| Author | Thread |
|
|
09/12/2003 12:10:34 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by Jon Lucas:
I'm playing Devil's advocate here in this risky subject of religion, but here goes...
The problem with the argument above (particularly for sceptics) is that the list above features fact-based references, ie:
Sexual perversion is a fact of life
Sexual promiscuity is a fact of life
Abortion is a fact of life, permitted only now through a democratic society
Ecology is a non-debatable basis for life on earth
but
Religion is a belief and not a fact. |
Whoa! Are you saying that abortion is universally accepted and believed in? And how is praying to Mother Earth different than praying to God? People believing in religion is as much a fact of life as people believing in alternative sexual lifestyles. They both exist... neither one of them is universally accepted.
I don't think you see the message in that post.
|
|
|
|
09/12/2003 12:13:12 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by jonpink:
urban ledgend. |
Not according to Snopes.com
//www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/prayer.htm
|
|
|
|
09/12/2003 12:17:20 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by Jon Lucas:
The problem with the argument above (particularly for sceptics) is that the list above features fact-based references, ie:
Sexual perversion is a fact of life
Sexual promiscuity is a fact of life
Abortion is a fact of life, permitted only now through a democratic society
Ecology is a non-debatable basis for life on earth
but
Religion is a belief and not a fact. |
I believe your logic is flawed. Alternative lifestyles, Promiscuity, Abortion, and 'Praying' to 'Mother earth' are most certainly more a belief than a fact. They are all the basic tenets of a Secular Religion that has managed to become the only condoned state religion that is allowed under US law.
My religion requires that I accept without judgment the rights of others to believe and worship in this new religion. However, secularist have condemned any teachings that are contrary to their own as unconstitutional, and thus unlawful.
Freedom of religion in the USA is a myth. I will never send my children to worship in the state run public schools where they are teaching that prayer is unconstitutional, yet I am forced to tithe to this Godless church. In fact they take my money before I even get it...
I wonder if the IRS would be available to pass the plate at my church next Sunday...
|
|
|
|
09/12/2003 12:36:16 PM · #29 |
The reason why it isn't allowed is quite well explained in that snoopes.com link too though. The real freedom is from being forced to practice a religion that is not your own. While it is all very well for the Christians in a school to participate in their faith - what about people of other religions in that school ? Should they also be forced to pray ? That's one of the fundamental principles of freedom of speech and freedom of religion - you can say what you like, but it doesn't mean someone has to listen. You can also pray how you like, but you don't force others to hear it or practice it. Seems an often forgotten flip side to both of these concepts.
Should you also pray to Mecca before the game ?
Maybe conduct a Buddhist chant ?
Message edited by author 2003-09-12 12:39:02. |
|
|
|
09/12/2003 12:36:48 PM · #30 |
What is missing? Well...
Imagine
Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...
Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...
Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...
You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.
|
|
|
|
09/12/2003 03:52:24 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by jonpink:
Isn't religion all about adhearing to several hundred rules created several hundrend years ago? |
My religion doesn't have that many rules. That's probably why I adhere to it....I like the easy way...lol
|
|
|
|
09/12/2003 04:36:32 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by mavrik:
Originally posted by Gringo:
I am STOKED to see a few folks bold enough to experiment with the artistic side of photography in this challenge. |
Thanks, but it's worth a low 4 around here to do so. ;)
M |
4.2651 to be precise as of the last update .... |
|
|
|
09/12/2003 04:43:30 PM · #33 |
4.156 to be more accurate.
|
|
|
|
09/12/2003 05:34:01 PM · #34 |
Mine's not artictic, just boring, I guess. Wouldn't know from all (2) the comments...she says sarcastically. I'll be on the last page with you guys.
Ar tic tic? Moon must be full.
Message edited by author 2003-09-12 17:35:34.
|
|
|
|
09/12/2003 05:46:03 PM · #35 |
im with ya marjo - something tells me I'll be dead last on this one. The category said take the viewer back to another time...but I think most people put their own spin of take me back to another time that i can relate to....not everyone can relate to mine...but I guess nostalgia was not as wide open as i gave it credit to be. I guess my avg vote is too high - i'll try to be more on par the next time through...
|
|
|
|
09/12/2003 05:52:57 PM · #36 |
Nope....sorry to say, but I am going to be last
|
|
|
|
09/12/2003 06:05:25 PM · #37 |
You're below my 4.1? damn...I'm sorry lol
I was going for my alltime low score, but I'm ABOVE that!!!
M
|
|
|
|
09/12/2003 06:09:09 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
While it is all very well for the Christians in a school to participate in their faith - what about people of other religions in that school ? Should they also be forced to pray ? That's one of the fundamental principles of freedom of speech and freedom of religion - you can say what you like, but it doesn't mean someone has to listen. You can also pray how you like, but you don't force others to hear it or practice it. Seems an often forgotten flip side to both of these concepts.
|
As a public school teacher, I was told I could not share my Christian faith with the students -- that would be promoting religion. When an event called See You At the Pole occurred last year (a student led event, by the way), the central office issued a memo saying any teacher seen at the event was in danger of losing their job.
Across the hall was a history teacher who led her students in a Native American ritual involving a peace pipe. She also, on numerous occassions, led them in "ceremonies" for self-cleansing and introspection, as one of the tenets of her new age beliefs. She was permitted to do this, and no one ever told her not to.
I see a flip side okay.
As far as freedom and religion. I am assuming most people are equating "religion" with a spiritual belief. For me, "religion" is not so important as my relationship with Jesus Christ. In Him, I have found total freedom. So, I guess, I equate freedom with religion, using the term as some of you have used it.
And no, I do not have a shot in this challenge, but there are a few that I would proudly claim.
|
|
|
|
09/12/2003 06:18:46 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
... but you don't force others to hear it ... |
That comment can go both ways imo...how do you protect freedom of speech AND separation of church and state? Things that make you go hmmmm.
|
|
|
|
09/12/2003 06:28:53 PM · #40 |
There is a difference between studying religion (e.g. a class in comparative religion, history, art, etc.) and practicing the rituals of any one religion.
Like it or not, the Founding Fathers, after due deliberation, decided that Congress "shall make no law" regarding the establishment of religion, making our public institutions secular.
I would welcome a thorough discussion of religion and its effects -- good and bad -- on society in the past, present, and future if any. Just don't promote one view to the exclusion or derogation of others, or practice the rites of any of them. Schools are for learning secular skills. The family and the church (or equivalent) are the place to explore and practice religious doctrine. |
|
|
|
09/12/2003 07:32:57 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by jonpink:
Likewise, I can't see any connection between religion and freedom at all? There are a lot of people submitting religion images though...? |
Two connections between religion and freedom: First, one of the founding freedoms of America (as discussed and debated above) was the freedom of religion - the freedom to choose, who, what and/or how you want to worship. The very fact that we can have this discussion is a testement to how powerful and important this freedom is. Try having this discussion, or professing your belief in atheism/agnosticism on a street corner in Saudi Arabia, Iran, or North Korea. I don't think it would be a very pleasant experience. We may all struggle with where the limits are on issue of prayer in school, defining "religion" in a secular setting, etc., but you're freedom to choose not to believe is just as central to those freedom of religion shots (at least in an idealistic sense) as my freedom to worship Christ. (It is interesting that all the freedom of religion shots that I recall were Christian themed.)
Second, as a Christian, I am very much more free than I ever was as an agnostic. I'm free from doubt, free from fear, free from bondage to drugs and alcohol, free from the need to conform to the image of the world, to be cool, to be popular, to compete on the worlds terms. I have so much freedom - just because you don't understand it doesn't mean I don't feel it. Remember the challenge description: photograph what freedom means to you. For those who have experienced it, this is a natural subject for expressing what freedom means to them.
As far as all those hundreds of laws you see in religion, consider this passage: "And He said to him, "‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." (Matt. 22:37-40) In other words, all those "rules" boil down to two things: Love God, and love your neighbor (i.e. everyone around you). Or, if you prefer a John Lennon quote, then better than Imagine would be: "All you need is love".
|
|
|
|
09/12/2003 07:43:46 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
There is a difference between studying religion (e.g. a class in comparative religion, history, art, etc.) and practicing the rituals of any one religion.
Like it or not, the Founding Fathers, after due deliberation, decided that Congress "shall make no law" regarding the establishment of religion, making our public institutions secular. |
Maybe you didn't get the significance of what Karmat said. She cannot even discuss here beliefs, because they are Christian, in school. However, the history teacher, because her religion is covered under psuedo-scholarly ideals, is free to not only discuss hers, but to teach it (probably as fact) and to require her students to practice it as well. Just this morning was a story on the radio about a school system introducing Transcendental Meditation into their cariculum under the guise of helping students cope with stress (or something like that - I was distracted for part of the story, so didn't totally get all the details) - TM is derivitive of eastern mysticism and contrary to Christian principals, but you can bet that if it's successfully introduced, kids will be required to participate and subject to ridicule and harassment, particularly from teachers, for not taking part.
So the point is that there is not a separation of church and state, or church and schools, but a double standard that excludes christianity and promotes "alternatives". |
|
|
|
09/12/2003 08:10:23 PM · #43 |
My sister teaches at the grade school level in the public school system. She is far from being a religious extremist and she feels her classroom is not the proper place for discussing religion.
She was however rather surprised when she was told to teach the Holy Days of the Islamic, Hindu and Buddhist religions along with the rituals performed on these Holy Days. She was also told that any mention of Christ during a discussion of Christmas or Easter was cause for termination. Christmas was to be about malls and a fat guy in a red suit and Easter was to be taught as a day for giant rabbits and chocolate.
I have a feeling that most people don't know what is happening in the school system we are forced to pay for. It is not about forcing people to perform any rituals of any specific belief. It's about suppressing Christianity.
Why? Beats me...
|
|
|
|
09/12/2003 08:25:22 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by myqyl:
My sister teaches at the grade school level in the public school system. She is far from being a religious extremist and she feels her classroom is not the proper place for discussing religion.
She was however rather surprised when she was told to teach the Holy Days of the Islamic, Hindu and Buddhist religions along with the rituals performed on these Holy Days. She was also told that any mention of Christ during a discussion of Christmas or Easter was cause for termination. Christmas was to be about malls and a fat guy in a red suit and Easter was to be taught as a day for giant rabbits and chocolate.
I have a feeling that most people don't know what is happening in the school system we are forced to pay for. It is not about forcing people to perform any rituals of any specific belief. It's about suppressing Christianity.
Why? Beats me... |
That is so very true. I'm in an area that is a heavy Christian population and the Christmas Party at the school has to be called a Holiday Party.
Although the teachers aren't premitted to mention the Christ child they do send out a letter to parents prior to the party telling us that it is to be referred to as a holiday party and no child will be punished for sharing relgious beliefs in the form of greeting cards or for sharing there own beliefs cause the party is teach kids different cultures. What it ends up being is the opportunity for the kids themselves to express their own beliefs. My little boy and I every year print out the The Candy Cane Story and attach a candy cane to the story and then he signs his name. That becomes his Christmas card. For 3 years now I have gotten a nice note back from the teacher thanking me for doing what she isn't premitted to do.
//www.purestoke.org/candy.htm
|
|
|
|
09/12/2003 10:29:43 PM · #45 |
Part of the problem is that Christianity is the only major religion to encompass a duty to prostlytize and convert the heathens, rather than acknowledge that those practices and beliefs may just be another manifestation of the One True God. I mean, if there's really one OTG, then that must be who Muslims mean when they say Allah; there certainly can't be any other gods around. Same with Jews and YHWH, witches and Gaia, or whatever. I mean either there's one god, or more than one -- can't have it both ways (the Trinity notwithstanding).
Buddhists haven't been trying to set aside time in school to practice their rituals in the classroom. I don't think Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Jains, Zoroastrian, Rastafarians or anyone else is either. I don't support the active practice of ANY religion in the schools, but I think it is the 2000 year history of Christians forcing their beliefs on others which has seemingly singled them out for particular attention in this situation. |
|
|
|
09/13/2003 02:39:18 AM · #46 |
GeneralE, your logic is a little flawed... If I claim there is One True God, it does not follow that everyone that claims their God is the One True God are all talking about the same deity... Logic 101 aside, most Holy Texts speak of false gods...
However, logic aside, I as a Christian pray to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael... So I do believe that the Christians, Jews and Muslims are all praying to the same deity.
There is, by the way, a religion that is actively proselytizing and seeking conversions. It is the New Age religion and it is currently the state sponsored religion of the USA. It's rituals and practices are taught to school children every day. And our tax dollars pay for it...
Edit : This thread sure has come a long way from a comment about Freedom to Spot Edit :) Any chance we can move this over to Rant?
Message edited by author 2003-09-13 02:41:14.
|
|
|
|
09/13/2003 03:51:09 AM · #47 |
Never mind the fact that the Muslim religion is actively expanding, through both peaceful and not so peaceful means, throughout the world. The idea that Christianity is the only religion that prostlytizes is pretty silly. Most anyone who believes they have an answer to the questions of life is going to attempt to share or spread them to some extent.
And, myqyl is right... and wrong. :) Right in that two religions who claim to worship the one true God are not necessarily worshipping, well, the one true God. If I believe that GeneralE is the one true God, and what GeneralE teaches is in conflict with what the one true God of Christianity and/or the one true God of Islam teaches, the GeneralE is not the God of either of those religions. Therefore I would not be worshiping the same God as Christianity.
He's wrong in the sense that, IMO, and contrary to popular myth, Christians and Muslims do not worship the same God. In the Torah/Pentatuch, God speaking through Moses identifies Isaac as the chosen line. In the Koran (based on my very limited understanding), Allah speaking to/through Mohammed identifies Ishmael as the chosen line. (As I indicated, I'm not very familiar with specific teachings of the Koran, but that's my understanding of the beliefs of Muslims based on some research that I've done in the past.) Since both Christians and Muslims believe the one true God to be perfect and infallable, and these two beliefs are in direct conflict, then we cannot be worshiping the same God. At least one of these beliefs must be wrong. This is just one small, but vitally significant, point where the God of Christianity is contrary to the beliefs of Islam.
(I left out issues of Christianity vs. Judaism, just because I would contend that these two religions do in fact worship the same God, because Christianity embraces the entirity of the Jewish scriptures, and sees Christ as the fulfillment of those scriptures. I don't know, but assume, that the Jewish perspective may be different.) |
|
|
|
09/13/2003 10:52:50 AM · #48 |
Since this is still on the front page, I will just add to what Scott is saying. Christianity teaches that Jesus Christ is the son of the one true God. For the Muslim's I know, and admittedly I know much less about Islam than Christianity, Jesus Christ was a good man/teacher/prophet, NOT the son of God. Since believing that Christ is the son of God is paramount to the Christian belief, it seems to me that Allah is not the Christian God, and the Christian God is not Allah.
|
|
|
|
09/13/2003 11:40:51 AM · #49 |
But if the Christion God is the one true god, the Allah, by definition, cannot exist. Either Christians are right, and there's only one god, in which case God and Allah must be two manifestations of the same entity, or else there are (at least) two gods, and the basic tenet of Christianity is flawed.
If God is all-knowing and all powerful and omni-present, "how dare you" question his choice to appear to different peoples in different guises?
If there were truly an all-powerful and loving god, Isaac and Ishmael, those two naughty brothers, would have been long ago given a time-out and sent to their room without dessert.
Ever notice that most religious ORGANIZATIONS do not follow the precepts and teachings they require of their adherents?
Sorry, I haven't even finished my first cup of coffee yet ... no offense meant to believers of any ilk. I just believe that religion and civil government serve different functions and must be kept separate. I should also remember that logic and faith are mutually exclusive systems ....
Message edited by author 2003-09-13 11:41:53. |
|
|
|
09/13/2003 12:55:38 PM · #50 |
| Thank God/dess I'm a pantheist! I sometimes feel the downfall of any religious practice is due to the human INTERPRETATION of what their God/dess may have wanted for them in the first place. Humans are fallible. How can we presume to know and then dictate to other humans how any God/dess would want us to live and worship. Reverence for the earth and all her inhabitants is what I strive for, though being human, I am flawed in my attempts. |
|
