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01/24/2007 05:22:50 AM · #51 |
Originally posted by mist:
Originally posted by yanko:
What he said. I can't understand why people give quality images a 1 vote because they think it's DNMC. It's rather arrogant in my opinion and often those same people end up being wrong. |
By that sort of logic, any low or high vote could be considered "arrogant". After all, it is just an opinion like anything else.
I certainly don't just give an automatic vote based on any one particular thing, but, at the same time, a photo that doesn't meet the challenge is never going to get a great vote from me, because I consider meeting the challenge to be the point.
If you submit a fantastic wide-angle photo of a church into an abstract macro contest, you've not done what was being asked for, so, in my view, arrogant or not, there's no way that that deserves to be ranked highly amongst people who have actually tried to do what was asked for. |
Your example is hardly representative of the type of entries I'm talking about. Sure there will be the occasional odd ball submitted like that but those are always mistakes of entering the wrong challenge and not ones where people later on actually complain about.
I'm talking about the type of entries where it's "inconclusive" to determine DNMC, which in my opinion are the majority of entries labeled DNMC. Take for example the current Wildlife challenge. If you believe zoo shots are DNMC unless you see the cage, a tag on the animal that says "San Diego Zoo" or some plastic wood log in the background that says "Made in China" you are not going to know for sure it's a zoo shot yet that won't stop many from handing out slews of 1s, 2s and 3s. That's the arrogant part, IMO. It's thinking you know everything and there's no possible way this entry can meet the challenge. Oh how I wish DNMC votes were only handed out on entries like your example. |
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01/24/2007 06:48:12 AM · #52 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Oh how I wish DNMC votes were only handed out on entries like your example. |
That is a fair point and I can't really disagree with you there. I try to exercise a measure of favour in decided what does meet the challenge, but I know a lot of people are much stricter and more ridged.
Going to your example, personally I think it's harsh to put a DNMC stamp on a zoo-set wildlife shot - if only because these days zoos do try to recreate natural environments wherever possible. At the same time though, the onus would also be on the photog to eliminate any tell-tale signs from such a shot. |
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01/24/2007 06:52:19 AM · #53 |
As an example of assumptions I recieved this comment on a previous wildlife challenge:
Given the spirit of the challenge was to capture a shot of wildlife in its natural environment, I find it most difficult to believe that this was done with your entry. Needless to say my vote on this was very low given those circumstances. When a photo does not do its best in composition to depict actual challenge guidelines, my stadegy for voting immediately stops and it becomes a DNMC to me.
That commenter assumed that monkeys do not roam free. What he couldn't know was that I was in South India at the time and the wild monkeys are more common than dogs.
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01/24/2007 07:14:22 AM · #54 |
| In the match challenge, 7 out of the top 10 are stick matches, even though the challenge description allowed many other things. The voters don't vote dnmc shots high. I, myself, like to see a little more variety when voting, and allow different interpretations. I'd rather see a good photo that loosely fits the challenge, than a poor one that hits the challenge dead on. |
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01/24/2007 10:59:16 AM · #55 |
Originally posted by cloudsme:
I'd rather see a good photo that loosely fits the challenge, than a poor one that hits the challenge dead on. |
I wouldn't prefer either one. Sometimes I (and others) vote highly for a technically deficient shot that nails it. And sometimes I vote higher for something that's loose but is excellent.
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01/24/2007 11:03:47 AM · #56 |
| I can't help but see the irony in the fact that this thread shares the front page with this one. Completely the opposite complaint, LOL. |
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01/24/2007 11:04:22 AM · #57 |
Originally posted by cloudsme:
In the match challenge, 7 out of the top 10 are stick matches, even though the challenge description allowed many other things. The voters don't vote dnmc shots high. I, myself, like to see a little more variety when voting, and allow different interpretations. I'd rather see a good photo that loosely fits the challenge, than a poor one that hits the challenge dead on. |
Actually 8 of the top 10 have a match in them which came as a surprise to me. But then I looked at my own votes, and 9 out of my top 10 had matches :-)
But I agree that the interpretation of the topic seemed quite narrow. |
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01/24/2007 11:23:08 AM · #58 |
Originally posted by kirbic:
I can't help but see the irony in the fact that this thread shares the front page with this one. Completely the opposite complaint, LOL. |
Eh? They seem like the same concept: confusion at high votes for DNMC. However, we've managed to keep this one an abstract discussion of how people think as opposed to discussing one image, which makes me happy. :)
But I agree that the timing is funny; I had no specific image in mind when I started this. It's something I've been wondering about for quite some time.
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01/24/2007 11:47:59 AM · #59 |
Originally posted by levyj413:
I'm sure this has been discussed before, so if someone could point to a relevant thread, I'll just go read that.
I'm baffled by people who leave comments like "this is completely outside the challenge, but it's great! 9."
Why participate in a site that gives out assignments if you're going to vote highly regardless of whether the assignment is met? What sets our normal challenges apart from free studies with that voting approach?
I'm not trying to start another argument about out of the box thinking. I'm asking only about people who, despite deciding that a shot doesn't meet the challenge, still vote highly.
I'm truly asking, not trying to convince anyone to change their minds.
Thanks. |
Probably, because people find some little flaw, and vote "1". Oops you used Hard Cider which is neither "beer" nor is it a "soft drink" because it has alcohol.
Sorry bro...but going to give you a "1".
OR
The challenge was purple. Because the whole image is purple I am going to assume that you actually just hue shifted and give you a low score. The fact that you're snake is a blueish-grey. And that it was under a flourescent light that gave a more purple tint. And that you used a purple plastic clipboard for a background to get it all nicely purple.
Nope, that doesn't matter. We assume you're a liar.
The DNMC will continue to be a contention for ages. But that said, most entries that clearly don't meet the challenge usually score on the bottom.
*shrug* |
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01/24/2007 12:06:48 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by davyaldy:
When I vote, I start out giving each photo 10 points and then taking points off for dnmc, poor quality etc. thus if a pic is dnmc but is still very nice it can still get 5 from me. However, if it sucks and dnmc, it gets a 1. |
I also vote this way. If I don't feel it meets challenge, I will not vote over a 5, no matter how nice the pic is. I base my voting on what I think the challenge means to me. Some pictures that I don't understand I will come back to, I don't immediatly shoot it down. I always try to find how it connects to the challenge from another point of view. That's just the way I am and I guess it comes from the type of work I do. When I give instructions, I expect them to be followed. |
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01/24/2007 12:36:36 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by piaffe529:
I also vote this way. If I don't feel it meets challenge, I will not vote over a 5, no matter how nice the pic is. I base my voting on what I think the challenge means to me. |
Not to pick on you specifically, but this is a frustrating mind-set you have described. For example, there was a "wealth" challenge a while ago and somebody had a lovely image of parched land and water. Where this person lives, water is wealth: it's a perfectly viable take on the idea of wealth in an arid, third-world country. The picture bombed. There were a LOT of DNMC comments, presumably from people who don't think of water as equating with wealth in any way.
Originally posted by piaffe529:
Some pictures that I don't understand I will come back to, I don't immediately shoot it down. I always try to find how it connects to the challenge from another point of view. |
That's much better, although it contradicts what you said above :-) That's how I vote. I start with the assumption that the image "meets the challenge" and try to broaden my understanding of how differently other people perceive the challenge than I do. I get bored to tears with scoring a hundred variations of the same, safe, predictable approach to meeting the challenge, and am delighted to see other takes on it. Every now and then, of course, I have to accept that a given image totally misses the mark, but that's not very often. MOST entries have a connection tot he challenge topic.
Originally posted by piaffe529:
That's just the way I am and I guess it comes from the type of work I do. When I give instructions, I expect them to be followed. |
This is the crux of the problem: it's not YOU giving the instructions, it's DPChallenge giving them. So what you're really saying is "I expect others to adhere to MY perception of what the challenge means." And personally I find this approach to be stifling. I don't go into voting with the intention of ruthlessly exorcising all who do not share my preconceptions. On the contrary, I vote with the idea that I am rooting for you to shake up my preconceptions, show me a different perspective on the challenge itself. I love it when you can do that!
Robt.
P.S. PLEASE realize that I'm not directing this at you personally, but just at a mindset that you happen to be describing here that is extremely common in DPC. Indeed, based on the content of your post, you actually show a willingness to explore apparently marginal entries with the idea they may be more relevant than you had thought at first glance.
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01/24/2007 01:10:13 PM · #62 |
Bear and others, I like your thinking. I'll harder try to approach things from the assumption that the photographer thought it fit and try to discern how.
But the question isn't "how much effort do you put into finding the connection." At least not in this thread. :)
What I'm trying to discover is why people leave comments indicating that they themselves think the picture doesn't meet the challenge, yet still score highly.
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01/24/2007 01:22:13 PM · #63 |
Not to pick on you specifically, but this is a frustrating mind-set you have described. For example, there was a "wealth" challenge a while ago and somebody had a lovely image of parched land and water. Where this person lives, water is wealth: it's a perfectly viable take on the idea of wealth in an arid, third-world country. The picture bombed. There were a LOT of DNMC comments, presumably from people who don't think of water as equating with wealth in any way.
Originally posted by piaffe529:
Some pictures that I don't understand I will come back to, I don't immediately shoot it down. I always try to find how it connects to the challenge from another point of view. |
That's much better, although it contradicts what you said above :-) That's how I vote. I start with the assumption that the image "meets the challenge" and try to broaden my understanding of how differently other people perceive the challenge than I do. I get bored to tears with scoring a hundred variations of the same, safe, predictable approach to meeting the challenge, and am delighted to see other takes on it. Every now and then, of course, I have to accept that a given image totally misses the mark, but that's not very often. MOST entries have a connection tot he challenge topic.
Not arguing, but I don't think it contradicts what I said. If it's questionable, I will come back to it and pick it apart and try to find how it fits the challenge. And try to see someone elses point of view. If I still don't see a connection, I vote it accordingly.
Originally posted by piaffe529:
That's just the way I am and I guess it comes from the type of work I do. When I give instructions, I expect them to be followed. |
This is the crux of the problem: it's not YOU giving the instructions, it's DPChallenge giving them. So what you're really saying is "I expect others to adhere to MY perception of what the challenge means." And personally I find this approach to be stifling. I don't go into voting with the intention of ruthlessly exorcising all who do not share my preconceptions. On the contrary, I vote with the idea that I am rooting for you to shake up my preconceptions, show me a different perspective on the challenge itself. I love it when you can do that!
I realize it's DPChallenge giving the instructions and it's up to me to try to see how each photo fits it according to what I feel the challenge means. As I said before, I don't immediatly shoot down a pic, I do go back to it and see if I can find that persons point of view. I wouldn't vote low in the example you gave, I see wealth in many different ways. I probably would of entered my 2 year old daughter. I'm sure I'd get lots of DNMC comments, but see is worth more than anything to me considering what I went through. So I do try to look at an entry and find how it fits. However, I will not score a picture high in for instance a "Cow" challenge and someone enters a picture of a duck swimming in water. Although if it was standing in cow poo, then it would be different :)
Robt.
P.S. PLEASE realize that I'm not directing this at you personally, but just at a mindset that you happen to be describing here that is extremely common in DPC. Indeed, based on the content of your post, you actually show a willingness to explore apparently marginal entries with the idea they may be more relevant than you had thought at first glance. [/quote]
My whole point exactly. I try to "get" what the person is trying to tell me. If I don't get it, I'm scoring it DNMC. I don't believe I've had to do many of them and when I do I put IMO, because that's what it is, my opinion.
Now, I need to get back to work :) I've probably rambled on and quoted/re-quoted to where people people are now scratching their heads wondering what the heck I'm talking about!! |
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01/24/2007 01:23:37 PM · #64 |
Your question is 'why would you vote high on a picture that doesn't meet the challenge, in your view' ? Well, why shouldn't you ?
Perhaps meeting the challenge is only worth 1 point in your mind, so a great photo that has nothing to do with the challenge, could easily be a 9. If it happened to meet the challenge, maybe it would be a 10 ?
The rules say you must vote on images as follows
1-bad
10-good
They also suggest later on that you should consider the challenge topic in how you score, and adjust it accordingly.
Nothing more. Nothing less.
So a 9 is potentially quite reasonable for a great picture that DNMC.
So is a 1.
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01/24/2007 03:08:12 PM · #65 |
I don't expect others to agree, but these are my considerations about DNMC:
1-Images must stand on their own photographic merit independent of the challenge topic.
2-The photographer always tries to meet the challenge even if I don't understand their logic. Always give the photographer the benefit of the doubt.
3-It is VERY rare images fail to meet the challenge so requires less consideration than photographic excellence.
4-Scores are raised for technically poor photographs that meet the challenge in what, to me, are creative or meaningful ways.
5-Photography is my main consideration. It is counterproductive to devote much thought or energy to the "meet the challenge" issue.
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01/24/2007 03:20:21 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
1-Images must stand on their own photographic merit independent of the challenge topic. |
This is also a high priority of mine when voting. Although some challenges make this very hard to accomplish but therein lies the challenge. Ursula is the first name that comes to mind who is able to accomplish this at will.
Message edited by author 2007-01-24 15:21:52. |
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01/24/2007 03:33:00 PM · #67 |
But... if we're "so open minded" as to allow for all images to "meet the challenge", then what's the use of having any kind of challenge theme at all? Why not make all challenges free studies then?
I think the photographer has to be able to communicate the idea photographically. And like all forms of communication, it's a two-way street. I have to be able to receive and understand the idea as well. And if that fails on either part (the photographer or me) then it does not meet the challenge.
So the goal isn't just to keep and open mind and simply score all excellent photos highly. The goal, to me, is to be open to new ideas, but if it doesn't fit (for me), then it doesn't fit. And since it's "my" opinion that I'm voting, I'm obligated to vote accordingly. Someone else will quite likely see things differently and more power to them.
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01/24/2007 03:52:07 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by kirbic:
I can't help but see the irony in the fact that this thread shares the front page with this one. Completely the opposite complaint, LOL. |
Aren't they both the same complaint ?
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01/24/2007 04:42:58 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by dwterry:
But... if we're "so open minded" as to allow for all images to "meet the challenge", then what's the use of having any kind of challenge theme at all? Why not make all challenges free studies then?
... |
This question has probably been answered more often by now than it has been asked in numerous threads, including this one. |
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01/24/2007 04:47:29 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by dwterry:
But... if we're "so open minded" as to allow for all images to "meet the challenge", then what's the use of having any kind of challenge theme at all? Why not make all challenges free studies then? |
The answer to your questions is simple... A challenge topic provides motivation by supplying a reason for taking pictures. Some people need that, others don't. Challenge topics encourage photographers to expand their horizons and attempt pictures they otherwise might not ever try.
The problem with penalizing photographers because they don't meet our personal expectations with DNMC votes only serves to discourage participation and creativity.
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01/24/2007 05:32:52 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by dwterry:
But... if we're "so open minded" as to allow for all images to "meet the challenge", then what's the use of having any kind of challenge theme at all? Why not make all challenges free studies then? |
Exactly the same value as having people sit there and DNMC=1 any photo they can find any possible reason for. Be they right or wrong. Essentially, telling the photographer "I believe you're a liar...so here's a 1". |
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01/24/2007 05:35:59 PM · #72 |
Perhaps, just perhaps, no one wants to be called DNMC Nazi... seems you are damned if ya do, damned if ya don't .
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01/31/2007 01:19:11 PM · #73 |
** Potental Hijacking Warning **
Call me a DNMC Nazi all you want. Art is appreciation and interpretation and no one is going to tell me that photography is not Art.
Challenges to me are not about what the photographer 'thought' when they titled and posted the image. It is about whether or not the photographer managed to communicate the thought to me either iconicly or educationally or emotionally.
If I don't get it, because of my lack of experience or intelligence or humor, then the photographer missed the mark with me. If I can't jump out of the box and say to myself, "well, that COULD be interpreted this way," then the photo could be the next cover of National Geo, GQ, or an Ansel Adams for all I care it gets a 1 - because the story it had to tell did not speak MY language.
I hold the challenge details in high regard. If your image cannot reach me in the spirit of the challenge it cannot rate high to me. |
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