave me suspended.

I was going to sleep, but I would be sleepless without knowing it!!

LOL just read the signature on the post its there! Just read the signature below if you missed it the first time.

fsieradzki

Sony DSC RX100

09/25/2003 07:29:34 PM · #99

I think that my toothpaste photo deserves more than a 4. What do you people think?