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06/04/2003 11:53:10 PM · #151 |
Originally posted by paganini:
This has got to be the biggest rant ever. It seems that every 1 month we have to get into this spot editing discussion :) And it's usually someone who claims that his digital camera doesn't do any spot editing, so you shouldn't do it too :)
The fact is, ALL digital cameras do spot editing. If they don't, then they get really bad sharpening halos. For example: i coudln't use Fred Miranda's Custom Sharpen Pro action beacuse it is spot editing (it sharpens by using spot editing). However, i can take a photo and set sharpening high and get similar results, even though the camera does exactly the same thing (but it's just not tunable like a photoshop action).
But do i care about rules on DPC? :) nope.. the rules has never affected my prints anyway. Besides, I usually don't remove unwanted elements -- i'd consider that a failure on hte photographer part, but that's just me :) I do dodge and burn with masks, etc. (especially a digital graduated neutral density filter, acutally that's what i mostly do) for my own stuff. This for example, Leaves at Sol Duc Falls has been burned on the edges (via a radial mask and "multiply" in photoshop). |
1) this is not a rant. it is a discussion of possible change and learning opportunities.
2) I don't consider everything avoidable. I agree that there are angles and such one can try to use to avoid things like trash cans and what not. In fact, if you read my earlier post, you'll see that even I said having to go back to redo a shot made me a better photographer. It is just that sometimes you can enhance the quality that is already there with more leniency to the editing rules.
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06/04/2003 11:57:11 PM · #152 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by karmat:
(Disclaimor -- I have absolutely no idea what GeneralE is talking about, do you???) |
I'm sorry, I'm trying to have some fun with something I'm supposed to be better at than photography.
Trade dress is a "look and feel" issue, where a claim is made for a trademark on not only the specific image or logo, but for an overall design line. For example, I don't think Del Monte would let another cannery come out with bright green labels, with a picture of the food, and the name in big red letters. It was the crux if the issue over which Apple sued (and lost to) Microsoft over their copying the GUI (which I think Apple got from Xerox) for Windows.
It's also what you get at the Goodwill store .... |
Ohhhhhh. Yea, i knew you were just "funnin." Thanks for explaining that, though.
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06/05/2003 12:03:55 AM · #153 |
it is EXACTLY a rant when the same topic has occured on a regular basis, and without resolution :)
Spot editing is apersonal choice -- i.e. what some photogs might consider as ethical, some might not. I'd consider removing or adding elements as unethical but increasing or decreasing contrast via dodging/burning as "normal". either case, there isn't going to be any resolution to this topic, it just reappears every 1 month or so.
Your #2 -- you can do what you want to do with your prints, why should you be limited by DPC rules? :) do you make every photograph DPC compliant?? Only if you submit, right? And is that ALL you're doing, is photographing for DPC? If so, i'd seriously suggest that you do more shooting elsewhere, in particular, for yourself.
Originally posted by KarenB:
Originally posted by paganini:
This has got to be the biggest rant ever. It seems that every 1 month we have to get into this spot editing discussion :) And it's usually someone who claims that his digital camera doesn't do any spot editing, so you shouldn't do it too :)
The fact is, ALL digital cameras do spot editing. If they don't, then they get really bad sharpening halos. For example: i coudln't use Fred Miranda's Custom Sharpen Pro action beacuse it is spot editing (it sharpens by using spot editing). However, i can take a photo and set sharpening high and get similar results, even though the camera does exactly the same thing (but it's just not tunable like a photoshop action).
But do i care about rules on DPC? :) nope.. the rules has never affected my prints anyway. Besides, I usually don't remove unwanted elements -- i'd consider that a failure on hte photographer part, but that's just me :) I do dodge and burn with masks, etc. (especially a digital graduated neutral density filter, acutally that's what i mostly do) for my own stuff. This for example, Leaves at Sol Duc Falls has been burned on the edges (via a radial mask and "multiply" in photoshop). |
1) this is not a rant. it is a discussion of possible change and learning opportunities.
2) I don't consider everything avoidable. I agree that there are angles and such one can try to use to avoid things like trash cans and what not. In fact, if you read my earlier post, you'll see that even I said having to go back to redo a shot made me a better photographer. It is just that sometimes you can enhance the quality that is already there with more leniency to the editing rules. |
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06/05/2003 12:13:11 AM · #154 |
Originally posted by paganini:
it is EXACTLY a rant when the same topic has occured on a regular basis, and without resolution :)
Spot editing is apersonal choice -- i.e. what some photogs might consider as ethical, some might not. I'd consider removing or adding elements as unethical but increasing or decreasing contrast via dodging/burning as "normal". either case, there isn't going to be any resolution to this topic, it just reappears every 1 month or so.
Your #2 -- you can do what you want to do with your prints, why should you be limited by DPC rules? :) do you make every photograph DPC compliant?? Only if you submit, right? And is that ALL you're doing, is photographing for DPC? If so, i'd seriously suggest that you do more shooting elsewhere, in particular, for yourself.
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I do shoot photographs otherwise, and have been for years. I do use other editing tools. The point was that there are edits that famous and professional photographers use regularly and yet they are not unethical.
Again, this is not a rant. It is an exploratory discussion. Also, it is not about me personally, but about an idea on the whole. I don't understand how your answer to my #2 was applicable to my original statement.
Anyway..it doesn't sound to me like you have read this entire thread. Maybe a further review is needed so that you see it is not a rant, and to put in an opinion based with examples either for or against the issue.
Thanks :)
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06/05/2003 12:22:26 AM · #155 |
why can't i follow this thread past 150 posts?????why can't I see anymore of them?
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06/05/2003 12:24:11 AM · #156 |
| I don't know. It has been saying "page 6" for more than 3 posts now, and your post is the first one to be on page 6... |
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06/05/2003 12:37:27 AM · #157 |
| Testing this page numbering thingy. |
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06/05/2003 12:41:15 AM · #158 |
Originally posted by hbunch7187:
Testing this page numbering thingy. |
LOL Heather I got a 153 of 157 messages with messages 151 to 153 out there floating in cyberspace somewhere |
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06/05/2003 03:12:54 AM · #159 |
Originally posted by mcmurma:
I am still looking for the software that will allow me to plot these problem pixels, and then "map them out" without affecting the rest of the image. Like NeatImage for hot\dead pixels... Does anyone know of such a product? |
There was someone who said they found a dealer or service place that had some kind of software or "adjustment program" that mapped out the hot pixels for their A60. They posted a thread about it at the [url=//forums.powershot-a.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3943&highlight=firmware ]Powershot-A Users Group[/url] site. Don't know if this will help you, but maybe you can contact that person directly and get some more info.
HTH |
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06/05/2003 03:21:51 AM · #160 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by timj351:
I understand what you are saying about only working in a particular color channel but that wouldn't help that much because I need to see the results relative to all the other channels. I've explored this pretty extensively and could not find a way to simple desaturate red, for example, with the spounge tool while you are still working on the full color image. My workaround is to create actions for desaturating the seaprate channels and then I use the lasso tool to select a small area and then hit the appropriate action to desaturate whatever color I want. It does the job but it is a little clunky.
T |
I just tried, you can do this in the version of photoshop I have.
Select the (de)saturation tool. Go to the channel palette. Click for example, the red channel (where it says 'red') The image will turn monochrome. Only the red channel is highlighted. The small eye beside the channels only appears beside the red channel. Now click where the 'eye' would be, beside the RGB channel. All of the eyes will re-appear. The image will return to full colour. Only the red channel will be highlighted in the text list. Your edits now only change the red channel, but you can see all of the others.
Hope that helps. You might need to play with it a bit, because you probably really want to work in the blue and green channels simultaneously and so on - you can do this by shift-clicking to work on two channels at once, much in the same way you can work on multiple layers, while viewing others. |
Gordon, I appreciate your help but that method does not produce the results that I am after. I think because the individual channels are actually displayed in grayscale values. I'm using PS7 and I am quite certain that I did what you said. Compare your method to my other method of selecting an area with the lasso tool and then go to Hue/Saturation to desaturate the same color. You should see what I mean unless I missed something.
T
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06/05/2003 09:42:12 AM · #161 |
You don't take your fun seriously? I always have fun with my photography even when I am seriously exploring better ways to improve my photos. It is primarily just a hobby for me and if it wasn't any fun I certainly wouldn't be putting so much time and effort into it. The very fact that we are exploring this issue of editing does not, in and of itself, imply that we have lost site of the 'fun' aspect. Many of us just enjoy debating different issues in hopes of learning more or finding ways to improve an already fantastic site.
I understand what you are saying, but if that was the case then there should not be so much whining. I have to agree with the idea ONESWEETSIN came up with about the different levels of challenges to help keep the people that are really good seperate fromt he beginners. This way beginners could look at what they need to strvie to, but yet still be in a class they can compete with. That's why the rules are in place currently, to keep everyone at an even playing field. Otherwise, you are forced to seperate the classes in order to make it fair. |
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06/05/2003 09:47:33 AM · #162 |
We already have two classes, Members and Registered Users. I don't think there is any reason for that to change. Adding more classes will just be adding to the confusion. Besides who gets to decide which class you fall in?
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06/05/2003 09:53:28 AM · #163 |
it would be pretty to easy to come up with a system based on scoring over time to classify you.
alternately, it could be self-identified, and once you id yourself with a more advanced skill level, you cant go back.
Originally posted by Martus:
We already have two classes, Members and Registered Users. I don't think there is any reason for that to change. Adding more classes will just be adding to the confusion. Besides who gets to decide which class you fall in? |
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06/05/2003 09:55:01 AM · #164 |
Originally posted by Martus:
We already have two classes, Members and Registered Users. I don't think there is any reason for that to change. Adding more classes will just be adding to the confusion. Besides who gets to decide which class you fall in? |
\
It would be decided on how your previous scores...and you would advance to the next level and start all over again.
As for two classes that isn't really what that is that just states registered users can't compete in member challenges but members can compete in both. Meaning if you pay to be a member you get the extra challenge every week.
Again those of you who are experts at manipulating images in PS don't understand not everyone knows how to do these things and not everyone can learn from tutorials many just need hours and hours of time to play with these programs to learn themselves how to do certain things and it isn't acheived overnight, so by breaking things into beginner, novice and advance you aren't punishing those who don't know how to use the program effectively yet. |
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06/05/2003 09:59:55 AM · #165 |
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
it would be pretty to easy to come up with a system based on scoring over time to classify you.
alternately, it could be self-identified, and once you id yourself with a more advanced skill level, you cant go back.
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So no more members only challenges then? How would you then diferentiate between members and registered users (except for the obvious things like member's portfolios).
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06/05/2003 10:04:49 AM · #166 |
Originally posted by Martus:
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
it would be pretty to easy to come up with a system based on scoring over time to classify you.
alternately, it could be self-identified, and once you id yourself with a more advanced skill level, you cant go back.
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So no more members only challenges then? How would you then diferentiate between members and registered users (except for the obvious things like member's portfolios). |
You would still have your members only challenge just that within the voting there would be two or three first places winners...One from each level of expertise. |
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06/05/2003 10:07:45 AM · #167 |
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
You would still have your members only challenge just that within the voting there would be two or three first places winners...One from each level of expertise. |
But dont you think it would be a bit unfair that a beginner might win a blue ribbon, even though there was a 4th place photo in the advanced category with no ribbon, even though it was a far superior image?
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06/05/2003 10:10:14 AM · #168 |
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
Again those of you who are experts at manipulating images in PS don't understand not everyone knows how to do these things and not everyone can learn from tutorials many just need hours and hours of time to play with these programs to learn themselves how to do certain things and it isn't acheived overnight, so by breaking things into beginner, novice and advance you aren't punishing those who don't know how to use the program effectively yet. |
No, I think I understand perfectly how much effort it requires to learn how to get good at these things. Probably a similar amount of effort as it takes to get good at the rest of photography. I spent several years at University learning about image manipulation so I've a good idea on the level of effort it requires to get good at it. This is also maybe why I'm not so scared of all the 'fantastically good' digital art that will win all the time. Its usually easier to do it right with a camera in the first place and the majority of digital work I've seen is really obvious. I'd like to learn to do it more effectively to enhance my final photographs.
Message edited by author 2003-06-05 10:12:49. |
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06/05/2003 10:20:26 AM · #169 |
Originally posted by Konador:
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
You would still have your members only challenge just that within the voting there would be two or three first places winners...One from each level of expertise. |
But dont you think it would be a bit unfair that a beginner might win a blue ribbon, even though there was a 4th place photo in the advanced category with no ribbon, even though it was a far superior image? |
No it woudldn't be unfair in the least cause you would have seperate sections for each level so it would point out to those who are in the beginner level that they are improving and would make a lot of people feel good to be able to obtain a ribbon and advance to the next level as their skills improves.
It might even be able to be set up so that someone in the beginner level doesn't end up with the unconstructive comments like I have seen in the past, those voting would realize that it is someone in the beginner level and not be as critical to them as they were to someone with talent and ability. |
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06/05/2003 10:24:42 AM · #170 |
| So no nasty comments or thoughtful criticism and ribbons for everyone then ? Sounds fantastic - no need to get better or try to improve. Everyone's a winner! Lets do this. We can tell everyone how great they are doing even when the pictures are terrible and have a big group hug each week ? |
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06/05/2003 10:29:41 AM · #171 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
So no nasty comments or thoughtful criticism and ribbons for everyone then ? Sounds fantastic - no need to get better or try to improve. Everyone's a winner! Lets do this. We can tell everyone how great they are doing even when the pictures are terrible and have a big group hug each week ? |
That's what I've been trying to say. Change is bad! Let's stop this madness now.
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06/05/2003 10:30:06 AM · #172 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
So no nasty comments or thoughtful criticism and ribbons for everyone then ? Sounds fantastic - no need to get better or try to improve. Everyone's a winner! Lets do this. We can tell everyone how great they are doing even when the pictures are terrible and have a big group hug each week ? |
You don't get it do you...Do you realize how many people are scared off after their first attempt and all they see are comments like this sucks and its out of focus...do those help a beginner...NOPE not in the least...a comment like its out of focus needs to be followed up to a beginner by telling them try using an unsharpening mask...hey I didn't even know what it was till someone was nice enough to tell me it exsisted. So by knowing who is beginning and who has acheived a level of expertise would allow to help those who really need help... |
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06/05/2003 10:40:12 AM · #173 |
That's just the way things are OSS. If you show your stuff to an audience, you can't expect them all to be nice about it. Don't know about others but i don't participate here to teach others, nor primarily to teach myself.
Perhaps we should be able to add a marker to a submitted image saying 'don't be nasty about my pic, I'm just starting out?'
If people can't cope with the disappointments, I'm rather afraid my answer would have to be 'tough'. It ain't the end of the world.
Ed
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06/05/2003 10:46:13 AM · #174 |
Originally posted by e301:
Perhaps we should be able to add a marker to a submitted image saying 'don't be nasty about my pic, I'm just starting out?'
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More like something that says I'm in trainning...heck businesses do it all the time! There is nothing wrong with letting everyone know if someone is new or is still learning...whats wrong is degrading that person when they put forth their very best and are put down for trying. |
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06/05/2003 10:51:35 AM · #175 |
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
You don't get it do you...Do you realize how many people are scared off after their first attempt and all they see are comments like this sucks and its out of focus...do those help a beginner...NOPE not in the least...a comment like its out of focus needs to be followed up to a beginner by telling them try using an unsharpening mask...hey I didn't even know what it was till someone was nice enough to tell me it exsisted. So by knowing who is beginning and who has acheived a level of expertise would allow to help those who really need help... |
I do get it, I just don't quite get the point of rewarding mediocrity on a site that is supposed to be a contest.
If someone tells them 'this sucks and its out of focus' I'd hope they'd spend the time to learn or ask how to take a picture that is in focus. If someone saying 'this is out of focus' is enough that they abandon the whole idea of taking pictures, perhaps they aren't cut out for it ?
Sharpening isn't going to help poor camera skills. Using unsharp masks doesn't really address focusing correctly in the first place. But if you get a comment that says 'this is out of focus' what more do you need to know ? You know you need to learn how to take a picture in focus. The forums are full of helpful people that have answered these sorts of questions over and over and will no doubt continue to do so.
Does every comment have to hand hold everyone through each learning step ? No point in a comment that just indicates the obvious flaw and leaves you to learn or find the answer for yourself ? If that were the case people should be writing entire intro to photography comments on every picture that has a basic error. Maybe everyone should get a ribbon for every entry - that would level the playing field wouldn't it ? |
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