Suggested Editing Rules Part 2 - DPChallenge Forums

06/04/2003 07:54:49 PM · #1

I went through the entire other thread and extracted these reasons that people are against relaxed editing rules... If I missed any, please let me know and let's discuss these now that we have a list....

1. Rules are vague and subjective

2. Afraid it turns into composite images (even though this was against the rule proposal)

3. It would keep people from learning to use their cameras to the fullest extent

4. Too much editing takes away from the photo

5. Donâ��t want it to become a digital art/manipulation contest

6. Not everyone can afford photoshop

7. Beginners would not get a good learning experience

8. Donâ��t wanna spend time to learn the techniques

06/04/2003 08:01:41 PM · #2

My thoughts on each of these issues:

1 - Rules are vague and subjective

Our current rules are vague and subjective also. I believe that if we explicitly define everything that can and can't be done, we will never have a set of rules. Simple terminology difference between people and software would make this impossible...

2 - Afraid it turns into composite images

This was addressed in the original three rules that I proposed.

3 - It would keep people from learning to use their cameras to the fullest extent.

I agree and disagree. It would only keep those who arent' interested in learning photography from learning photography. I don't think that those who are excellent photographers and excellent digital manipulators should be held back to the lowest common denominator.

4 - Too much editing takes away from the photo.

I simply don't understand this one at all. I think that too much BAD editing takes away from a photo for sure.

5 - Don't want it to become a digital art/manipulation contest.

Me either... I definitely don't want to be able to NOTICE any editing in the image. I think that makes it no longer a valid photograph.

6 - Not everyone can afford photoshop.

There are free programs available that do the same things.

7 - Beginners would not get a good learning experience.

Hogwash... they would learn even more as long as they WANT to learn. They will learn to make good photographs and finish them to the best final product possible simply by watching and learning while participating at the same time.

8 - Don't wanna spend time to learn the techniques.

This will always be the case... see above comment about holding back to match the lowest common denominator....

Jak

Fujifilm FinePix S602Z

06/04/2003 08:07:42 PM · #3

I'm kind of upset that the previous thread was arbitrarily locked when I was in the middle of a conversation. I don't think Council Members should be able to do that at a whim; it shows no respect for the basic grunt users here. (Especially when Council members can continue to debate in that topic)

As I was saying in the other thread ... Or, rather, as John was saying:

"I think i must be the only person that doesn't care how a great photo is achieved. I don't care what the negative looks like.. i just wanna see the print :)"

To which I would respond: then why do your How Did They Do That tutorials, John, which are clearly popular? Something doesn't fit.

Message edited by author 2003-06-04 20:10:06.

qachyk

Kodak CX4200

06/04/2003 08:13:04 PM · #4

John, could you maybe post a set of comparison shots, "Original Image" vs "Current Rules" vs "Proposed Changes" so I have a clear visual on what you're trying to introduce with these rules? I gave up on the morass in the other thread so I'm still not sure I understand to what extent you want to allow editing.

I do have a line at which I think it stops being photography and starts being digital art, but I don't think you're necessarily proposing changes that would cross it; I just would like to be clear.

(I think, for instance, entirely editing out small detritus in the composition is iffy at best, though obviously it's difficult enough to do that without it showing that it would also be rare; editing out a large object would cross my line. OTOH, minor spot editing to clean up hot pixels or a little 3x3 pixel imperfection wouldn't bother me.)

06/04/2003 08:14:37 PM · #5

Originally posted by Jak:

How to tutorials that i have done deal with technique.

06/04/2003 08:18:32 PM · #6

Originally posted by qachyk:

My definition of digital art is an image that can't be done with a camera... something that is obviously edited...

Lots of participants in the thread tend to ignore my definition of that or they didn't read my intent...

To me, a photograph looks like a photograph. You can't tell that any editing has been done, and I think this is what i like to call 'pure photography'. "Pure" doesn't mean that it's unedited to me.

timj351

Sony DSC-F707

06/04/2003 08:21:19 PM · #7

There are always going to be people that either blatantly try to break the rules or simply try to see how far they can go before they are stopped. That's a given, but I don't see it as a good enough reason to not allow for something, in this case more liberal editing, that most people would use in the spirit to which it is intended.

For beginning photographers that may be a little intimidated by many of the tools and techniques maybe we could find more ways to help them along. Some examples might be 'Tips of the Day' or a clearer way to the help sections and tutorials. There is now a lot going on visually on this site and it might be easy for newcomers to miss where the tutorials are. We can make this site very user friendly for any skill level if we want rather than finding ways to overcomplicate it or why something wont work.

T

Message edited by author 2003-06-04 20:23:44.

jab119

06/04/2003 08:23:16 PM · #8

I mentioned this in the other thread but evidently it was over looked

Unless you want to spin off another open challenge just for those who need to manipulate their images WAY WAY beyond the capabilities of any camera. Now that I could go for

have a:

Members Challenge
Open Challenge
Open Challenge - ALL Edits allowed

James

06/04/2003 08:23:52 PM · #9

I unlocked the other thread so it can be continued if seen fit...

06/04/2003 08:25:02 PM · #10

Let's try to keep this thread on track and discuss the individual oppositions to the relaxed editing rules...

qachyk

Kodak CX4200

06/04/2003 08:29:09 PM · #11

There's a phrase in writing critiques: Show, don't tell. That's all I'm asking for here. Someone. Anyone. Restating again what you're talking about doesn't help, because it HASN'T YET. I'm asking for visual clarification on what type of thing you're talking about.

OneSweetSin

Nikon D3000

06/04/2003 08:30:32 PM · #12

[quote=jmsetzler]
6. Not everyone can afford photoshop

7. Beginners would not get a good learning experience

I'd have to have to agreee with these reasons for not changing the rules to some extent...

I have a trial version of photoshop and after using PSP for so long I find photoshop extermely slow and won't spend the money for it...PSP does almost the same things, however tutorials created here on how to do things with Photoshop are worthless to me.

As for a good learning experience....I will say what I said in the previous thread...break the challenge into groups so that the editing doesn't scare away those who don't know how to do it...have a beginners, novice and advanced grouping in the challenges with editing staying as it is for beginners, maybe a little more editing for novice and skys the limit for the advanced group.

Alecia

Canon EOS-10D

06/04/2003 08:40:37 PM · #13

moved home to the other page! :)

Message edited by author 2003-06-04 20:42:47.

06/04/2003 08:42:22 PM · #14

Originally posted by OneSweetSin:

I don't think it would be such a good idea to break the challenges into groups according to expertise in using software. For one, it would seem to indicate that those with greater editing skills (or those that think they have greater editing skills) are more "advanced", which I don't think is true. I don't think that those who don't know how to do it would be scared away. Just like now, we learn, we grow, and that would continue better if the group were one, not divided.

I think some revision to the current rules is warranted though, especially as it applies to techniques that mimic actual photographic techniques.

06/04/2003 08:45:14 PM · #15

I think a simple single rule that says:

1. your photograph should contain no visible edits

would do the trick :)

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

06/04/2003 08:47:08 PM · #16

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

I think a simple single rule that says:

1. your photograph should contain no visible edits

would do the trick :)

Hehe, I like that. Simple rule. All the "invisible" edits you want. Sounds like the definition of a good edit. Cool!

greenem2

Canon EOS-10D

06/04/2003 08:47:41 PM · #17

I suggest we try a few weeks of no rules in the members challenges. All this talk just goes round and round. I think we need to try it out and then see what people think. I believe that the ones who say it will turn into devart will be pleasantly surprised.

casualguy

Canon EOS-20D

06/04/2003 08:49:21 PM · #18

Albeit slightly off subject, I find some of the current 'allowable' editing techniques more of an injustice than allowing spot editing of a hot pixel or overlooked speck.

Taking out all but one color, changing red to green, these and other simlar modifications (in my opinion) make the photo less original than the removal of some overlooked spots or even the taking out of a jet trail from a sunset (as jmsetzler eluded to).

I personally would much rather have some (slight) spot editing allowed rather than the (sometimes radical) hue adjustments, etc.

06/04/2003 08:50:19 PM · #19

Originally posted by qachyk:

DPC Legal Version

Finished Version

OneSweetSin

Nikon D3000

06/04/2003 08:51:15 PM · #20

Originally posted by uabresch:

Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
[quote=jmsetzler]
6. Not everyone can afford photoshop

7. Beginners would not get a good learning experience

I'd have to have to agreee with these reasons for not changing the rules to some extent...

I have a trial version of photoshop and after using PSP for so long I find photoshop extermely slow and won't spend the money for it...PSP does almost the same things, however tutorials created here on how to do things with Photoshop are worthless to me.

As for a good learning experience....I will say what I said in the previous thread...break the challenge into groups so that the editing doesn't scare away those who don't know how to do it...have a beginners, novice and advanced grouping in the challenges with editing staying as it is for beginners, maybe a little more editing for novice and skys the limit for the advanced group.

I don't think it would be such a good idea to break the challenges into groups according to expertise in using software. For one, it would seem to indicate that those with greater editing skills (or those that think they have greater editing skills) are more "advanced", which I don't think is true. I don't think that those who don't know how to do it would be scared away. Just like now, we learn, we grow, and that would continue better if the group were one, not divided.

I think some revision to the current rules is warranted though, especially as it applies to techniques that mimic actual photographic techniques.

You would have to have read the previous thread to see where I said that the break down would be based on your finishing scores. Its done all the time in art competitions where previous finishes decide on what level you compete at... The world has been doing this for a very long time Nascar, baseball, football, basketball, hockey, they all do it daily where the more you know and the better you do the higher the level you compete at is.

I know this isn't a sport but it is a competition...why not invite the beginner by not making it such an overwelming first experience, and at the same time why hold back someone who can do outstanding work by limiting the editing, by breaking into a few groups you allow everyone a chance to win instead of the same ones over and over.

06/04/2003 08:53:10 PM · #21

I learned to play chess by getting beat constantly. I didn't learn by playing with people on my own level.

timj351

Sony DSC-F707

06/04/2003 09:03:42 PM · #22

On one hand people are saying that we need to remember that we should just be having fun and then on the other hand it is suggested that we divide things up into skill levels or more challenges. To me that actually seems to focus even more on the competitive aspect as apposed to just having fun competing with everyone at differing skill levels. If there were any more challenges or categories I would really be discouraged. There seems to be such a tendency to want to make things more complicated instead of simpler.

Editing is part of the process of digital photography and beginners can learn to use the editing technique if we help present them with easy to understand methods.

I think it is intirely possible to write up thorough and easily understood rules regarding additional editing and if people focus on the spirit of the rules there should be no problem.

T

06/04/2003 09:05:48 PM · #23

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

I learned to play chess by getting beat constantly. I didn't learn by playing with people on my own level.

Totally agree. I don't think that dividing into beginners/advanced would be a good learning experience.

lost my account

Nikon D100

06/04/2003 09:09:10 PM · #24

Well what's the bottom line here? Are we purely doing this in hopes to win a ribbon? Or are we looking to better ourselves as photographers (and maybe people as well)? Just because there would be more liberal editing rules doesn't mean one has to use every last one of them everytime or at all. And I don't really think people would. If people on here are actually concerned about learning the craft, they will go at their own pace. They will learn the tools and techniques that fit their style, their approach to photography.