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DPChallenge Forums >> Web Site Suggestions >> Suggested Editing Rules Part 2
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Showing posts 76 - 100 of 158, (reverse)
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 06/05/2003 08:00:22 AM · #76
And also, not everyone voting will have bothered to read the threads, and so the results will probably stay pretty much the same as last time, give or take.

Message edited by author 2003-06-05 08:00:48.
 06/05/2003 08:08:01 AM · #77
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Based on these threads, I doubt there is enough support for the idea to warrant a new poll. There aren't many people willing to try new things...


I think most of the people feel like me. I'm excited at the idea of learning new techniques and bettering other areas of my photography, but at the same time I'm terrified of spoiling the one place on the net where I feel at home. I would hate to see this place turn into some super-techno-junky hangout. I'm not saying this will happen overnight, or even happen at all, but it might. I just don't know if I'd like to take that chance.
06/05/2003 08:09:09 AM · #78
I really like everything about the entire DPChallenge experience with this one minor exception. I like the contest... I like the 'community'... and I like the general look and feel of the entire site.

The challenges are fun for sure... They keep me thinking about ideas that I probably never would have even considered. They keep me looking for unique ways to do things. They keep me looking for a creative edge.

When I prepare for a challenge, I spend a lot of time thinking about what I want to do and shooting photos for it. To me, it's just a little disheartening to spend that amount of effort for a photo contest and then not be allowed to enter the best possible result of my efforts because of some minor editing restriction that is in place.

I will now get on the bandwagon of all those who are against change and possible new growth. Change is not good. What we have works fine so why change anything?
 06/05/2003 08:12:15 AM · #79
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Based on these threads, I doubt there is enough support for the idea to warrant a new poll. There aren't many people willing to try new things...

Okay, enough of the guilt trip.
That's certainly not the impression I've tried to put across, and it's not the impression I've got from others.
 06/05/2003 08:12:26 AM · #80
Originally posted by Konador:
And also, not everyone voting will have bothered to read the threads, and so the results will probably stay pretty much the same as last time, give or take.


I don't think that matters. This has been discussed before and just about everybody knows what's been said. Besides, you could always summarise all the pros and cons discussed here and make it required reading before voting. Something like the "I've read and understood the submission rules" thingy.

Message edited by author 2003-06-05 08:13:52.
 06/05/2003 08:13:26 AM · #81
Originally posted by Martus:
Originally posted by Konador:
And also, not everyone voting will have bothered to read the threads, and so the results will probably stay pretty much the same as last time, give or take.


I don't think that matters. This has been discussed before and just about everybody knows what's been said. Besides, you could always summarise all the pro's and con's discussed here and make it required reading before voting. Something like the "I've read and understood the submission rules" thingy.


But how many people don't read the rules but tick the box anyway? :)
 06/05/2003 08:18:20 AM · #82
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I really like everything about the entire DPChallenge experience with this one minor exception. I like the contest... I like the 'community'... and I like the general look and feel of the entire site.

The challenges are fun for sure... They keep me thinking about ideas that I probably never would have even considered. They keep me looking for unique ways to do things. They keep me looking for a creative edge.

When I prepare for a challenge, I spend a lot of time thinking about what I want to do and shooting photos for it. To me, it's just a little disheartening to spend that amount of effort for a photo contest and then not be allowed to enter the best possible result of my efforts because of some minor editing restriction that is in place.

"The challenges are fun" - which is the whole point. There's no prizes on offer. There's no restriction on skill level or experience before you can enter. Not everybody wants to, or is able to, spend hours editing their image to perfection.
So you can't enter the best possible results here. There are other places where you can, and hey, you could always do it for personal satisfaction.
 06/05/2003 08:20:20 AM · #83
Didn't we recently have another poll on editing? Anyone know how to get to the results page? I seem to remember the vast majority were in favour if it was an extra challenge.

... or did I dream it? ; )
 06/05/2003 08:22:47 AM · #84
Originally posted by Konador:


But how many people don't read the rules but tick the box anyway? :)


True. There is of course one other possibility. For the most part, you always see the same people arguing the same points in rehashes of old fights. I'm sure there are a lot of people who vote, but never post in the forums. Who knows how these silent voices will vote? It might be interesting to give the poll a try, even if it is to confirm the general concensus in the forums.
06/05/2003 08:23:00 AM · #85
Why have it as an extra challenge instead of replacing an existing challenge with it?
06/05/2003 08:24:43 AM · #86
I was working on a reply to post on here but then I realised i would just be echoing the senitments of many who have posted already. The problem seems to be that minor spot editing is a good thing (for my sunset shot here I took out a load of pebbles that i felt intuded in the picture and spoiled it somewhat, is it obvious it was edited?), but we cannot really draw a line and what is and what isnt considered minor, in which case we'd need to open it up to any spot editing... the good thing i can see about this is that to do major spot editing it then can become obvious work has been done and thus puts people off doing it... erm so i guess what I'm getting at is that things are nice the way they are, but minor changes could be a good thing, perhaps even a trial run could be done? Say 2 weeks of challenges where *only* spot editing is allowed as an extra and we see what the response is?

Anyway, I hope I have made some sense here, and I am sorry if I am repeating what someone has already said and I haven't credited you (as i say I havent had time to read all posts)
 06/05/2003 08:29:55 AM · #87
Originally posted by Martus:

The free software available out there cannot compete with photoshop. If it could, it wouldn't be free. I use a software package which cost me $100, and that can't even compete with photoshop when doing the DPC legal stuff.


I'm sorry - this is just plain wrong. What features are you saying that you are missing from photoshop ?
 06/05/2003 08:30:24 AM · #88
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Why have it as an extra challenge instead of replacing an existing challenge with it?

So that people who have coughed up $$ and don't want to enter an editing challenge don't have to lose out? I dunno.

The last time this discussion came around I came to the conclusion that Mitonski just posted - try it and see what happens. I don't mean just the occassional challenge as that would prove nothing, but a few in a row would give a good idea of the direction the site would end up taking.
 06/05/2003 08:38:14 AM · #89
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by Martus:

The free software available out there cannot compete with photoshop. If it could, it wouldn't be free. I use a software package which cost me $100, and that can't even compete with photoshop when doing the DPC legal stuff.


I'm sorry - this is just plain wrong. What features are you saying that you are missing from photoshop ?


I've been using Ulead PhotoImpact for about five months now. I am relatively well versed in most of its functions by now, but I just can't seem to get the same results as with photoshop. I think it's a little like the difference between using a EOS 10D and my Finepix 3800, basically they do the same things, but in the end you can see why the one costs ten times more than the other
 06/05/2003 08:40:22 AM · #90
I became a member of this site to try and become a better digital photographer. However, I'm not against minor image editting such as cloning out bad pixels. But that's about as far as it goes for me. And if it gets approved (sounds very Raelean doesn't it?) I think there should be a cap on the number of pixels. Also, I think you should have to disclose your use of cloning. And the uneditted image should have to be submitted for scrutiny.
 06/05/2003 08:43:46 AM · #91
Originally posted by Martus:
I know it was done before, and has been discussed somewhere before too, but since these threads seem to pop up from time to time and never lead to anything, why not have a new opinion poll where everybody can cast their vote on the issue.
If memory serves me right, the last poll held on this matter, decided with no small margin, in favour of not changing the rules. Why not re-do the poll now that everybody has both had time to think about it, and have heard both sides of the argument.
I say strike now while the iron is hot. We've all heard the arguments, let's do what we do best. Let's vote!


If we all vote to change the rules then I would accept that, but I would not accept the changes very well because just a few people want the changes made.

James
 06/05/2003 08:43:56 AM · #92
Originally posted by bod:

"The challenges are fun" - which is the whole point. There's no prizes on offer. There's no restriction on skill level or experience before you can enter. Not everybody wants to, or is able to, spend hours editing their image to perfection.


So I think what we've been hearing are some people who feel there is a restriction on skill level which is begining to detract from their enjoyment. Some people do seem to want to, and are able to spend hours editing their image to perfection.

I'm speaking up for these changes because I'm increasingly losing interest in submitting half finished pictures to dpc. I certainly don't think it should all change just to keep me happy. I really like the community aspect and learning opportunities at dpc. I haven't found that in any of the other places and I really doubt that the current rules we have are the reason for that. But it is just getting more and more frustrating as my knowledge on how to really finish a picture improves.
 06/05/2003 08:45:32 AM · #93
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Why have it as an extra challenge instead of replacing an existing challenge with it?


Because there are those who don't want the change or who simply don't have the time to sit and play all day in Photoshop or PSP to do all the little things to "tweak" a photo. If you are going to change it to allow spot editing then I would want to also be able to use masking techniques and the point is it suddenly becomes can you vote on an image in a challenge that looks like this?

//www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=23959

If you said you can, then answer this...is the actual photo in focus? was there a good dof used in the photo, is there a texture to it? The more editing that is used the more problems that will develop. Once spot editing is allowed I will start my own crying for masking such as in the above photo to be premitted and before you know it, it will no longer be a photo competition but an art competition.

But I don't see anything wrong with having it as an extra challenge occassionally. I like the idea of an occassional challenge allowing all types of editing but I don't like the idea of it for every challenge cause you suddenly will start seeing more graphics and less photos.
06/05/2003 08:47:44 AM · #94
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Why have it as an extra challenge instead of replacing an existing challenge with it?


Because there are those who don't want the change or who simply don't have the time to sit and play all day in Photoshop or PSP to do all the little things to "tweak" a photo. If you are going to change it to allow spot editing then I would want to also be able to use masking techniques and the point is it suddenly becomes can you vote on an image in a challenge that looks like this?

//www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=23959

If you said you can, then answer this...is the actual photo in focus? was there a good dof used in the photo, is there a texture to it? The more editing that is used the more problems that will develop. Once spot editing is allowed I will start my own crying for masking such as in the above photo to be premitted and before you know it, it will no longer be a photo competition but an art competition.

But I don't see anything wrong with having it as an extra challenge occassionally. I like the idea of an occassional challenge allowing all types of editing but I don't like the idea of it for every challenge cause you suddenly will start seeing more graphics and less photos.


So your example goes against two out of the 3 proposed rule changes. I don't quite understand the point.

Edit: I'm sorry - I just reviewed John's proposed changes. Your example breaks all 3 pretty directly.

Message edited by author 2003-06-05 08:48:29.
 06/05/2003 08:49:52 AM · #95
Originally posted by timj351:
I just thought I would show These photos as another example of what I would like to be able to do. This is a little more extreme than I normally do on my own but I think it still illustrates our point. I wanted to take this particular view of this ship because of the foreground and background elements as well as the better lighting. As I viewed it today I thought that it could have made an interesting entry into the Primary Colors challenge, well, except for that nasty shadow, which may have been enough to prevent me from submitting it. What do you think? The shadow definitely is not a main element and it is distracting.

T


This is an excellent example and illustrates the intention perfectly. These edits did not create digital art, only enhanced the photo and kept it a photograph.

Nice job, btw, Tim!
 06/05/2003 08:55:09 AM · #96
Originally posted by KarenB:

This is an excellent example and illustrates the intention perfectly. These edits did not create digital art, only enhanced the photo and kept it a photograph.

Nice job, btw, Tim!


I don't think anybody has a problem with the intention behind changing the rules, but like they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
 06/05/2003 08:55:39 AM · #97
Originally posted by Gordon:
So I think what we've been hearing are some people who feel there is a restriction on skill level which is begining to detract from their enjoyment. Some people do seem to want to, and are able to spend hours editing their image to perfection.

I'm speaking up for these changes because I'm increasingly losing interest in submitting half finished pictures to dpc. I certainly don't think it should all change just to keep me happy. I really like the community aspect and learning opportunities at dpc. I haven't found that in any of the other places and I really doubt that the current rules we have are the reason for that. But it is just getting more and more frustrating as my knowledge on how to really finish a picture improves.

I hear where you're coming from, and one day in the distant future I may reach that stage too and you'll see me screaming for rule changes : )
After reading these threads I'm leaning increasingly towards allowing editing on members challenges. I certainly think trying it for a month would be a good idea.

Going back to the poll thing - I've had another thought as to why the majority voted for allowing editing if it was an extra challenge ... because the option was there. Simple as that. It would take a simple yes/no poll to get a true view on opinions.
 06/05/2003 08:58:18 AM · #98
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Why have it as an extra challenge instead of replacing an existing challenge with it?


a seperate challenge would be better...why, if you replace one of the challenges with one that allows MORE edits, its like asking people to show up to a gun fight with a pocket knife....and many would get discouraged because their editing skill are not as good as the next persons. Sure that would encourage people to start perfecting their editing skills, but there would only be a few who would rank in the top 10 each week. Then when some one gets better than those select few, I see the select few wanting another change in the rules.

JMSETZLER, I think your images are great, dont get me wrong, but when I signed up for this site I liked it because of the limitations on editing. Im on the Digital Photo contest site also and have not had much luck over there, sure I have had a daily win and several images ranked, but that site is more about editing and the BEST possible final image.

I say we have a vote/pool to see how a change in the rules would turn out.

James
 06/05/2003 09:19:42 AM · #99
While in the shower I thought of another way to try to express it.

I started this whole picture taking thing 18 months ago and didn't know squat. I learned a great deal here talking to people who were taking much better pictures, learning camera control from them and improving my general ability to get a good input to the digital darkroom.

I'd love to be able to continue that learning experience by seeing what the best people can do taking the best possible picture they can and then improving it using the best of their abilities.

Sure, further editing will be used as a crutch for bad photography. No doubt about it. And the results will suck (if anyone wants to show me an example of a terrible photo turned into an amazing one, in the spirit of John's original 3 rule proposals, I'd be happy to change my mind on this point)

People already prop up poor photography using the current editing. The most obvious example is the use of the levels command to compensate for incorrect exposures, or in an attempt to turn a grey background into a white one. This always looks crap. If you can't see the difference, I'd suggest experimenting with getting the correct exposure, vs. editing to get the correct exposure.

With more editing freedom (again, along the lines John proposed - not composites, etc) we will see the best photographers winning, with the best images. Other than fear, I don't really understand what the objection is to the best images winning. I hear people saying it will discourage people who aren't good at editing. Does good photography discourage them currently ? Or does it force them to learn/ get better if they want to succeed ? If you don't care to get better, or care about winning, why would these changes upset you ? If you do care to get better, why do you want to artificially curtail the finishing of your images to an arbitary subset ?
 06/05/2003 09:40:35 AM · #100
That was well put Gordon, but it still doesn't answer any of the concerns that the no-editing camp has. Basically, what you are saying is, yes, there are problems with alowing spot editing, but I want it anyway.

P.S. I've seen some if the things you've done with photoshop, I don't think there's much anybody here can teach you. If you have any suggestions on why I haven't been able to get the same results with my software as with photoshop, and how to correct this, I'd love to hear them. :)
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