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08/13/2007 07:08:02 PM · #26 |
Any relation to the Kyoto treaty ending in 2012? And his plan would have made America debt free by 2012, if he were President?
Message edited by author 2007-08-13 19:09:24.
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08/13/2007 07:08:18 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by slickchik:
Al Gore IS an idiot! |
Good thing Bush the Rocket Scientist won! My goodness, we'd probably be involved in a stupid protracted war or something if Gore had won. |
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08/13/2007 07:13:48 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
A) Are you SURE you heard him right? Gore is not an idiot. The only way that much flooding occurs in 8 years is the Greenland ice shelf and the Antarctic ice shelf slide into the ocean. Could happen, but nobody knows if/when. I doubt Gore is stupid enough to say it's going to happen in the next 8 years. You sure he didn't say 2050?
B) Prof_fate is correct that increasing the ocean depth substantially requires ice from land to runoff into the ocean. However, he is incorrect to say there isn't enough ice. The Greenland shelf alone has enough ice to raise sea level 23 feet (see Wiki article)
C) If Gore said something so charged, why isn't any news covering it? I can't find a single google article about it. I doubt he said it. |
It was on Oprah a couple days ago. You could probably youtube it. He definitely said it. He has some fancy graphics that show you what is going to happen in the next 8 years. He says that most of Greenland will be melted. He kept saying that scientists say so, but he never offered up any names. I am curious about that. |
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08/13/2007 07:42:27 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by Jason_Cross:
It was on Oprah a couple days ago. You could probably youtube it. He definitely said it. He has some fancy graphics that show you what is going to happen in the next 8 years. He says that most of Greenland will be melted. He kept saying that scientists say so, but he never offered up any names. I am curious about that. |
Actually he was on Oprah on December 5, 2006, discussing global warming- that would be a little more than a couple of days ago. This strikes me as one of those wonderful internet rumors that will probably run wild.
Much like this one
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08/13/2007 07:47:54 PM · #30 |
Global warming is real and it's happening now. Al Gore didn't make it up. And I'd bet a lot of money he didn't make the definite prediction that was claimed in the first post.
Yes, Gore has made some silly claims in the past. So what? Have you ever made a mistake? Does that mean everyone should ignore everything you say forever?
But you know what? Ignore him and just pay attention to the thousands, yes, THOUSANDS of scientists across the planet that agree with him.
And for the record, there's plenty of ice on Greenland and Antarctica to raise sea levels well beyond three feet.
But I'm guessing those of you who so flippantly dismiss it aren't troubled by things like facts, so I'll just set this thread to ignore.
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08/13/2007 07:57:42 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by levyj413:
Global warming is real and it's happening now. |
Where's the proof?
Originally posted by levyj413:
But you know what? Ignore him and just pay attention to the thousands, yes, THOUSANDS of scientists across the planet that agree with him.[ |
Name a hundred of them then! No wait I'll settle for say twenty. And I would like to see a reference to their papers stating this is a fact.
Originally posted by levy413:
And for the record, there's plenty of ice on Greenland and Antarctica to raise sea levels well beyond three feet. |
I'm sure that there is. I'm also sure that it'll be there in 8 years...
Originally posted by levyj413:
But I'm guessing those of you who so flippantly dismiss it aren't troubled by things like facts, so I'll just set this thread to ignore. |
I haven't seen anything that is a proven fact. I've heard Big Al say that we must quit driving cars and turn off all the lights but one of his mansions uses more electricity than several of us normal peoples houses put together. Bet Big Al takes a huge Limo every where that he goes on the ground. How does that eliminate green house gasses. Bet Big Al flies a private jet everywhere he goes. How does that eliminate green house gasses? There are more green house gasses produced by cows every year then all the cars in the US. Bet Big Al doesn't turn down a corporate sponsored prime rib dinner at one of his fund raisers. When I see Big Al DO as Big Al SAYS then I'll start to be afraid...
Message edited by author 2007-08-13 19:59:46.
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08/13/2007 08:01:45 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by TooCool:
I've heard Big Al say that we must quit driving cars and turn off all the lights but one of his mansions uses more electricity than several of us normal peoples houses put together. Bet Big Al takes a huge Limo every where that he goes on the ground. How does that eliminate green house gasses. Bet Big Al flies a private jet everywhere he goes. How does that eliminate green house gasses? There are more green house gasses produced by cows every year then all the cars in the US. Bet Big Al doesn't turn down a corporate sponsored prime rib dinner at one of his fund raisers. When I see Big Al DO as Big Al SAYS then I'll start to be afraid... |
But he pays "Carbon Off-sets". Whatever the hell they are. Oh yeah, I guess he's just buying the priviledge to use more than the rest of us. It doesn't cut down his usage, but at least he feels better about himself by paying more.
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08/13/2007 08:02:12 PM · #33 |
Let's move away from conjecture, particularly on the part of people who really don't know anything about this subject. Instead, I'll quote from the the 2007 report from the international scientific body responsible for studying this issue.
The group is called the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. From its Web site:
"The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) has been established by the World Meterological Organization and the United Nations Environment Programme to assess scientific, technical and socio- economic information relevant for the understanding of climate change, its potential impacts and options for adaptation and mitigation. It is currently finalizing its Fourth Assessment Report "Climate Change 2007", also referred to as AR4. The reports by the three Working Groups provide a comprehensive and up-to-date assessment of the current state of knowledge on climate change."
Most importantly, perhaps, it doesn't report on conjecture, but rather "it bases its assessment mainly on peer reviewed and published scientific/technical literature."
You want names, as if you're going to recognize any of them? Fine. Read the PDF document "Who is Who"
So what do they say?
1) Temperatures are increasing, sea levels are rising and ice is melting. The warming of the climate system is "unequivocal."
2) Human activities are 90%+ likely to have caused most of the warming over the past 50 years.
3) Improved computer modeling has increased confidence in future climate projections: temperatures will continue to increase, sea levels will continue to rise, and ice will continue to melt.
Want more? You can read this page from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency or get the info straight from the IPCC.
That EPA page in particular does a good job of laying out what's virtually certain vs. what's not as certain.
Whatever you do, please, please, please don't base your opinions on non-scientists spouting political diatribes. Refuting global warming isn't as easy as mocking Al Gore.
Message edited by author 2007-08-13 20:21:00.
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08/13/2007 08:07:17 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by levyj413:
Global warming is real and it's happening now.
And for the record, there's plenty of ice on Greenland and Antarctica to raise sea levels well beyond three feet.
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True, very true. |
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08/13/2007 08:17:13 PM · #35 |
//earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Library/GlobalWarmingUpdate/
"Over the last five years, 600 scientists from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change sifted through thousands of studies about global warming published in forums ranging from scientific journals to industry publications and distilled the world’s accumulated knowledge into this conclusion: “Warming of the climate system is unequivocal.”
I continue to find it incredible how many people with no scientific training or experience in climatology continually dismiss the opinions of those who have committed their careers to this work, merely because because the scientific conclusions reached are politically inexpedient. |
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08/13/2007 08:20:42 PM · #36 |
Okay, let's say global warming is real. The polar bears are disappearing. Soon we may be disappearing. Isn't this just Darwinism at work? Perhaps we and the polar bears just aren't fit to survive?
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08/13/2007 08:22:39 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by levyj413:
But I'm guessing those of you who so flippantly dismiss it aren't troubled by things like facts, |
Originally posted by levyj413:
Let's move away from conjecture, particularly on the part of people who really don't know anything about this subject. |
As usual, conservative types that disagree with liberal ideas are stupid. Thank you for pointing out my ignorance...
OK... Now it's my turn to pick and chose lines from your source...
Originally posted by U.S. EPA:
As with any field of scientific study, there are uncertainties associated with the science of climate change. |
Originally posted by U.S. EPA:
In short, a growing number of scientific analyses indicate, but cannot prove, that rising levels of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere are contributing to climate change (as theory predicts). |
Originally posted by U.S. EPA:
Important scientific questions remain about how much warming will occur, how fast it will occur, and how the warming will affect the rest of the climate system including precipitation patterns and storms. Answering these questions will require advances in scientific knowledge in a number of areas:
* Improving understanding of natural climatic variations, changes in the sun's energy, land-use changes, the warming or cooling effects of pollutant aerosols, and the impacts of changing humidity and cloud cover.
* Determining the relative contribution to climate change of human activities and natural causes.
* Projecting future greenhouse emissions and how the climate system will respond within a narrow range. |
As far as your Who's Who PDF file, I see 18 names and no links to their papers...
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08/13/2007 08:24:51 PM · #38 |
| Actually the earth has changed polarity 180,000+ times, and the north and south pole move a couple miles every year (yeah, we wobble a little), but the world's population, which would easily fit into the state of deleware, has destroyed a planet that's been here for billions of years, in less then 200 years because we like to drive big cars and use hair spray. Oh yeah, we are so bad we are causing global warming on mars too! And, don't forget that the planet has actually cooled over the last 8 years, so I guess the worlds top scientist were all correct in the 70's when they said another ice age is coming! |
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08/13/2007 08:32:18 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
so I guess the worlds top scientist were all correct in the 70's when they said another ice age is coming! |
Ya beat me to the punch...
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08/13/2007 08:52:12 PM · #40 |
So we are now arguing over a thread that was started by someone who claimed Al Gore said something on Oprah he didn't even watch! DPC classic.
You know we can go back and forth and back and forth. For the doubters, I'll point to one tidbit which I would take to mean you cannot simply dismiss the idea.
Michael Shermer, the founder of The Skeptics Society and editor of the magazine Skeptic declared An Inconvenient Truth. ...shocked me out of my doubting stance.
Now Shermer is not the end-all of knowledge. But if a man who's life is dedicated to debunking poor science and illogical thinking has become a "believer", then you'd best pay attention. Such an idea cannot simply be dismissed with witty banter and demonizing the opposition.
Message edited by author 2007-08-13 20:52:42. |
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08/13/2007 08:56:27 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Such an idea cannot simply be dismissed with witty banter and demonizing the opposition. |
It works for everything else in US politics, why should this be any different ? Perish the thought that people would actually have to think |
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08/13/2007 08:59:07 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Such an idea cannot simply be dismissed with witty banter and demonizing the opposition. |
And now I'm demonizing...
Originally posted by wikipedia a known authority in all things scientific and real written by no other than the entire population of the world with internet access:
Michael Shermer (born September 8, 1954 in Glendale, California) is a science writer, historian of science, founder of The Skeptics Society, and editor of its magazine Skeptic, which is largely devoted to investigating and debunking pseudoscientific and supernatural claims. |
I guess I'll believe the guy who spends his time debunking supernatural claims...
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08/13/2007 09:02:06 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Perish the thought that people would actually have to think |
Now I'm a demonizing non-thinker who isn't troubled by things like facts and doesn't really know anything about the subject.
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08/13/2007 09:07:58 PM · #44 |
| Good point, the guy that doesn't believe anything believes Al Gore! Must mean this guy and AL Gore have been right all along! |
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08/13/2007 09:09:29 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by TooCool:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
so I guess the worlds top scientist were all correct in the 70's when they said another ice age is coming! |
Ya beat me to the punch... |
I think they thought we were going to drive small cars and ride bikes, it's not their fault we did not do waht they expected....lol
Message edited by author 2007-08-13 21:09:54. |
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08/13/2007 09:09:41 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by TooCool:
Now I'm a demonizing non-thinker who isn't troubled by things like facts and doesn't really know anything about the subject |
and doesn't read very carefully. |
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08/13/2007 09:18:39 PM · #47 |
Well Jason, I went back and found the Al Gore's visit to Oprah on Youtube. (you can search for it yourself).
Here's the big quote...you ready? Sitting down? Got yer pencil?
(while talking about rising sea levels)
"If Greenland went, and scientists cannot predict how rapidly this could take place. If Greenland, or West Antarctica, or half of eachâ€Â¦this is what would happen to Floridaâ€Â¦the maps of the world would have to be redrawn."
Gore NEVER mentions a date, let alone 2015.
So, as we would all say in medical school when someone would ask a stupid question and get put in their place by the professor..."SIT DOWN!"
Message edited by author 2007-08-13 21:19:49. |
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08/13/2007 09:20:50 PM · #48 |
TooCool, you seem to be taking everything very personally. I'm not going to read back through all of the posts, but just recently you did snidely dismiss someone whose life work has been to debunk shams. Why you felt that was worthy of derision is beyond me, but you did say it. And plenty of others, including in this thread, have attempted to equate the veracity of climate science with that of Al Gore, and along the way have slammed him repeatedly.
So maybe you, personally, aren't demonizing people as a means of dismissing the arguments, but others have.
Now then.
First, ignorance does not equal stupidity. I'm ignorant on a vast range of topics. Heart surgery, for example, or how to operate a supertanker. And trust me, you wouldn't want me working on your car (I'll leave that to  Brad).
I also didn't say anything about conservatives vs. liberals. I said "people who really don't know anything about this subject." That includes vast multitudes of people of very possible political stripe.
And my whole point was, to quote myself again, to "... move away from conjecture" from that type of person.
Ultimately, unless someone is going to get a Ph.D. in some atmospheric science, we're always going to be relying on a digested form of reporting on this subject. You can ask for original materials if you really want to read them. They're available. Maybe not all of it is online, but are you really arguing that the the papers don't exist? Same goes for naming scientists. I'm a bit baffled as to this demand, but I'd bet if you write to IPCC, you could get the list. But you can read the scientists' own summaries. Oh, and the document I linked to refers to "hundreds" of scientists in a few places.
But let's return to my mention of Brad. Specifically, why I would trust him to work on my car: his has various certifications. Why do I trust my dentist? He studied dentistry. Why do you trust the guy driving the trash truck not to run you over when you're walking on the sidewalk? Because he's been trained. Examples abound. No need to tell me bad apples are out there, because the point remains the vast majority are competent.
Now, unless you demand original information on every possible subject, in which case I suspect you're rather busy, you must trust someone, sometime, on something.
My urgent plea is to trust scientists, not pundits, not random people in an Internet thread (including me), not even Al Gore, but the scientists themselves. Not blindly; by all means, check out their credentials.
Now, to respond to a few specific points.
Scientists will almost never declare something "proved." The best they ever do is state that research indicates something, to varying degrees. Ever taken medicine? Why, when nothing is 100% effective in every person in every instance, and uncertainties remain about exactly what dose could set off possible reactions in some people?
I would argue it's because you, and all of us, are willing to accept odds as demonstrating better ways to conduct ourselves.
Yes, there are real uncertainties in the nature, location, and scale of the effects. That has nothing to do with the virtual certainty climate change is happening now and we're causing it.
So let me put it this way: if a doctor told you there was a 90% chance that if you keep doing something, you'll die, what would you do? What if the doc said your behavior made it 90% likely that your entire family would die?
If we wait for every single decision to be made based on 100% certainty, we'll live our whole lives in the basement.
Message edited by author 2007-08-13 21:32:00.
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08/13/2007 09:27:06 PM · #49 |
all these predictions are freaking me out!
so will DPC still be around after that? |
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08/13/2007 09:41:34 PM · #50 |
What is debating this here and now worth?
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