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09/05/2007 01:01:06 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
You should:
keep an open mind to other interpretations of the challenge topic.
*
consider the challenge topic when voting, and adjust your score accordingly.
*
Looks like oil and water...
:-P |
Yes, it does to me, too.
In all fairness (to RayEthier in his previous post), the rules have been amended, since I wrote what I did (below). While I welcome this change, it doesn't, from my point of view, go far enough and, consequently, cannot move me to change my mind or the words I've employed to articulate it.
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09/05/2007 01:06:55 PM · #27 |
I know that the DNMC topics and all run the gamut...but I think that if all of the people who score low (or high actually) would state in a COMMENT (slim and rare these days) that the photo does not MEET the challenge... maybe more people would realize that DNMC is something that IS important and should not be sought after... or rather... sought after to the nth degree. If the people being scored low because the photo dnmc, if they are not told... they will never learn.
Just my inimitable 2 cents!
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09/05/2007 01:16:38 PM · #28 |
There's another side to this that no one seems to remember. Nobody seems to complain when their clever concept to meet the theme earns them a higher score.... I offer one of my own photos as proof..
Chrome? yes.... Clever? Maybe.... 5.6 for a score? Very generous..... It wouldn't get it in free study......
Themes are a double edge sword, but no one seems to complain when their score is higher than it might deserve without the connection to the theme..
In the end you have to remember to whom you are presenting the photo.
Dex
Message edited by author 2007-09-05 13:17:35.
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09/05/2007 01:20:20 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by mattmac:
DNMC, as a comment, seems so arrogant to me. Who am I to say whether an image meets the challenge or not? |
Um... A voter?
Originally posted by mattmac:
When I vote, I tend to give the photographer the benefit of the doubt when it comes to interpreting the Challenge Description. |
Your perogative, but not when it's pretty clear.
Originally posted by mattmac:
I would much rather see a well executed image that is either shoehorned or stretched to meet the Challenge, than to see a boring, poorly executed snapshot that meets the challenge description to it's absolute literal definition. |
Both should be judged equally. A bad photo meeting the challenge IS THE SAME as a good photo NOT meeting the challenge.
Originally posted by mattmac:
I'm here for the great images...not to ensure that contestants follow my interpretation of the challenge description exactly. |
Some are open, some are narrow. Challenges as well as minds.
Originally posted by mattmac:
If you give a "DNMC" comment or a DNMC score of a "1"...that's your right as voter to do that. But I would question as to what your motives really are. |
And the answer 9 times out of 10 would be "someone who takes this site with the proper amount of seriousness".
Egads, liberals.
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09/05/2007 02:06:20 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by raish:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by zeuszen:
The energy wasted and lost here, IMO, could better be invested, if it were understood that an emphasis on topicality existed for the creative benefit of the entrants and not for the righteous glee of the uninitiated." |
The latter part of this comment is rather gratuitous as it acribes a value that could never be substantiated in any tangible manner. While it remains true that individuals may indeed be uninitiated, it is mere speculation to suggest that the topically caters to their "righteous glee".
Ray |
Nah, that's an observation - it's empirical. |
Indeed, and empirical evidence is based on personal observation, which for the most part cannot be substantiated with hard evidence. This whole realm depends on perception, and that I fear cannot be quantified by strangers, as we have not one scintilla of evidence to substantiate our claim, except for those of course that are "clairvoyants" :O)
Ray
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09/05/2007 02:11:18 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
You should:
keep an open mind to other interpretations of the challenge topic.
*
consider the challenge topic when voting, and adjust your score accordingly.
*
Looks like oil and water...
:-P |
Yes, it does to me, too.
In all fairness (to RayEthier in his previous post), the rules have been amended, since I wrote what I did (below). While I welcome this change, it doesn't, from my point of view, go far enough and, consequently, cannot move me to change my mind or the words I've employed to articulate it. |
I wholeheartedly agree with this comment, since I earnestly believe that some might be a tad draconian in their "Adjustment of scores", with the ensuing results being that a person might see their scores plummet dramatically.
We all have our interpretations of the written word, but to me an adjustment is a "slight tinkering" and not the wholesale destruction that some seem to propose.
As is the case in all things written, there is always room for improvement.
Ray |
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09/05/2007 02:13:50 PM · #32 |
| My reference to empirical research was, not unusually for me, tongue in cheek. It was not pertinent to the problem under discussion here, whatever that is. For my facetiousness I apologise, but please don't forgive me. |
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09/05/2007 09:04:27 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by mattmac:
When I vote, I tend to give the photographer the benefit of the doubt when it comes to interpreting the Challenge Description. |
Your perogative, but not when it's pretty clear.
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Pretty clear to you maybe. But, surely, you have been wrong before?
When you look at an image and think "DNMC", do you at least consider for a moment that the photog may have seen something that you can't/don't?
That's where I give the artist the benefit of the doubt.
Don't get me wrong...if you don't like the image, or it doesn't reach you, then vote it low. That's why there's a range of numbers to choose from. All I am saying is, most people don't take the time to think beyond their narrow scope of interpretation to understand that there may be other interpretations.
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by mattmac:
I would much rather see a well executed image that is either shoehorned or stretched to meet the Challenge, than to see a boring, poorly executed snapshot that meets the challenge description to it's absolute literal definition. |
Both should be judged equally. A bad photo meeting the challenge IS THE SAME as a good photo NOT meeting the challenge.
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I don't buy that for a minute. A bad image that meets the challenge is still a bad image. For example...let's say you start at "5", like many people do. Below, I see the Good getting an 8, while the "Bad" gets a 6.
Good Image
Composition: 1
Wow Factor: 1
Technicals: 1
Meets Challenge: 0
Bad Image
Composition: 0
Wow Factor: 0
Technicals: 0
Meets Challenge: 1
Or do you weigh "Meeting the Challenge" heavier than the other (example) items for some reason?
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by mattmac:
I'm here for the great images...not to ensure that contestants follow my interpretation of the challenge description exactly. |
Some are open, some are narrow. Challenges as well as minds.
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I just wish there were more open minds.
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by mattmac:
If you give a "DNMC" comment or a DNMC score of a "1"...that's your right as voter to do that. But I would question as to what your motives really are. |
And the answer 9 times out of 10 would be "someone who takes this site with the proper amount of seriousness". |
I take my voting, my comments and submissions with the proper amount seriousness. I actually look at the images for more than the cursory 3 seconds that many others do...I try to learn from the images I vote on. I try to understand what the photographer's intentions were. I try to take my time to be thoughtful with my vote. Meeting the Challenge is just one of the several submission attributes that I use to calculate my vote.
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Egads, liberals. |
What?
Where?
Who...Me?
For wanting people to acknowledge that they may not know everything?
For wanting voters to understand that there may be a creative interpretation of a challenge description that they might not have thought of?
For wanting DPC to be a creative and artistic venture?
Or the fact that I don't wear clothes, eat granola, and live in a tree...?
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09/05/2007 09:27:23 PM · #34 |
You don't wear clothes? Must be hard to shop then. Most places I go to have a sign on the door - No Shirt, No Shoes, No service.
Message edited by author 2007-09-05 21:28:05. |
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09/06/2007 08:44:55 AM · #35 |
Ok, let me try and summarize the ideas regarding the DNMC issues I've come across so far (without judging them - yet):
A) Keeping the system the way it is (it's up to the voter to decide if and how images that in his opinion do not meet the challenge should be rated)
B) An additional DNMC checkbox that could be checked during voting
B1) Soft disqualification of images considered DNMC by a certain percentage of voters (they would be ranked after all images meeting the challenge)
B2)  eschelar's DNMC bag
B3) Disqualification of images considered DNMC by a certain percentage of voters
All the three options for B could include a review process.
C) An additional scale where one could indicate how well an image meets the challenge (as suggested by Bear_Music in this thread)
C1) - C3) same as above as a function of the votes given on this second scale
C4) Applying a weighting of the two scales to get the final score
D) Allowing photographers to provide additional information to their pictures that can be viewed during the challenge
Is there any way we could have polls in the forum? Not to decide anything, but just to see how popular the different ideas are. People who are most active in the forum do not necessarily represent the opinion of a majority. A poll would also show how many of the users actually care about this issue. If the number is negligible, we can stop the discussion once and for all. If it's significant, we know something should be done about it. |
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09/06/2007 08:51:57 AM · #36 |
| I keep it simple. If a photo only obtusely meets the challenge I take off one point. If a photo in no way meets the challenge, I take off two points. |
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09/06/2007 09:10:03 AM · #37 |
Originally posted by Sam94720:
B) An additional DNMC checkbox that could be checked during voting
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I gave this idea at least a year ago, then someone said - ohh this guy has lots of ideas. |
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09/06/2007 09:19:15 AM · #38 |
Confucius say "No brokee, no fixee."
Message edited by author 2007-09-06 09:30:05.
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09/06/2007 09:23:13 AM · #39 |
| I don't think there is anything that needs to fixed. |
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09/06/2007 09:54:33 AM · #40 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Here ya go! Feels like old times. :-D |
ssshhhhh! I think we're in the quiet part of the show. :P
BTW - Anyone seen the popcorn maker? Could be running low here soon. |
Yawns...what's for breakfast? I heard all the commotion and wanted to watch! |
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09/06/2007 10:03:15 AM · #41 |
Originally posted by bergiekat:
Yawns...what's for breakfast? I heard all the commotion and wanted to watch! |
(re)hash browns. :) |
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09/06/2007 10:04:09 AM · #42 |
Why do we need anything other than what the the good Lord Langdon has already given us: our vote and our comment?
How about this option? When you come across an image that you think DNMC:
1) comment on how you feel about the image (if you are so moved)
2) vote how you feel about the image
3) pick up the pieces of your shattered life and move on. |
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09/06/2007 12:50:42 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Ok, let me try and summarize the ideas regarding the DNMC issues I've come across so far... |
D) Amend the rules (by removing "You should: ...Ă¢€Â¢consider the challenge topic when voting, and adjust your score accordingly" and by encouraging entrants to "consider the challenge topic when submitting images" instead.
Message edited by author 2007-09-06 12:51:00. |
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09/06/2007 12:58:28 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
D) Amend the rules (by removing "You should: ...Ă¢€Â¢consider the challenge topic when voting, and adjust your score accordingly" and by encouraging entrants to "consider the challenge topic when submitting images" instead. |
The best idea so far...
Originally posted by mattmac:
I don't think there is anything that needs to fixed. |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Confucius say "No brokee, no fixee." |
My assesment of the situation. (feel free to quote me;P )
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09/06/2007 01:22:43 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
D) Amend the rules (by removing "You should: ...Ă¢€Â¢consider the challenge topic when voting, and adjust your score accordingly" and by encouraging entrants to "consider the challenge topic when submitting images" instead. |
No. Challenge topic is a very important, if not THE most important, piece of DPChallenge. It's what makes DPChallenge unique. The weekly challenge topic is the assignment or "challenge" to meet. You have 7 days to meet the deadline. Exciting, challenging, and sometimes quite difficult.
Participants on both sides of the equation (submitters and voters) must take the challenge topic into consideration - always.
There are numerous other photography sites out there for those that just want to submit their prettiest photo every week.
Keep the "challenge" in DPChallenge!
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09/06/2007 01:54:36 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Participants on both sides of the equation (submitters and voters) must take the challenge topic into consideration - always.
There are numerous other photography sites out there for those that just want to submit their prettiest photo every week.
Keep the "challenge" in DPChallenge! |
I stand corrected.....
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09/06/2007 02:10:24 PM · #47 |
What the rules say:
---------------------------
You should:
- keep an open mind to other interpretations of the challenge topic.
- consider the challenge topic when voting, and adjust your score accordingly.
What the DNMC Nazi do:
-----------------------------------------------
You should:
- Not keep an open mind to other interpretations of the challenge topic.
- Not only consider the challenge topic but make it the only criteria when voting.
Yup, water and oil alright that is rules and voters.
Message edited by author 2007-09-06 14:12:47.
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09/06/2007 03:33:27 PM · #48 |
Should be another poll:
When you read a challenge description, it makes you
a) think of shots that will meet the challenge's most obvious/widely accepted interpretation
b) think of shots that will meet the challenge's lesser known/out of the box interpretation
c) head straight to wikipedia and search for a way to interpret the challenge so it is easier to shoot for/let's you shoot something you know will score well all under the guise of creative expression
d) what challenge description? |
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09/06/2007 03:39:05 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by yanko:
What the rules say:
---------------------------
You should:
- keep an open mind to other interpretations of the challenge topic.
- consider the challenge topic when voting, and adjust your score accordingly.
What the DNMC Nazi do:
-----------------------------------------------
You should:
- Not keep an open mind to other interpretations of the challenge topic.
- Not only consider the challenge topic but make it the only criteria when voting.
Yup, water and oil alright that is rules and voters. |
... and you would base that argument on what standards of evaluation. I have yet to see one scintilla of evidence that would support the argument that the DNMC Nazis (as you call them) make the challenge topic the only criteria when voting.
What we have here is yet another example of people chasing windmills and seeing conspiracies where none exist.
Is it possible that individuals lower their score because they believe the submitter failed to meet the challenge, yes indeed it is, just as it is possible that some might vote and image higher because they happen to have an attachment to the subject being displayed.
This whole argument is in my humble opinion a tempest in a tea pot, as I firmly believe that in the end, the difference is scores would in all likelyhood prove to be negligeable at best.
Ray |
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09/06/2007 03:43:38 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
... and you would base that argument on what standards of evaluation. I have yet to see one scintilla of evidence that would support the argument that the DNMC Nazis (as you call them) make the challenge topic the only criteria when voting. |
When someone casts a vote of 1 because of DNMC they clearly didn't consider anything else now would they?
Message edited by author 2007-09-06 15:45:25.
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