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09/05/2003 09:48:18 AM · #1 |
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09/05/2003 09:54:17 AM · #2 |
Thanks John, I'm partway through it, and will continue reading throughout the day. So far, it's captured my attention. :-)
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09/05/2003 10:27:39 AM · #3 |
I've seen a lot of the same behaviours here that i saw 10 years ago when I ran another virtual community. What is different about dpc is the creative aspect. In many ways I think the group community aspect is quite detrimental to creativity, particularly when there is a reward mechanism in place.
Consider here, there is a generally accepted norm or style for good photography in the general groupthink sense of what good is. If you conform to that standard, you get high scores, if you don't you get punished with low scores until you conform or leave.
It is also self-re-enforcing. New people come to the site, see the styles of photography that do well here and have to either conform or score badly or leave. Some people do rail against this but in general the will of the masses wins out week after week. It also means you look at the winners more, and consciously or sub-consciously emulate the styles that do well - after all, it is a contest - people enter to do well, in general.
The same sort of inertia exists for change - what has worked before must remain the same, even though the dynamics have changed and the membership is larger. What works for a challenge with 50 people entering may not work with 300 people entering. But everyone has their own personal level of 'to many to vote on' I think this may be like the group at the party - until it happens, everyone is going to say it shouldn't happen and even actively vote against it, but once a change happens, be it tiered challenges, skill level challenges or however we have to fragment the challenges to cope with the volume, very quickly the majority will feel that the new way is 'how it should be' and 'how it should always be' and just move on with it being normal. Because, no matter how much people complain or say it shouldn't happen, if dpc is going to grow much larger, the current format cannot sustain the volume of entries without some modification.
The mud model of guilds or more focused subgroups is probably a good pattern to try to emulate - smaller collections of people with more focused interests that can work synergistically to provide better and more considered feedback to each other, improving comment/vote ratios and enhancing the experience for the current and future users of the site. |
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09/05/2003 10:48:59 AM · #4 |
| Gordon, you are to be congratulated and commended for the insight and mature wisdom in your last paragraph. Your doctorate is in the mail. |
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09/05/2003 11:03:06 AM · #5 |
| Gordon: Excellent summation. |
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09/05/2003 11:08:48 AM · #6 |
| Gordon that summation was right on. |
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09/05/2003 11:16:22 AM · #7 |
Right on.... I just finished reading the article, very interesting.
hmm, neurotic isn't that far off is it?
So,, how about a Macro group? landscape, sky, human interest...
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09/05/2003 12:30:46 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Consider here, there is a generally accepted norm or style for good photography in the general groupthink sense of what good is. If you conform to that standard, you get high scores, if you don't you get punished with low scores until you conform or leave.
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I was reading a book about Henri-Cartier Bresson last night and kept thinking about how low some of his shots would have scored on dpc. |
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09/05/2003 01:37:35 PM · #9 |
Hi, got in from work, saw this thread and thought I want to write something here, so here is my 10 bucks worth.
In my HMO the group characteristics at DPC depend on the activity. The main activities for the majority of users are two fold,
1. Participation in Competitions
2. Participation in forums
Each of these take on two very different group postures, with some crossover between them. Forums are generally the most congenial and bring out the more pleasant aspects of human nature, although on occasion there is a load of moaning but this from what I have seen is far less frequent. People on the whole chit chat, give each other advice and become internet/DPC buddies. With forums we communicate without much threat of ridicule, we are not being tested, we are not subject to scores and comments on something that we have produced, there is nothing to deliver here except loose opinions and banter.
However, when it comes to competition time (I̢۪m commenting on Open Competions here as I have yet to register as a member ) it̢۪s a whole different ball game.
When we enter competitions it is about success and climbing the tree to those ribbons, our ego̢۪s are at play inside if not outside, egos are fragile exhibits and not many people are going to display them openly but believe me they are there in each and every one of us. To a degree it̢۪s gloves off time. The mentality of DPC as a whole becomes narrower as we each develop tunnel vision and become fixated with out hourly scores. It gives us a buzz, we are being judged and we want to be judged well. With this desire comes our downfall, the scores, the comments and as we have seen recently the nasty emails etc. Group spirit, team work, togetherness, whatever you wish to call it fly̢۪s out of the window with a vengeance, we loose all our objectivity when our efforts are being battered and basted by the masses.
This in turn bestows rejection to the very heart of our photographic prowess as we perceive it, which in turn brings out all of our defences in their many forms. Thus, for the most part any group spirit becomes distant if not lost in the quagmire of torment and frustration.
What I think happens here is people initially join because they think it̢۪s a cool site and they like the idea of learning through the challenges and week after week they enter photographs. Week after week most of them are disappointed. So what happens is that after a while it becomes force major, as Gordon said we either follow the pack or become despondent and give up because we feel that our efforts are not being rewarded. Basically it is like feeling unloved, and I am sure that for some people this can be an extremely strong emotion.
From my own experience at DPC, which I have to say is limited I have had some great comments and only a few harsh ones, but never have I scored over 5.9. Now this should not matter as I can learn from the experience or can I? If you want to be good and in the common mans view being good is being accepted, then you must learn from the criticisms and the advice and soldier on.
What happens at DPC is that we become unaccepted on a regular basis by our fellow members (why not go to the whipping boy once a week for some physical pain?) and those comments are not always that helpful are they? The critiques that everyone is so eager to get rarely come and we are left with a feeling of flatness that is until the next challenge when with high hopes we all subject ourselves to the same ritual again.
My point is here is that not all group interaction is positive all of the time and if you were to sum up the emotions that individuals go through on DPC during competition time I would hazard a guess and suggest that the negative outweighed the positive for the majority of people.
Now I can hear some of you now, I don̢۪t feel negative emotions, honestly, none??? Maybe we need to lighten the load a little for some of us, if we can̢۪t take the heat we should get out of the kitchen for a challenge or two anyway, others might like the constant buzz of seeing the scores each and every hour, others and I am sure there are a few, might simply take it all in their stride, who knows, I only know how I deal with it.
Ok so what is the solution, how does DPC become more positive and helpful? Well there are a number of issues, the number of challenge entries obviously has to take a top priority, there are just too many to vote for sometimes and most of us do have to wash, eat, work and sleep etc. Ok, so
1. What about having parallel challenges limited to a fixed number of people where everyone who enters has to vote for all of the entries or their entry does not get counted. Say 150 max for example. Some form of first come first serve registration where when the challenges are announced the first 150 to register get to put their pics in, if you miss out on that you register for the other parallel challenges instead, you still get the same time to prepare the image right.
Alternatively, DPC could select random members and tell them which challenges they can participate in, just a thought.
2. Let’s make the voting more structured as has been mentioned many times on DPC, a average score based on say – composition, technique, perspective, relevance to the challenge, general appeal etc. etc.
3. Have some longer term challenges, a bi-weekly, monthly etc.
4. Challenge topic suggestions could be pooled and voted on.
5. There could be a critiquing page that you can leave your image on for a day or so and get feedback, after which it is removed.
6. New lesson notification and download facilities would be really neat.
These are just my opinions and suggestions, take them as you will, and have a great day or a goodnight, whichever it is .
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09/05/2003 02:15:12 PM · #10 |
Some good suggestions in here. I will just say a couple things:
1) There is a massive resistance to restructuring the challenge process to deal with the numbers. Any time a suggestion to do is made, a huge chorus of voices insists on maintaining the status quo.
Basically, the only way a restructuring is ever going to happen is for the Admins to just implement something, using their positions as controllers of the site to do so. They should do this, in spite of the moaning and groaning, for the good of the site.
2) Everyone should keep something in mind: there are only 3 ribbons for every challenge. When you have 100-300 entries, it is just the nature of the beast: only *3* can be ribboned. Even if every single one is excellent, only *3) can be ribboned. So you have 300 pics trying to fit into 3 spaces, only 3 can fit - it's almost like playing the lottery. Not to mention there are people playing here from all over the world, and that's some stiff competition. Some of the people that are good are very, very good.
That's why a) not getting ribbon doesn't automatically mean you're not skilled at creating compelling images and b) I've always pushed for methods of getting increased recognition to the non-ribboning participants in a challenge, i.e. additional best of category winners through pop-up menus, like most creative, most original, etc. . .
Again, it's all talk unless someone codes it.
Message edited by author 2003-09-05 14:16:23.
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09/05/2003 03:07:39 PM · #11 |
I think challenge submitters are looking for 2 things:
1) An evalutation of their work (do I suck, am I getting better, etc)
2) Competition
Unfortunately, when no comments are made on a submission the score has to communicate both evaluation and competitive position. This is where a submitter can take a beating! Does a 4.5 mean I suck or that I am not as good as jmsetzler, kiwiness, Jacko, or one of the other site top scorers. Most people can handle the fact that others are better, but getting the impression that their photograpy sucks is a little harder to deal with.
One possible solution is to separate evalution from competitive position.
From a competitive perspective, a ranking system might be more affective than scoring. If there are 150 photos, rank them 1 through 150. Most people can compare one photo to another more consistently than they can assign a score. A ranking UI is a little challenging, but with some work it could be made very simple. For the "update stats" junkies, show the cumulative rank 23/150 rather than a score.
From an evaluative perspective, a more subjective scoring mechanism would be helpful. Perhaps a scale like:
1) average snapshot
2) good snapshot
3) great snapshot
4) average photograph
5) good photograph
6) great photograph
7) excellent photograph
8) award winning photograph
9) museum qualify photograph
I didn't get ten, but I think this illustrates the idea. A comments section would follow as it does today.
Benefits:
- I don't think this is a major deviation from the current site concept
- Ranking is more fun than voting 1-10
- Showing current position (23/150) is exciting
- You can be 98/150 and still feel good about having a "good" photograph
Just thinking out loud......
Message edited by author 2003-09-05 15:25:26. |
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09/25/2003 05:55:37 PM · #12 |
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09/25/2003 06:46:46 PM · #13 |
Speaking of "voting scales", I just recently found out about PhotoBlink (they are having a contest where you can win a Gitzo CF tripod). While perusing the site, I found this quote in their "rules". I find this scale pretty interesting...
On PhotoBlink, we are using the voting scale, suggested by Richard.
"As a casual observer and fan of this site, there seems to be some debate on how to base one's vote from 1 to 10. I do believe the written comments (as many have noted) should be the foremost priority explaining WHY one likes a photo and fortunately the comments are rated to encourage this. That said, there is indeed a 1 to 10 scoring system and perhaps it may be of assistance for viewers, particularly new viewers, to have further defined by words the rating system. Obviously what moves and bothers each person is individualistic and personal, but some definition to the scale would provide some guideline for consistency.
If someone has taken the trouble to post, obviously there is something they care about in the photo and/or they are just starting photogrphy or experimenting so any vote from 1 to 10 should be at least in some way encouraging, as if you were talking to a friend, in person. The rating definitions would also need to be applicable to all subject matter. For what it's worth, may I offer the following on this:
I would find myself first "sub-categorizing" into four groups. Either the photograph compared to others on the web site is obviously great (10, 9), quite good (8, 7), interesting in some way (6, 5) or lacking interest or technique (4,3,2,1). I believe it is important to put a little more description in defining the higher ratings as this is what most viewers will in fact use since many are experienced photographers and this is where opinions begin to "split hairs." So:
10: Inspirational. The photographer has used exemplary technique, creativity and/or perseverance to quite uniquely convey the essence of the subject matter and/or moment. One enjoys viewing the image again and again, for the aesthetics, interpretive, or documentary value and there is nothing that could possibly be changed to improve upon it. The photograph has magic.
9: Excellent. This is a great image with exemplary execution that supports the subject matter. There is, however, just a very slight hint of something that takes away from the unique, "magic" or completeness that would have made this a 10, and this aspect was likely well beyond the control of the photographer.
8: Very Good. This is a photo where everything came together very well for the subject matter to become compelling, but one aspect of the image in technique or composition is just slightly distracting that could have been enhanced by the photographer. It is obviously helpful to comment on what this aspect is.
7. Good. The photographer has presented subject matter of considerable interest, but one aspect of the image, in technique or composition is felt to be distracting that could have been enhanced by the photographer. To define the aspect would be helpful to the photographer.
6. Interesting. The subject matter has some interest, but one aspect in technique or composition is obviously distracting, and could have been enhanced by the photographer. Again, it is so helpful to define the aspect.
5. Average. The subject matter has received a basic level of photographic competency, and it is evident what the photographer was trying to achieve, however, it is lacking a spark of interest or artistry to raise it above average.
4. Interest Unclear. It is unclear why this photograph was taken, as the subject matter does not provoke interest, however, there is a basic level of photographic competency. Perhaps the photographer is experimenting or trying new subject matter, and any advice is likely helpful from others who shoot the same type of genre. It is also helpful if the photographer could help explain what they were trying to achieve.
3, 2, & 1. Experimenting. There is not a basic level of photographic competency evident, which is quite distracting from what ever the photographer is desiring to achieve in their subject matter (the more distracting the less value ultimately to 1). The photographer may be learning or trying something totally experimental, which is greatly assisted if they could explain if they are beginners, or what they were trying to achieve, to encourage comment and assistance (then again, who knows, maybe they are on the cutting edge of something new!)." |
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09/25/2003 07:13:57 PM · #14 |
Excellent suggestion. Thanks.
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09/25/2003 07:52:59 PM · #15 |
| My boyfriend and I marvel at the idiotic remarks people get away with in these forums without getting flamed. All in all, I think we're a fairly intelligent, accepting group of folks. Now if I could only teach you all how to vote ;P |
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09/25/2003 10:04:18 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by indigo997:
My boyfriend and I marvel at the idiotic remarks people get away with in these forums without getting flamed. All in all, I think we're a fairly intelligent, accepting group of folks. Now if I could only teach you all how to vote ;P |
:-) |
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09/26/2003 03:21:00 AM · #17 |
Groups are much more fun when you're the leader and everyone follows submissively. :)
Message edited by author 2003-09-26 03:21:30. |
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