Useful Critiques - DPChallenge Forums

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

11/19/2002 01:54:38 PM · #1

On Photosig, there is a small group of people who have created a "Useful Critique" group. I think something like this could be very beneficial here on DPC. A majority of the comments posted on photos here are just that... comments... I think it would be nice if every photo here every week got at least one detailed constructive critique. If anyone here would like to participate in such a group, please sound off...

If you want to participate, you need to be prepared to write useful and constructive criticism on an assigned number of photos each week. The more volunteers we have, the less photos each person will have to do. I would like to see at least 10 volunteers for this project. That should keep the number of photos each person is assigned below 30 for a while...

If you have any ideas or comments on this concept, please jump in :)

jimmythefish

Canon EOS-10D

11/19/2002 01:57:39 PM · #2

I'd be happy to participate. I think it's a good idea.

James.

muckpond

Nikon D200

Sigma 15mm f/2.8 EX Diagonal Fisheye for Nikon

11/19/2002 02:06:28 PM · #3

Rock on -- I'm in. Part of my problem with voting is that I feel compelled to write a little something about every photo and I always end up doing some and then rushing through the rest. Am I correct in assuming that this would be done in addition to the current voting procedure?

Would it be possible to let the people who are detailed-critiquing the photos see the photog's detailed comments before the voting period is up? For instance, a critique that focuses (no pun intended) on the lack of focus in a photo would be missing the point if the photographer INTENDED the picture to be out of focus, or high contrast, or cropped differently, etc. If people were encouraged to record more of the details about why they made certain choices in a shot, it might help critique not just the image itself, but the results of the procedure. Does that make sense?

-- Rob 8)

Azrifel

Fujifilm X100VI

11/19/2002 02:07:15 PM · #4

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

If you want to participate, you need to be prepared to write useful and constructive criticism on an assigned number of photos each week. The more volunteers we have, the less photos each person will have to do. I would like to see at least 10 volunteers for this project. That should keep the number of photos each person is assigned below 30 for a while...

I would like to do that, but I don't know if I am any good at it.

scab-lab

Canon EOS-D60

11/19/2002 02:26:19 PM · #5

I think another good thing needed here would be a primer on "How to accept constructive critisim graciously". Too many posts I see here of people complaining of low scores. I think you have a great idea John, just dont think I can help much, like you, I submit to a couple of sites and shoot themes for 4x6. Any challenge I enter in the future, I'll pick up the pace on CC's.

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

11/19/2002 03:21:13 PM · #6

I'd like to do this, but it can only be usefully done with a couple
of things:

Knowledge of the camera used/ settings used

Knowledge of the level of experience of the photographer

Lack of these two pieces of information mostly stops me trying to
give a detailed comment/ critique.

Its hard to tell if the person could adjust things that you might
suggest. It is also hard to gauge if you would be providing too
much, too little or just the right amount of technical comment. E.g.,
do you have to explain what focus lock is, or can you assume the person
understands what bokeh is and how to control it, etc

11/19/2002 03:33:55 PM · #7

Those pieces of information won't be available. This would happen during normal voting just as it does with comments now...

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

11/19/2002 03:50:48 PM · #8

Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Those pieces of information won't be available. This would happen during normal voting just as it does with comments now...

You could alternatively organise to have the DPC UCC run one week
behind the standard comment week. This would then allow the commentors
to know who they were commenting on, the camera used and the settings/ details.

You could require that the commentees correctly fill out the settings details and also that the 'details' section should have some guidelines on the content (e.g., aim, thoughts during taking, appearance that was desired, technical issues, specific feedback sought)

In some cases I've done something very deliberately and conciously and
don't particuarly want people to tell me how to 'fix' it for example.
If I explained it was intentional in the details field, then the commentors could get on with providing useful comment that I would like
to hear, rather than explaining how to remove the one feature I wanted
in the first place - as an example.

* This message has been edited by the author on 11/19/2002 3:49:09 PM.

joanns

Fujifilm FinePix S5 Pro

11/19/2002 04:49:53 PM · #9

I would volunteer but I'm still learning myself, how to critique. I've just barely graduated to the critiquing level above - "nice" & "super". I have learned an amazing amount about photography and how to try to be objective about my own work from this site, thanks to your critiques. Of course it's nice to receive all of the praise to keep you encouraged, but a serious, helpful critique is food for growth.

11/19/2002 04:52:03 PM · #10

That sounds like a good idea... it would also make it much easier to determine who critiques what withouth worrying about duplication.

I support Gordon's suggestion of critiquing the photos from the previous challenge...

Any more ideas?

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

11/19/2002 04:53:46 PM · #11

Originally posted by joanns:
I would volunteer but I'm still learning myself, how to critique. I've just barely graduated to the critiquing level above - "nice" & "super". I have learned an amazing amount about photography and how to try to be objective about my own work from this site, thanks to your critiques. Of course it's nice to receive all of the praise to keep you encouraged, but a serious, helpful critique is food for growth.

Joanns,

Maybe watching what goes on with these critiques for a while would help you learn what is happening. If you decide that you want to participate later, that is fine too. I probably can't get 'too many' people lined up to do this, so more is better :)

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

11/19/2002 05:44:59 PM · #12

John,

A while ago some of started (partially) a "focus group" to do something similar to this. mci wrote some code and has the site partly up and running. Check it out, and if you're interested send Mike a note, or just see if you can register at the dot.focus registration page.

So far, the little I've used it was to post some options prior to submitting (to get feedback/advice first), but you can create an album for any purpose.
--Paul

Patella

Canon EOS-500D Rebel T1i

11/19/2002 06:17:59 PM · #13

If this is done a week after the challenge (a great idea, Gordon), and if it's kept on the site, what if there was a checkbox for those that WANT the detailed critique as part of the submission process. For those that worry about it being one more thing to deal with, maybe the native state could be automatically checked and if you don't want the critique, you have to uncheck the box.

While I can't personally foresee not wanting a good solid critique, I can imagine others deciding they didn't. *shrug*

I'm also in if people decide they want me. ;-)

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

11/19/2002 06:21:35 PM · #14

Originally posted by GeneralE:
John,

A while ago some of started (partially) a "focus group" to do something similar to this. mci wrote some code and has the site partly up and running. Check it out, and if you're interested send Mike a note, or just see if you can register at the dot.focus registration page.

So far, the little I've used it was to post some options prior to submitting (to get feedback/advice first), but you can create an album for any purpose.
--Paul

I may check that site out later, but currently i'm interested in doing it here on DPC. There is quite a bit of photo sharing by dpc members on other sites already... I am not against that, but I want to provide feedback here in an effort to generate more useful feedback sitewide...

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

11/19/2002 06:29:50 PM · #15

I getcha, I was skimming the thread in hurry to leave and didn't get it 100%...I'll check back more carefully later...

stephan

Casio QV-4000

11/19/2002 07:41:33 PM · #16

John, I would like to participate.

Personally I experienced a decline in real critiques (i.e. comments which make suggestions how the person who viewed the photo thinks it could be improved) and this is a good idea to improve this. When a moderator assigns photos to the critics the "useful" critiques are also distributed more evenly.

However. Unfortunately I don't think I would be able to do that for 30 photos. I already sometimes don't have the time to even vote on every photo. But a number of say 5-10 photos would be possible.

I really like the idea and hope that many people will participate. I think a small number such critiques are way more helpful for other photographers than as if you would just have scored any number of photos.

Tamron SP 24-70mm F/2.8 Di VC USD for Nikon

11/19/2002 07:51:18 PM · #17

The number of photos to critique would be distributed evenly between the number of participants in the process. If you don't usually have enough time to finish voting, this process probably isnt for you :( I think it's more important to finish voting than to participate in extra critiques probably...

jimmsp

Canon EOS-60D

11/19/2002 08:39:57 PM · #18

You could count me in. I am probably a better critiquer than I am photographer now. I do support two thoughts posted above by Gordon and Patella. First, only those who ask for detailed critiques are included. Second, that there be detailed info on the photo available, including technical and artistic intent.
On a side note, I would also like to see this available on photos other than those submitted for challenge. Some do this already in an informal way. I have, and I have gotten great feedback. Perhaps this is a "round 2" idea.

Gracious

11/19/2002 09:32:32 PM · #19

Count me in John.

Sigma 50-500mm f/4.0-6.3 EX APO RF HSM for Olympus

11/19/2002 09:35:08 PM · #20

Originally posted by jimmsp:
You could count me in. I am probably a better critiquer than I am photographer now. I do support two thoughts posted above by Gordon and Patella. First, only those who ask for detailed critiques are included. Second, that there be detailed info on the photo available, including technical and artistic intent.
On a side note, I would also like to see this available on photos other than those submitted for challenge. Some do this already in an informal way. I have, and I have gotten great feedback. Perhaps this is a "round 2" idea.

Currently, I can't provide a method of identifying photos that 'want' a critique. I would assume they ALL want critique and comments or they would not be posted on DPC to begin with. I can't ask for changes to the site to benefit this project at this point. We need to see if it will be successful first.

inspzil

Olympus E-510

11/19/2002 10:12:36 PM · #21

Setz - I'm with Jimmsp regarding being a better critiquer that photographer. Lately I've tried very hard to do that anyway. I feel that maybe it's a post-voting thing though. Those who want further critiques, apply the first couple days after voting. Even if it was during the voting, what would it help? You'd still get the same score. Maybe give each "critiquer" who has consented for that week (in case folks are going out of town or don't have time) 15 or 20 photos to judge. Perhaps a categorical rating and comments for each rating below say 7 for instance. The critiquers have all the info that they need at that point, right? Any questions about intent and such could be answered thru PM's. Sound like a winner? I've thought this out for nearly 5 minutes and it's the best thing I've come up with so far.

To me, this is where the learning part happens. Those who know they took a picture just to enter something and know it's no good, they don't have to bother asking for additional critiques. Save the time for the people who could really use the critique.

So I think it's a splendid idea John, count me in. - Bob

11/19/2002 11:12:38 PM · #22

I'm not sure how to go about getting 'applications' for additional critique. I believe that a majority of those who submit photos don't read these forums. Let me think about that some...

stephan

Casio QV-4000

11/20/2002 04:30:38 AM · #23

Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I think it's more important to finish voting than to participate in extra critiques probably...

I disagree. That's what I wanted to say in my previous post. I think it's more helpful overall when you write 5 critiques instead of just voting on 100 photos. A single vote may change the score my 1/100th of a point but a single critique may help the photographer to see his/her photo in a different view.

But if you say it's not possible to limit the number of photos for the critics, then I'll just vote/comment like always: as many as time permits.