Adobe RGB 1998 workflow - DPChallenge Forums

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

01/31/2007 02:25:44 PM · #1

i can't find the the thread i was looking for - so i'll start a new one.

i almost always shoot in RAW

i read a bit about the sRGB vs Adobe RGB 1998 and decided to set the camera to Adobe RGB for a few test shots. one thing i noticed is on the 10d i no longer can choose a parameter ( usually i have everything turned off ). so my first question is what exactly are the camera settings used when in Adobe RGB and why can't i adjust them?

and the second would be what is the work flow in PS7 for properly editing in the Adobe RGB 1998 color space for sRGB web or printer output.

this is what i have done:

open the RAW file in RSE - export using Adobe RGB 1998 as the output color space.

open PS7 - set the working space to Adobe RGB 1998.

open the 16bit TIFF from the RAW file - and saved the embedded color profile at the dialog.

i then went to view - proof set up. i set the proofing to be windows RGB or monitor RGB - i don't see a difference here.

the image appears to be pretty flat now - depsite my slight adjustments in the RAW converter.

i go on to edit the file so it looks good while viewing the proof set up. i also checked for out of gamut colors a few times.

when happy with the result - i saved as for web assuming it would be forced into sRGB - but because i proofed the colors - it should look on the web as in PS7. close but a tad flat. i didn't actual;ly convert the image to sRGB.

what i am wondering is... is this the proper way to modify this image for sRGB output. with the preview proofing off the image looks totally over edited - colors are very saturated. BTW the image is scoring above a 6 at the moment do i didn't screw things up too badly ;}

my only real goal with this would be to archive the original ( working file ) in as high a quality as possible.

quiet_observation

Canon EOS-7D

01/31/2007 02:39:09 PM · #2

There are really many questions here.

For DPC challenge submissions only:

preparing tutorial - look at the section on converting to sRGB

This is not for printer output - what you do for printing depends on what printer you will be using or where you are going to send your prints.

If you want to have an edited file available for various web or print outputs save to a PSD or TIFF before you resize, sharpen, or convert to sRGB.

You will have your 1) your original unedited raw file, 2) your edited file in PSD or TIFF format before print specific changes, and as many .jpeg output files as you need to produce various output.

01/31/2007 03:02:59 PM · #3

so the edit that is going to be 'saved as for web' should look all tripped out in the working color space, but not when i am proofing the output space?

01/31/2007 03:06:45 PM · #4

Hey soup, there is one question I can answer for you really quickly. If you are shooting RAW, the Adobe RGB parameter in-camera doesn't matter, it can be set to anything. That parameter only works for JPEGs.

Setting for Adobe RGB in RAW conversion is where the workflow starts.

01/31/2007 03:11:47 PM · #5

right but it will be affecting the embedded JPEG - so theorhetically - my RAW and JPEG files could look completely different?

i see no way to set the parameters when in Adobe RGB - when i power up the top LCD says PA - A. normally it would PA - 2 my custom set parameters even when shooting RAW.

Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

are you saying i don't need to record an image in Adobe RGB? but just to convert it in the RAW convertor? i don't see how i would maximizing color data doing this...

Message edited by author 2007-01-31 15:12:03.

01/31/2007 03:17:37 PM · #6

Your concerns are exactly the same as mine and your workflow is basically similar to mine. You process and save your images with the highest amount of data possible. This approach will always serve you well for any output, be it web or print.

Here are a few things to keep in mind:

1-As you already do, always save a high quality post processing master file with all your layers and use that as the source for web or print output.

2-If you are processing for web output only then you usually don't need to pay attention to "proof setup" at all.

The purpose of "proof setup" is to mimic an output device other than your current monitor. "Proof setup" is what takes over when you check "proof colors" under the View menu. If "proof colors" is NOT checked then PS assumes your current monitor profile for display. That is exactly what you want 99.99% of the time for web output.

For example, my "proof setup" is currently custom set for my printer and luster paper. I only turn on "proof colors" when I want to simulate on my display screen output for printing.

3-Adobe RGB (1998) is a robust color space compared to sRGB and that is why images look 'flat' if you fail to convert them from Adobe RGB (1998) to sRGB before saving them for web output.

The web uses sRGB, so always output an sRGB file for web. In my workflow I have a step where I select "Convert to Profile". In that step it both flattens the image and converts it to sRGB. I do that just before I crop, resize and sharpen. My output always looks correct uploaded to the web.

4-Generally speaking, You need to worry about "Out of Gamut" only if you are simulating an output for something other than your monitor, like a printer/paper combination, for example.

And you would only do that when "proof colors" is selected and you have custom selected your printer/paper in "Proof Setup".

Message edited by author 2007-01-31 15:19:04.

01/31/2007 03:17:40 PM · #7

Originally posted by soup:

are you saying i don't need to record an image in Adobe RGB? but just to convert it in the RAW convertor? i don't see how i would maximizing color data doing this...

RAW data doesn't include color space info. It is exactly what it's name implies, unprocessed data directly from the sensor. Conversion applies the color space.

And yes, the embedded JPEG's would have the in-camera color space applied, but IMO, srgb is a better option for those, because it gives you more accurate thumbs and previews to browse.

01/31/2007 03:52:32 PM · #8

thank you !! i actually searched your screen name for threads on the subject - but the search thing isn't so great here ;}

Originally posted by stdavidson:

Your concerns are exactly the same as mine and your workflow is basically similar to mine. You process and save your images with the highest amount of data possible. This approach will always serve you well for any output, be it web or print.

Here are a few things to keep in mind:

1-As you already do, always save a high quality post processing master file with all your layers and use that as the source for web or print output.

2-If you are processing for web output only then you usually don't need to pay attention to "proof setup" at all.

The purpose of "proof setup" is to mimic an output device other than your current monitor. "Proof setup" is what takes over when you check "proof colors" under the View menu. If "proof colors" is NOT checked then PS assumes your current monitor profile for display. That is exactly what you want 99.99% of the time for web output.

For example, my "proof setup" is currently custom set for my printer and luster paper. I only turn on "proof colors" when I want to simulate on my display screen output for printing.

3-Adobe RGB (1998) is a robust color space compared to sRGB and that is why images look 'flat' if you fail to convert them from Adobe RGB (1998) to sRGB before saving them for web output.

The web uses sRGB, so always output an sRGB file for web. In my workflow I have a step where I select "Convert to Profile". In that step it both flattens the image and converts it to sRGB. I do that just before I crop, resize and sharpen. My output always looks correct uploaded to the web.

4-Generally speaking, You need to worry about "Out of Gamut" only if you are simulating an output for something other than your monitor, like a printer/paper combination, for example.

And you would only do that when "proof colors" is selected and you have custom selected your printer/paper in "Proof Setup".

so leave the camera set to sRGB? why would they have the adobe RGB as an option if you can acheive the same thing after the fact. i would think that the color space setting would affect the RAW file data - ie larger color space would result in more colors being recorded - therefore a larger file size. i question that i would get the same result by pushing an sRGB image into the larger Adobe RGB color space -vs shooting in Adobe RGB to begin with.

Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

Message edited by author 2007-01-31 15:52:56.

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L USM

01/31/2007 04:07:24 PM · #9

Originally posted by soup:

I'm at a loss to explain it myself, but I did locate a link for ya...

//ronbigelow.com/articles/raw3/raw3.htm

Scroll down to RAW Converter Advantage #8.

This is where raw gains another advantage. The raw file has not had a color space assigned to it. Rather, this generally occurs at the time of the conversion. Thus, shooting in raw provides color space flexibility. The photographer can choose the color space that best matches the color space of the device that will be used to present the image. This is especially advantageous when the photograph will be used with more than one output device. In this case, the photographer can perform a separate conversion for each application, individually selecting the color space for each use.

Message edited by author 2007-01-31 16:08:25.

Ristyz

Apple iPhone 12 Pro

01/31/2007 04:16:57 PM · #10

Everything Steve said...... but you must change the profile to sRGB just before you save for web for maximum pop for web use.

I leave every file Adobe RGB for everything else.... printing included!

01/31/2007 04:18:30 PM · #11

got it - so that sort of eliminates one of my steps - so to speak.
so the catch would be if i were to want to output the embedded JPEG for some reason. if that's the case the adobe RGB setting would be best.

if i am going to use the RAW file ( which i have to seeing as i can't figure out out to view the embedded JPEGS ) i can set the parameter settings i want for the JPEG file - at the same time leaving my RAW file un-affected.

perfect i managed something semi-productive at work today ;}

Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

I'm at a loss to explain it myself, but I did locate a link for ya...

//ronbigelow.com/articles/raw3/raw3.htm

Scroll down to RAW Converter Advantage #8.

01/31/2007 04:20:57 PM · #12

so 'save-as-for-web' doesn't force the file to sRGB? i only noticed a very slight dulling w/o converting to sRGB - but that may have just been this particular file.

Originally posted by Ristyz:

Everything Steve said...... but you must change the profile to sRGB just before you save for web for maximum pop for web use.

I leave every file Adobe RGB for everything else.... printing included!

Message edited by author 2007-01-31 16:21:12.

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L USM

01/31/2007 04:22:00 PM · #13

Originally posted by soup:

Yup, you got it :-)

Ristyz

Apple iPhone 12 Pro

01/31/2007 04:29:33 PM · #14

Correct, Save for web does not force it to sRGB, you have to set it that way. I do it just before I hit save for web. Another note. When I save fore web (after changing the profile) it doesn't match.... the image show a little darker in the "save for web" box. I work around this by also lightening my image just before I save to the sRGB profile. It does the same thing in the same increment to every image so I just know to lighten using levels everytime. I'm sure there is a way around this but I have my monitor and printer set to each other so in my case I don't make any adjustments. My prints matching are far more important than spending 2 seconds with a slider when saving for the web and DPC.

edit to add: yours may or may not shift.... I just mentioned it JIC!

Originally posted by soup:

so 'save-as-for-web' doesn't force the file to sRGB? i only noticed a very slight dulling w/o converting to sRGB - but that may have just been this particular file.

Originally posted by Ristyz:
Everything Steve said...... but you must change the profile to sRGB just before you save for web for maximum pop for web use.

I leave every file Adobe RGB for everything else.... printing included!

Message edited by author 2007-01-31 16:31:05.

01/31/2007 04:32:30 PM · #15

Originally posted by soup:

... so leave the camera set to sRGB? why would they have the adobe RGB as an option if you can acheive the same thing after the fact. i would think that the color space setting would affect the RAW file data - ie larger color space would result in more colors being recorded - therefore a larger file size. i question that i would get the same result by pushing an sRGB image into the larger Adobe RGB color space -vs shooting in Adobe RGB to begin with.

Oh my goodness... Please, please... Set your camera to save in Adobe RGB (1998). If you don't do that you will be throwing away data in your source files that you want to keep and is the whole reason for processing the way you already do!!!!

With the Sony F-717 that I used to have, which only saved images in sRGB and .jpg, I ALWAYS immediately converted that to Adobe RGB (1998) as the very first step in workflow before I did ANY processing and saved all my master files as Adobe RGB (1998). That makes a huge difference, even under those conditions, when it comes to prints. Processing everything in 16-bit Adobe RGB (1998) will yield a better final image in both print and in web output because tonality is always better.

You can get away with a lot with images processed exclusively for sRGB images and DPC submissions that you cannot get away with for prints. There is a big difference in tonality when printing.

01/31/2007 04:35:49 PM · #16

Originally posted by stdavidson:

Not with RAW, but it does affect the embedded JPEG.

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

01/31/2007 04:38:32 PM · #17

Originally posted by Ristyz:

That's usually because the 'save for web' dialog box has a semi-hidden colour profile option in it, under the !> diamond in the top of the dialog box. It is often set to the wrong setting, which makes the images look incorrect, even though they are in sRGB colour spaces.

01/31/2007 04:40:19 PM · #18

Originally posted by Gordon:

WOW, I didn't know that... now I learned something :-)

01/31/2007 04:47:37 PM · #19

Originally posted by Ristyz:

Everything Steve said...... but you must change the profile to sRGB just before you save for web for maximum pop for web use.

I leave every file Adobe RGB for everything else.... printing included!

You are correct! I obviously was not clear about that conversion. In my workflow I both flatten the image and convert it from RGB (1998) to sRGB in one important workflow step just before croping, resizing, sharpening and saving.

Usually, I do NOT use "save for web" unless I am concerned about the 150/200kb size limit. I like to save camera and EXIF data whenever possible.

01/31/2007 05:04:49 PM · #20

Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by Ristyz:
Correct, Save for web does not force it to sRGB, you have to set it that way. I do it just before I hit save for web. Another note. When I save fore web (after changing the profile) it doesn't match.... the image show a little darker in the "save for web" box. I work around this by also lightening my image just before I save to the sRGB profile. It does the same thing in the same increment to every image so I just know to lighten using levels everytime. I'm sure there is a way around this but I have my monitor and printer set to each other so in my case I don't make any adjustments. My prints matching are far more important than spending 2 seconds with a slider when saving for the web and DPC.

edit to add: yours may or may not shift.... I just mentioned it JIC!

That's usually because the 'save for web' dialog box has a semi-hidden colour profile option in it, under the !> diamond in the top of the dialog box. It is often set to the wrong setting, which makes the images look incorrect, even though they are in sRGB colour spaces.

As usually is correct, Gordon is right. When saving in RAW there is no color space assigned. RAW is RAW. In my 10d CAMERA I set "Parameters" to "Adobe RGB" and "Quality" to "RAW" to be sure I capture Adobe RGB no matter what settings I have.

Gordon and I accomplish the same thing for sRGB conversion for web output, we just do it in different ways. The important thing to remember is that sRGB conversion occur correctly, whichever way you chose to do it.

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

01/31/2007 05:09:33 PM · #21

Originally posted by stdavidson:

Gordon and I accomplish the same thing for sRGB conversion for web output, we just do it in different ways. The important thing to remember is that sRGB conversion occur correctly, whichever way you chose to do it.

Actually we don't do it in different ways, really. I work in ProPhoto and convert to sRGB right before I save the file, just as you described. But if you do that, then go into 'Save for Web' there is potential for yet another colour shift, because the 'save for web' dialog has a variety of profile settings you pick from for how it displays the image.

01/31/2007 05:47:00 PM · #22

but if i am shooting solely in RAW - with no concern for the embedded JPEG ( which i can't seem to ever un-embed ) - according to that link the camera sensor may actually have a wider gamut color space than Adobe RGB 1998. if that is true there is no harm in converting to Adobe RGB 1998 from sRGB as the output color space from Raw Shooter Premium - or any other RAW conversion software.

at least thats what i gathered. i still sort of question that. a comparison of an Adobe RGB 1998 RAW file to an sRGB RAW file might be in order. if the Adobe RGB file is larger than it would seem you are getting more out of it.

Originally posted by stdavidson:

01/31/2007 05:48:59 PM · #23

i generally save as a regular JPEG outside of DPC for the same reason - but i forget sometimes....

Originally posted by stdavidson:

Usually, I do NOT use "save for web" unless I am concerned about the 150/200kb size limit. I like to save camera and EXIF data whenever possible.

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

01/31/2007 05:55:55 PM · #24

Originally posted by soup:

The issue is that you are phrasing it as a somewhat meaningless question.

The RAW file is in a linear (camera specific) colourspace. It gets converted/ massaged into whatever colour space you start with. So the idea of 'sRGB RAW' or 'AdobeRGB RAW' is meaningless. The RAW files are always in the device linear colourspace.

Most cameras do capture in a wider colourspace than AdobeRGB. That's why quite a few people edit in wider colourspaces, such as ProPhoto. But, as there is still a fixed number of levels between max & min colours, if you spread them out more (wider gamut) then the steps between them have to be larger)

Think about two ladders, each with 100 rungs. One goes to a height of 5m and the other goes to a height of 10m. The rungs get further apart.

16 bit editing helps with this, as it is equivalent to throwing you more rungs - the start and end point are the same, just more steps between.

If you use AdobeRGB or sRGB there will be colours your camera can capture, that you'll never see. This can include very saturated oranges or yellows as well as a lot of blues & purple shades. However, even then, if you want to end up with the images for web display, you'll never be able to show them in an sRGB space either (which can be quite frustrating) If all you are ever going to do is put the pictures on the web, you might as well use sRGB all the way through. It is the lowest common denominator and kinda crappy, but if that is where you will always end up, why fight it ;)

Printers have a different set of colours they can or can't print - so ProPhoto at least gives you the potential to print those colours in those cases.

Message edited by author 2007-01-31 17:59:10.