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08/07/2003 02:59:01 PM · #51 |
I went through and voted on this challenge earlier today and was highly disappointed by those shots which used images that were likely not taken by the submitter.
When I saw "no holds barred" I interpreted that to mean that I could do whatever to photos I had taken myself, and so I did that. My shot actually contains about seven or eight photos (most of which were used to create a panoramic shot, then cropped and another shot added afterward) but I took each of the photographs used in the final image. It didn't ever occur to me to use someone else's images. I even looked up legal issues as they related to one of my own photographs.
As for DQing photos, I'll leave that decision up to the site admin. I would support a decision to dq entries if the submitter cannot supply proof of ownership and copyright for any of the images used in the submission.
Just my thoughts.
Shari
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08/07/2003 03:11:01 PM · #52 |
well, actually, considering that most of us also forgot about the TOS stuff, I think a reminder along the lines you suggest, even with the humourous extra boxes, would in fact be useful to have.
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
it's not the manipulation that *I* found troubling. If you look at my Multi-Image Compositions or my Doors and Windows entries, you will see that this is so.
What I found troubling is that people used source material that they did not themselves shoot ..
Frankly that never even occurred to me to do that or that others would do that.
Which, I guess is a good thing. Because it points out a hole that we have left open on this site. It makes us realize we that we need to make it completely clear that you cannot submit anything for which you are not the copyright holder.
We'll probably need to implement a button or something that makes sure you acknowledge you shot everything yourself and own copyright for all of the above. |
Its already there though. There are several sections in the use policy that mention it. Putting more check boxes out there doesn't help if people don't bother to read or understand the legal agreements they sign up for.
[] Did you read the rules ?
[] Are you sure ?
[] Is this your picture ?
[] Really ?
[] You wouldn't be just checking boxes would you ? |
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08/07/2003 03:13:54 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by ttreit:
rofl Gordon.
My $.02 about all this is that I see DPC as a great place to become a better photographer. I want people who comment on my photo to have some idea about what actually came out of the camera in the first place so that I can get feedback that will help me improve that skill.
I think if we wanted to have a contest that helped us become better photoshop user's we might have a different kind of challenge. A challenge like we have now (you have to take a photo and then manipulate that photo) where you upload the shot unaltered and then altered so people could compare what came out of PS with what went into it.
I really like the basic challenge rules, so I think we should keep that around. However it sounds like there's a lot of interest in production challenge which I think would be great to offer in addition to the classic DPC. |
I'd like to see contests that would allow us to become better users of photoshop _for_photography_
There is a huge range of things that you can do in photoshop, to improve an actual photograph, that are
a/ not covered by the normal restricted rules
b/ don't lead to composite collages and un-natural looking photos. |
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08/07/2003 03:14:07 PM · #54 |
I think since it wasn't specified initially it would be difficult to do a global DQ on all those images even if we do not ethically support their actions.
I think we could petition to the admin to have the rules changed and have a check box placed on the submission page to indicate that the photo was taken by the submitter and hopefully alleviate this issue in the future. I know I would be willing to do so.
I am definitely a new person, so hopefully I am not overstepping my bounds, but I assumed that we are all here to learn how to shoot better images ourselves not learn how to manipulate others... |
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08/07/2003 03:16:18 PM · #55 |
I thought this was a nice break from the everyday type pictures we see in every challenge. I thought this was a chance to learn from the experts through critique how I can get better at manipulating photos. I went all out, not in hopes of winning, but in hope of gaining ideas on how to better my technique. My shot is not that good, even to me. And I have picked several 10s that blow mine away. I am not in any way a fan of editing to the extreme that I did in my shot. But I had a lot of fun doing it on this one.
I do feel like the rules are being made up as we go on this challenge.
And Gordon, Yes, It is my picture, I created it from many sources. It did not exist until I did the work.
There is more photography in this entry that in any 4 of my previous entries.
No Holds Barred ΓΆ€“ was pretty clear in my mind. That clearly means to me NONE of the previous rules apply. NONE of them. Not even the "humorous" extra boxes.
I hope at this point you will DQ this shot.
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08/07/2003 03:18:55 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
Its already there though. There are several sections in the use policy that mention it. Putting more check boxes out there doesn't help if people don't bother to read or understand the legal agreements they sign up for.
[] Did you read the rules ?
[] Are you sure ?
[] Is this your picture ?
[] Really ?
[] You wouldn't be just checking boxes would you ? |
This is true, but I assume that there are those who do not really read the rules in the first place. If the challenge states that there are no rules, it is possible that it could be interpreted as it doesn't matter if the image is their's or not. I think the suggestion was not to add more administration overhead, but possible just more awareness.
Message edited by author 2003-08-07 15:20:45. |
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08/07/2003 03:25:31 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by silverleaf:
I think since it wasn't specified initially it would be difficult to do a global DQ on all those images even if we do not ethically support their actions.
I think we could petition to the admin to have the rules changed and have a check box placed on the submission page to indicate that the photo was taken by the submitter and hopefully alleviate this issue in the future. I know I would be willing to do so.
I am definitely a new person, so hopefully I am not overstepping my bounds, but I assumed that we are all here to learn how to shoot better images ourselves not learn how to manipulate others... |
In several cases, they are breaking the law.
It isn't some arbitary rule that DPC came up with. |
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08/07/2003 03:28:25 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by silverleaf:
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
Its already there though. There are several sections in the use policy that mention it. Putting more check boxes out there doesn't help if people don't bother to read or understand the legal agreements they sign up for.
[] Did you read the rules ?
[] Are you sure ?
[] Is this your picture ?
[] Really ?
[] You wouldn't be just checking boxes would you ? |
This is true, but I assume that there are those who do not really read the rules in the first place. If the challenge states that there are no rules, it is possible that it could be interpreted as it doesn't matter if the image is their's or not. I think the suggestion was not to add more administration overhead, but possible just more awareness. |
They are breaking the law, by copyright infringement. By keeping them available, we become liable too for also publishing the infringing works.
A web site, that is an incorporated company is a lot easier to sue than an individual. We've had legal threats before over copyright material, so this wouldn't be the first time it happened. |
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08/07/2003 03:28:46 PM · #59 |
I look forward to more no-edit-barred challenges. I think they certainly have a place here, and I'm certain that by stating it "must be your own original photo" that gets edited, the confusion we are having this week will be solved. I'm certain that no one intentionally tried to "put one over on us"... Some folks made honest mistakes...
That said, how are we certain that certain photos were not original work? Are we certain no one here is an astronaut, or has access to high explosives?
I'll vote each shot as if it is an original work and suggest DQ for any I feel may not be. I'm pretty sure that's the rule.
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08/07/2003 03:31:26 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
I'd like to see contests that would allow us to become better users of photoshop _for_photography_
There is a huge range of things that you can do in photoshop, to improve an actual photograph, that are
a/ not covered by the normal restricted rules
b/ don't lead to composite collages and un-natural looking photos. |
I like that as well Gordon, after all this is a photography site and not a Photoshop site. BUT, now and then I think a challenge like the "future" challenge is a good idea so that we can use our photoshop skills to create montages or extend spot editing or whateva. It is a nice change, something different and I find it quite enjoyable. But of course we can't do it too often, a couple of times a year would be okay. I really hope that we do get to have a challenge like this again someday.
I am so surprised at this thread and what I have read here. For the multi-composition challenge we never had all this talk. And for that challenge I photoshopped my submission to pieces and even got first place for it!
I alos have to say that ever since this thread started my future submission has dropped more in one day, 1.5 points, than any other challenge I have entered.
That's all :-)
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08/07/2003 03:31:44 PM · #61 |
Although I didn't enter this challenge, I did look around for Photoshop plugins that could help me create an image I was after. Unfortunately I didn't get them in time, but there are LOADS of Photoshop plugins that allow you to add the Sun, Moon, Stars, Earth, and planets in general. In fact, there are plugins out there to take care of generating almost anything. Don't forget Bryce as well!
All of these resources would be DPC legal for this challenge I believe.
Let's not jump to conclusions...
Message edited by author 2003-08-07 15:33:13. |
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08/07/2003 03:34:56 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by kiwiness:
I am so surprised at this thread and what I have read here. For the multi-composition challenge we never had all this talk. And for that challenge I photoshopped my submission to pieces and even got first place for it!
I alos have to say that ever since this thread started my future submission has dropped more in one day, 1.5 points, than any other challenge I have entered.
That's all :-) |
you at least took the photographs that appeared in your multi-image composition though. I don't think many people rented time on the shuttle for many of the pictures that have been entered. |
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08/07/2003 03:35:33 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by Gringo:
No Holds Barred ΓΆ€“ was pretty clear in my mind. That clearly means to me NONE of the previous rules apply. NONE of them. Not even the "humorous" extra boxes.
I hope at this point you will DQ this shot. |
Just picked your quoate cause it was close to the end....
Here's what the challenge "extra rules" said: There are NO editing restrictions and NO date restrictions for this challenge. The sections "Post-shot Adjustments" and "Exposure Date" are not will not be considered for disqualification. This is basically no-holds-barred, so make it a good one!
It didn't say all rules were suspended. The "no-holds-barred" tag was just fluff - extra language for cute emphasis. Before that, it was very specific on what rules were suspended - only editing and date restrictions. No mention of lifting any other rules, especially the use of other people's work.
People need to stop latching on to one or two words in the descriptions and ignoring everything else. (This goes for both the hyper-literal and the hyper-abstract interpretations of the descriptions...) |
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08/07/2003 03:37:29 PM · #64 |
From the Challenge Description:
Details: Take a photograph that might give your viewer a glimpse of the future.
Extra Rules: There are NO editing restrictions and NO date restrictions for this challenge. The sections "Post-shot Adjustments" and "Exposure Date" are not will not be considered for disqualification. This is basically no-holds-barred, so make it a good one!
I don't see anything in these statements that imply using a photograph that is not your own. Therefore, I do not see the reason for confusion.
When an instruction is given, one must read and understand it as a whole.. not take out pieces of it to fit their desired interpretation.
edit: hmm.. scottk said this too... at the same time :P
Message edited by author 2003-08-07 15:39:14. |
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08/07/2003 03:44:05 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by BobsterLobster:
Although I didn't enter this challenge, I did look around for Photoshop plugins that could help me create an image I was after. Unfortunately I didn't get them in time, but there are LOADS of Photoshop plugins that allow you to add the Sun, Moon, Stars, Earth, and planets in general. In fact, there are plugins out there to take care of generating almost anything. Don't forget Bryce as well!
All of these resources would be DPC legal for this challenge I believe.
Let's not jump to conclusions... |
Thank you Bobster.
Gordon I praise your efforts to protect the site (and users) from legal dispute. But you are acting like the judge and jury and without cause.
You assume there might be a problem.
At this point the problem is this: my score is in the toilet and my work has been trashed openly in several forums. I havent broken any laws or rules of the site as far as I can tell, and it is not fair to me at this point to leave this entry in the challenge.
text |
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08/07/2003 03:44:26 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by KarenB:
edit: hmm.. scottk said this too... at the same time :P |
Great minds, and all.... :-) |
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08/07/2003 03:46:56 PM · #67 |
So what exactly is the problem here!
You want my shot DQ'd
I want my shot DQ'd
Do it already! |
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08/07/2003 03:49:06 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by myqyl:
I'm certain that no one intentionally tried to "put one over on us"... Some folks made honest mistakes...
That said, how are we certain that certain photos were not original work? Are we certain no one here is an astronaut, or has access to high explosives?
I'll vote each shot as if it is an original work and suggest DQ for any I feel may not be. I'm pretty sure that's the rule. |
I agree. I would also remind you that on other sites before submitting a photo you have to click a box confirming you own the copyrights on the photo. By doing it, it cannot be interpreted as a "mistake" if you submit somthing illegal and could also protect DPChallenge.com from lawsuit. Just me 2 cents.
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08/07/2003 03:49:08 PM · #69 |
I've already requested DQ on a few of them, Gringo, so calm down. I love your stuff and I'm sorry if you are one of the ones I hit - I just think that "no holds barred" leaves the exception "it must be LEGAL."
This is like high school policies - nowhere in the high school policy at the school I went to did it say "Murder is expressly disallowed." However, I'm pretty sure that since it's a more global law, it would apply, even on school property. :)
M
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08/07/2003 03:49:25 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by Gringo:
Thank you Bobster.
Gordon I praise your efforts to protect the site (and users) from legal dispute. But you are acting like the judge and jury and without cause.
You assume there might be a problem. |
Gringo - you said yourself that you took all the pictures that you used. Great - no problem then.
But several have photos that are pretty obviously not taken by the submitter. I'm not assuming there might be a problem, I'm looking at the pictures and hearing from various people that thought they could use whatever images they liked, whether they took them or not. |
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08/07/2003 03:52:35 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by nathaliedoo:
I agree. I would also remind you that on other sites before submitting a photo you have to click a box confirming you own the copyrights on the photo. By doing it, it cannot be interpreted as a "mistake" if you submit somthing illegal and could also protect DPChallenge.com from lawsuit. Just me 2 cents. |
You already do that here.... |
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08/07/2003 03:52:36 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by Gringo:
So what exactly is the problem here!
You want my shot DQ'd
I want my shot DQ'd
Do it already! |
What's the problem with your shot? Which one is your shot? Don't over panic. Did you use a picture of someone else? There is no drama here, just clarifiying a situation and if you made a mistake, that's it. I'm sure you'll survive through it. I had one of my submission DQed for a border and still enjoy this site. So take it with a grain of salt and be happy!
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08/07/2003 03:54:59 PM · #73 |
Gordon, when did I say I took all the shots?
I said i didn't break any laws.
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08/07/2003 03:55:44 PM · #74 |
When I read the Challenge rule....I took it to mean I could use an older photo that I had taken....or parts of it...with the Idea that in the past...I might have an image that fit... "The Future"....(lol..I didn't)..using another pic.. that was not my own never occurred to me either...with my PSP8...I did very little...editing....or DPC "illegal"...which for this challenge was legal... but NO...stealing of others work...infact mine was an original... submitted 2 hours before deadline...and it was fun...and I thought it was a good rep... of the future....
Thank you for your time
Tom |
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08/07/2003 03:56:30 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by Gringo:
Gordon, when did I say I took all the shots?
I said i didn't break any laws. |
I'm sorry - I missread something where I thought you said you'd created all the images within the picture.
So you own the copyrights on all the images ?
Message edited by author 2003-08-07 15:57:36. |
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