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06/02/2007 02:39:19 AM · #101 |
Originally posted by RainMotorsports:
Originally posted by L2:
This is exactly the kind of thread that makes others not want to comment at all. |
Or when you write out a two paragraph thoughtful comment and they dont mark it helpful.... |
Yes, this annoys a lot. So when someone does this, I simply go back and delete the comment. And try not to comment anything on his photos.
One famous (on this site at least) has done this to me. I have made it a point to just ignore this photographer's photos. (specially when he marks other comments helpful).
If I spent 15 minutes writing the comment, he / she could at least mark it helpful (since no read check box there). |
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06/02/2007 02:43:40 AM · #102 |
Originally posted by digitalknight:
The comment simple "is".
No matter what his intention - definition comes from within you.
nuff said. |
This is very old, but I have not forgotten.
You once commented on one of my photos:
And got little angry over that and sent a pm. My apologies for that.
(I did apologize by writing a comment there, i do not think you ever visited that photo to see it). Sorry again. |
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06/02/2007 03:47:22 AM · #103 |
Originally posted by digitalknight:
The comment simple "is".
No matter what his intention - definition comes from within you.
nuff said. |
I'm strongly reminded of Bill Clinton here; "...that would depend on what your definition of 'is' is."
A photograph can be interpreted. The written word is specific and generally means what is says in black and white. I wouldn't greet good friends by telling them to go piss up a rope and expect them to interpret it as anything but the rude remark that it is.
Message edited by author 2007-06-02 03:47:55.
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06/02/2007 04:12:16 AM · #104 |
I was advised to post this link in this thread. So here I am!!
Are you going to take up the challenge? |
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06/02/2007 08:22:51 AM · #105 |
Originally posted by zxaar:
Originally posted by RainMotorsports:
Or when you write out a two paragraph thoughtful comment and they dont mark it helpful.... |
Yes, this annoys a lot. So when someone does this, I simply go back and delete the comment. .... |
Zxaar, this activity might make you feel better, but please think of the community, who may have benefited from your comment when viewing that shot.
It's not just our own comments received that we learn from.
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06/02/2007 08:44:09 AM · #106 |
Originally posted by L2:
Originally posted by zxaar:
Originally posted by RainMotorsports:
Or when you write out a two paragraph thoughtful comment and they dont mark it helpful.... |
Yes, this annoys a lot. So when someone does this, I simply go back and delete the comment. .... |
Zxaar, this activity might make you feel better, but please think of the community, who may have benefited from your comment when viewing that shot.
It's not just our own comments received that we learn from. |
Actually I had to do it just once. Its very rare that when you spend 15 minutes writing the other person does not click it helpful.
Further, there are some people who never click helpful check box for every body. I have never deleted any of my comments to them. |
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06/02/2007 08:59:56 AM · #107 |
Originally posted by larryslights:
Originally posted by L2:
When people post threads complaining about certain kinds of comments, it discourages ALL comments.
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Says who? |
Says over 5 years of past experience, past threads, and past tickets. I can't even tell you how many times people have come out and said they were going to stop commenting (or stop commenting on low scores) over threads like this.
~Terry
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06/02/2007 09:05:00 AM · #108 |
Originally posted by KarenNfld:
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Yet another reason I think there should be a forum section for bitching about voting and commenting. This is getting ridiculous.
SC should automatically lock every thread on the subject. |
Really? And who's to judge whether it is a complaint or simply an observation? I think lots of threads on other topics should be locked but I don't bitch and complain about that! |
In this case, we don make any attempt to distinguish between a comment and an observation -- but we are obligated to enforce the forum rules, which prohibit calling out specific comments or commenters in a hostile manner.
You're all welcome to discuss generally what is and is not a constructive comments, but let's please not publicly call people out for specific comments we don't like.
~Terry
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06/02/2007 09:06:38 AM · #109 |
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
Originally posted by KarenNfld:
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Yet another reason I think there should be a forum section for bitching about voting and commenting. This is getting ridiculous.
SC should automatically lock every thread on the subject. |
Really? And who's to judge whether it is a complaint or simply an observation? I think lots of threads on other topics should be locked but I don't bitch and complain about that! |
In this case, we don make any attempt to distinguish between a comment and an observation -- but we are obligated to enforce the forum rules, which prohibit calling out specific comments or commenters in a hostile manner.
You're all welcome to discuss generally what is and is not a constructive comments, but let's please not publicly call people out for specific comments we don't like.
~Terry |
I never publicly called out specific comments or commenters. I was just commiserating with the OP.
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06/02/2007 09:12:51 AM · #110 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
That being said, I still think the comment I recieved was rude. I do not doubt his many contributions and I'm not telling him to stop commenting. I just don't think there is a point in TRYING to be offensive as he already admited. |
The truth is offensive. That's the joke that  zeuszen started. I am not starting a new campaign of offensive comments. Every once in a long while I try to tell someone very specifically why I'm voting them low. People say they want to know, but they don't want to know. |
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06/02/2007 09:54:27 AM · #111 |
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
Originally posted by larryslights:
Originally posted by L2:
When people post threads complaining about certain kinds of comments, it discourages ALL comments.
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Says who? |
Says over 5 years of past experience, past threads, and past tickets. I can't even tell you how many times people have come out and said they were going to stop commenting (or stop commenting on low scores) over threads like this.
~Terry |
How many people over 5 years have stopped entering their shots, because of the conforming nature of the comments? How many people have left this site because of expressing different points of view than the 'dpc' mindset only to be ridiculed? When that happens I have read comments in the forums that go something like "well, too bad, they couldn't take it..".
I am not advocating an attack on people who comment. I do think a discussion of what a valuable comment looks like can be a positive part of this site. That would require people to mention things that aren't helpful. If we can all handle any sort of reaction to our photos, why can't we do the same with our comments. I think it comes from the misguided concept that when we comment we are doing someone else a favour, and how dare they complain. When you provide a comment, you are exercising your freedom to express yourself, you are developing your critical eye, you are potentially opening doors of communication with another person from another part of the world.
I am not a big fan of 'if you don't like my comments too bad, they are my thoughts'. Not when the person responds to these thoughts and all of a sudden "their thoughts" are considered offensive. In this we lose the chance to debate, discuss, and argue. We lose a bigger opportunity to learn.
If someone wanted to complain about something I wrote, I would welcome their comment, try to find a way to communicate with them in a way that they could benefit from my comment. If I don't care how someone reacts to my comments, then my actions are self-serving and I am simply developing my own ego, gaining some sort of sense of superiority. |
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06/02/2007 10:09:01 AM · #112 |
| Can't we all just get along? |
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06/02/2007 10:22:03 AM · #113 |
RUMBLE IN THE PARKING LOT.............. roflmao!!!
The first thing I was told when joining this site was "You need to have tough skin when entering the challenges."
I look at it that there are those comments that will be helpful and those that are TRYING to be helpful (unless they specifically are an ass about something). I think the majority are trying to be helpful. I've had to sit back and stew on some comments only to realize (after the initial shock) that they were trying to be constructive. Not everyone is TACTFUL when they speak, but that doesn't mean they are trying to be negative. Remember, we can't see their face, don't know their mood and can't see their body language when they type what they type. Different cultures speak differently and that needs to be taken into consideration also. Some people don't think on the same wavelength, so may not get it. Can't fault them for that. I'd say I had not done the best job in conveying that in my photo.
If ya throw something out there in a challenge you run the risk of getting comments you may or may not agree with. So be it. See if there is anything positive in it you can take away. If not, BE TOUGH. Don't check the "helpful" box. Those that care will also learn about commenting if no one checks the "helpful" box. I LEARN FROM COMMENTS I'VE MADE, BY LOOKING TO SEE IF THE PHOTOGRAPHER FOUND IT HELPFUL. Generalization as this isn't 110% foolproof, but works for me.
Bottom line...In general, people are trying to be helpful and I'm going to continue believing that.
Message edited by author 2007-06-02 10:23:01. |
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06/02/2007 10:26:21 AM · #114 |
I checked the profiles of various people who "called out" comments in this thread. I thought the following statistics were interesting. Since I don't want to make this about the people, I'm not attaching names to these.
MADE RCVD
---- ----
1. 135 187
2. 1354 1803
3. 539 901
4. 256 205
5. 929 1382
6. 68 87
I find it interesting that of the 6 profiles I looked at, 5 of them had more comments received than made (note: yes, I'm well aware that so do I; I'm also not complaining about comments). Only one was a member of the critique club
Experience has taught me that the surest way to effect change in any community is to lead with a positive example. I submit that any or all of the following actions are more productive than just complaining about the problem.
* Comment on more entries. Here's an extra incentive to do that.
* Join the Critique Club
* If you are already a CC member, write some critiques.
* If you receive a comment that violates the Terms of Use, click the Report Post button to report it to Site Council.
* If you receive a comment that is just silly or pointless, let it go. It might not tell you much, but it's not hurting anyone either.
* If you receive a comment that is vague or you'd like more detail, consider sending a polite PM to the author requesting more detail. Remember, however, that he or she is not obligated to reply or to change the comment.
* Read the 9 Guidelines on Giving and Receiving Feedback tutorial.
* If you find someone who is not sure how to articulate their observations well, consider offering some polite, constructive suggestions. You might refer them to this same tutorial.
I believe that threads like this are at least as "pointless" as the comments in question, and probably more so, as these threads don't accomplish anything. If we all take it upon ourselves to lead by example in this area, the pointless comments become much less of a problem.
Just an observation, for what it's worth.
~Terry
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06/02/2007 10:38:55 AM · #115 |
Originally posted by bucket:
I find it strange that every time someone wants to complain about a comment on this site they are admonished. [...]But I do think it can be healthy to discuss the construction of a helpful comment. That would involve debating the merits of various types of comments. A thread like this isn't necessarily bad. It is treated like it is, in a dismissive condescending manner. I don't think that is right. |
This is one of the rare threads that has at least attempted to evolve into a discussion about the merits of various types of comments (although it seems to be more a discussion about discussions) but it wasn't started that way and the majority of threads in this vein aren't either. Rather, they usually consist of some collection of outraged photographers looking for consolation after having received a comment that they couldn't possibly deserve, so they post it up for public ridicule and send everyone off looking to see just who could be so stupid as to leave the horrible comment in question. Jackpot if the same stupid person left a comment for more than one of the thread's participants. I see no value in that. There's no attempt to discern what makes a valuable comment there. Sure, a reader can get a sense of what's not appreciated but that's not the point of the discussion.
General threads about comments and critiques, their various merits, (de)construction of them, etc., don't seem to draw much interest. Attack and scorn is much more popular. |
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06/02/2007 11:07:08 AM · #116 |
Originally posted by mk:
Originally posted by bucket:
I find it strange that every time someone wants to complain about a comment on this site they are admonished. [...]But I do think it can be healthy to discuss the construction of a helpful comment. That would involve debating the merits of various types of comments. A thread like this isn't necessarily bad. It is treated like it is, in a dismissive condescending manner. I don't think that is right. |
This is one of the rare threads that has at least attempted to evolve into a discussion about the merits of various types of comments (although it seems to be more a discussion about discussions) but it wasn't started that way and the majority of threads in this vein aren't either. Rather, they usually consist of some collection of outraged photographers looking for consolation after having received a comment that they couldn't possibly deserve, so they post it up for public ridicule and send everyone off looking to see just who could be so stupid as to leave the horrible comment in question. Jackpot if the same stupid person left a comment for more than one of the thread's participants. I see no value in that. There's no attempt to discern what makes a valuable comment there. Sure, a reader can get a sense of what's not appreciated but that's not the point of the discussion.
General threads about comments and critiques, their various merits, (de)construction of them, etc., don't seem to draw much interest. Attack and scorn is much more popular. |
I think you are right...
but every time a thread like this comes up someone adds one of those 'all comments are good...if you don't like my thoughts too bad' , and I find this annoying, thought this might be a chance to address it... |
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06/02/2007 11:33:42 AM · #117 |
Originally posted by bucket:
...
but every time a thread like this comes up someone adds one of those 'all comments are good...if you don't like my thoughts too bad' , and I find this annoying, thought this might be a chance to address it... |
I might argue that all comments are "useful" even if they aren't "good." Even a clearly negative comment is at least an indication that the person was moved or affected enough by the image to not just click a vote (or worse, pass) and move on.
Whenever I can, I try to have my entry have some sort of message or motivation, incorporating the challenge topic, but trying to relate it to modern (or sometimes past or future) life and society.* Those images are sometimes controversial, offensive, and/or obscure, and I extect a substantial number of comments from people who either don't get it, don't like it, or both. I also get some comments from people who do ...
To me, the ideal scoring curve would resemble an inverted bell curve, skewed somewhat to the right, with comments to match.
*Some examples:
//dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=471399
//dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=483617
//dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=506222
Discussion thread |
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06/02/2007 03:06:33 PM · #118 |
Originally posted by bucket:
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
Originally posted by larryslights:
Originally posted by L2:
When people post threads complaining about certain kinds of comments, it discourages ALL comments.
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Says who? |
Says over 5 years of past experience, past threads, and past tickets. I can't even tell you how many times people have come out and said they were going to stop commenting (or stop commenting on low scores) over threads like this.
~Terry |
How many people over 5 years have stopped entering their shots, because of the conforming nature of the comments? How many people have left this site because of expressing different points of view than the 'dpc' mindset only to be ridiculed? When that happens I have read comments in the forums that go something like "well, too bad, they couldn't take it..".
I am not advocating an attack on people who comment. I do think a discussion of what a valuable comment looks like can be a positive part of this site. That would require people to mention things that aren't helpful. If we can all handle any sort of reaction to our photos, why can't we do the same with our comments. I think it comes from the misguided concept that when we comment we are doing someone else a favour, and how dare they complain. When you provide a comment, you are exercising your freedom to express yourself, you are developing your critical eye, you are potentially opening doors of communication with another person from another part of the world.
I am not a big fan of 'if you don't like my comments too bad, they are my thoughts'. Not when the person responds to these thoughts and all of a sudden "their thoughts" are considered offensive. In this we lose the chance to debate, discuss, and argue. We lose a bigger opportunity to learn.
If someone wanted to complain about something I wrote, I would welcome their comment, try to find a way to communicate with them in a way that they could benefit from my comment. If I don't care how someone reacts to my comments, then my actions are self-serving and I am simply developing my own ego, gaining some sort of sense of superiority. |
This is what I have been trying to say and haven't been able to express it well. Thank you. I think any comment should be open to discussion just as any photo. For example rude comments. And also comments that point out something I did purposely and look at it as a mistake... why is it not ok to express your goals as an artist and say what you intended?
Well because more and more I find this site is not about art but paradigms of popular styles and image types and conformity. I have thought about leaving several times because of this, and not due to my own ego but because time and time again I see mediocre images in the top 10 while some amazing gems end up washed up in the gutter. I stay because I like the comments that mean something, that think, and I like having themes to keep me going. If I can't defend myself againt rude comments, then I don't see the point. |
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06/03/2007 07:43:22 PM · #119 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
This is what I have been trying to say and haven't been able to express it well. Thank you. I think any comment should be open to discussion just as any photo. For example rude comments. And also comments that point out something I did purposely and look at it as a mistake... why is it not ok to express your goals as an artist and say what you intended? |
I had a private conversation with escape about my comment. I explained and refined what I meant, even rewrote my comment a little, and she told me where she was coming from. It was a fruitful and educational exchange, at least from my point of view. So maybe this whole commenting about comments thing isn't so bad after all? :) |
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06/03/2007 09:41:01 PM · #120 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
This is what I have been trying to say and haven't been able to express it well. Thank you. I think any comment should be open to discussion just as any photo. For example rude comments. And also comments that point out something I did purposely and look at it as a mistake... why is it not ok to express your goals as an artist and say what you intended? |
I had a private conversation with escape about my comment. I explained and refined what I meant, even rewrote my comment a little, and she told me where she was coming from. It was a fruitful and educational exchange, at least from my point of view. So maybe this whole commenting about comments thing isn't so bad after all? :) |
If people would discuss rather than thrust/parry/riposte it could be a fruitful exercise indeed. |
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06/03/2007 10:50:14 PM · #121 |
Originally posted by L2:
This is exactly the kind of thread that makes others not want to comment at all. |
I think open and honest discussions about comments we receive can only be helpful and educational. There will always be the occasional smart ass, the obvious idiot, the silly jokers, and those comments that seem so very meaningless. But we need to accept the overall good with the minority bad, and discount that which we can't use for our own betterment. In the mean time, lets talk about the comments we get and learn from other peoples input on what they think might constitute a beneficial or non-beneficial comment. I'm all for freedom of speech. Banning discussions about comments would be so "Gestapo". And I don't believe discussing what we perceive as inappropriate or totally ignorant comments will stop anyone from making comments. In fact, it would more probably do the exact opposite. |
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06/03/2007 11:10:44 PM · #122 |
Originally posted by Scholten:
Originally posted by L2:
This is exactly the kind of thread that makes others not want to comment at all. |
I think open and honest discussions about comments we receive can only be helpful and educational. There will always be the occasional smart ass, the obvious idiot, the silly jokers, and those comments that seem so very meaningless. But we need to accept the overall good with the minority bad, and discount that which we can't use for our own betterment. In the mean time, lets talk about the comments we get and learn from other peoples input on what they think might constitute a beneficial or non-beneficial comment. I'm all for freedom of speech. Banning discussions about comments would be so "Gestapo". And I don't believe discussing what we perceive as inappropriate or totally ignorant comments will stop anyone from making comments. In fact, it would more probably do the exact opposite. |
No one is talking about banning discussions about comments. I merely made the observation that complaining about the ones that you do receive isn't at all likely to lead to more or better ones; instead, it is more likely that it will lead to people giving up on commenting altogether. If people were actually having open and honest discussions about what makes a great comment, that's one thing. Here, the main thrust of the original post was to disparage the efforts of others.
It seems that most people who complain about their comments have taken offense where none was intended, or they disagree with the criticism in the name of artistic expression, or they seem to feel that they deserve a better or more thoughtful critique. They otherwise come across as appearing to have a sense of entitlement to the best and most positive comments ever.
The people who do these things really just ruin it for others, but whatever.
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06/03/2007 11:27:47 PM · #123 |
Originally posted by L2:
If people were actually having open and honest discussions about what makes a great comment, that's one thing. |
See this thread ... |
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06/03/2007 11:37:49 PM · #124 |
[quote=ssodell] I just received a comment that said, "ok". I can't see the expression on your face while you say "ok", or the tone in your voice when you say "ok" and it just leaves me wondering what the hell are you thinking, is it good or bad? please tell me. Anyway, I just forget about it and move on. Would be nice to know what they think though using real words. [/quote
I got the same exact comment
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06/03/2007 11:46:49 PM · #125 |
Maybe comments should have 2 categories, technical comments (about technique and composition), and personal comments. Then people could ignore one or the other if they have a prefrence.
I shoot because I enjoy being able to share the images. If someone takes a moment to look at one of my images and make a comment, I know that I have shared the image with someone. So to me, any comment is not pointless, no matter what the content. (re the thread title)
I try to leave at least as many commemts as I recieve. Usually I try to find time to return a comment on an image in the commenters portfolio.
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