The Death of 35mm? - DPChallenge Forums

05/03/2003 09:01:44 PM · #1

I am begining to wonder if we are seeing the last years of the dominance of 35mm. Film has had many advantages over digital, but those are quickly slipping away.

Kodak recently introduced a new SLR that, according to Popular Photography, matches or exceeds film in resolution, and print quality. There are at least three different cameras currently on the market with full 35mm sized sensors. Replicating the DOF and angel of view a specific lens would give on a film camera (smaller sesonrs effectively increase focal length and DOF). This is great for wide angle, scenic and architecural photgraphers, and portarait photographers that like to isolate the subject with a shallow DOF.

Digital images can be easily manipulated to replicate the affects of a slew of films and filters, including IR, BW, various color palates, and slide film (with a digital projector). Images can be veiwed instanly, printed at home, or uploaded to a service to be printed cheaply.

There are stil some important issues that need to be dealt with.

1) Noise increases drastically with ISO speeds
2) high noise in low light photography ( film will probably keep an advantage here for a while).
3) focus/shutter lag.
4) Techno-phobia. Many camera users are still computer shy, but this will lessen in time, and with more intuitive software.
I think the disadvantages will be concurred in the next few years, as my Contax SLR continues to collect dust.

I believe medium format will remain popular with pros, and digital back will become more common for these cameras, or even standard.

Now, I just can't wait until one of these super cameras can be had for under $2k.

Message edited by author 2003-05-03 21:05:00.

Olympus 50mm f/1.8 MF Normal Zuiko

05/03/2003 09:06:59 PM · #2

bump

emorgan49

Olympus E-5

05/03/2003 09:07:24 PM · #3

A bit off the topic but: It is getting harder to find black and white print paper. Agfa has discontinued some grades. Kodak only sells the F series in 100 boxes - no more 500s - and when that is gone it is gone. I am experimenting with Arista paper now.

Message edited by author 2003-05-03 21:09:30.

matt betea

Nikon D100

05/03/2003 10:05:43 PM · #4

I believe Canon or Nikon have no plans of releasing any new pro SLRs. I know Kodak and Canon have a full-frame sensor DSLR, but who else? The first two "issues" you list are just the nature of the beast. With refined manufacturing and different manufacturing processes these levels will drop. Entirely? Of course not, they'll always have it. But I think Canon with their newer DSLRs and even Nikon with their "old" tech are doing a good job thus far. The DSLRs that are out now have pretty much the same focusing system as their film counterparts.

As far as the full-frame sensors go. Personally I think it's a bit over-hyped. Nikon has announced that they will not go to a full-frame DSLR, one of the signs, their DX line of lenses. I am glad I decided to go with Nikon. Smaller sensor means smaller manufacturing costs which means less cost for us. More money that can be put to other areas. Also means savings on lenses too. Sure it'll be great that I'll have a true wide angle with an 18mm lens on a full-frame camera. But, with a full-frame sensor if I want an AF-S 300mm/2.8 lens, I'm going to have to cough up $4,200+, with a sensor at Nikon's current size a 70-200/2.8VR runs about $1,700. I don't know about anyone else, but I know of a few other things to do with around $2,500. Nikon seems to acknowledge this while giving us a true wide angle lens (in the form of the dx), without changing lens-mounts. Give me a 23.7mmx15.6mm 8-10mp sensor with increased dynamic range, lowered noise levels, 6fps-8fps for 24 frames for $4,500 and you can have my kingdom :)

Message edited by author 2003-05-03 22:08:20.

cpanaioti

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 DO IS USM

05/03/2003 11:29:29 PM · #5

I just read an article in Digital Photographer, a British publication, where Kodak and Olympus are teaming up to create a new digial SLR system called the 4 Thirds system. The name comes from the size of the sensor (18mm x 13.5mm, diagonal of 22.5mm - smaller than the current sensors in the Fuji S2 Pro and Nikon D100).

It would involve a new interchangeable lense system where the lenses will be designed specifically for the new sensor. The sensor frame measurement would be smaller than the 35mm frame size. Since the lenses would be designed for this sensor they would be smaller and lighter than current SLR lenses. For example, the article states that a 600mm lense for this new system would be approximately the size and weight of a 300mm conventional lense.

The new system is being designed as an open system so all manufacturers of digital cameras can use it, unlike the proprietary systems used on conventional SLRs.

According to the article Fuji has agreed to participate in the project but it remains to be seen if Nikon and Canon will buy into this new system.

This article is in issue five of this magazine.

This magazine and the included CD have tutorials for Photoshop 7 that are helpful.

Message edited by author 2003-05-04 00:13:54.

mcmurma

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

Nikon MF 180mm f/2.8 ED AIS

05/04/2003 12:54:58 AM · #6

I read about the 4/3rds system a month or so ago at dpreview, and I think its a GREAT idea.

I have never wanted to jump for a DSLR since I've seen what a compact can do. I think its just plain overkill for average users like me. Besides, I really like the size and weight of the smaller cameras.

With film I would wind up carrying a whole backpack full of stuff. I had zooms, but lots of primes as well. I rarely carried them all, but seems I was always toting at least 4 or 5 lenses. That along with a couple of bodies and filters etc... got pretty darn heavy.

Now I tote around a digital in my front pocket. Sure my lens choices are much more limited... lol, and I really miss a good telephoto, but the size and ease is just awesome. Also, up until last week I had rather poor macro performance (Canon's aren't the best macro cameras). But after purchasing a Canon 250D closeup lens this has done a 180 turn. This lens is nothing short of amazing. I can hardly believe what I have been missing!

I think a 4/3rds sensor in the 6-8 megapixel range would be ideal. And if we were able to cover a focal range of 24-300 with 2 or 3 little lenses, I'd never think about "full size" 35mm stuff again.

Message edited by author 2003-05-04 00:57:20.

matt betea

Nikon D100

05/04/2003 01:35:24 AM · #7

Yeah I've read a little bit about the 4/3 system. Theoretically it sounds nice. Being able to keep any make of 4/3 lens and interchange with bodies from different manufacturers. But the reality I think it won't happen. Olympus and maybe Kodak might adopt it as their own system. I mean Olympus and Kodak, as far as camera manufacturers go, they don't have that much clout.

Nikon, seeing that their sticking with their same mount and developing lenses for their own cameras doesn't give the feeling like they'll be jumping on soon, though they have a reputation I don't know if they would have the backing to be venturing into something like that.

And Canon, well if Olympus and Kodak could get Canon onboard, then it might go somewhere. Canon can probably do anything they want.

a1leyez0nm3

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

05/04/2003 03:55:57 AM · #8

they should realy have a standard lens system. i think they should just make them the same size as 35mm or 4/3. you dont need bigger for a narrow DOF. ive used Canon 50mm F1.0 lens on a D60 and its DOF is really narrow.

magnetic9999

Canon EOS-20D

Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 EX Aspherical DF for Canon

05/04/2003 09:59:43 AM · #9

neither canon nor nikon seem to have any incentive to switch to an open system. their best bets seem to lie with locking people into their proprietary systems where they are pretty much the sole provider.

pitsaman

Canon EOS-30D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

05/04/2003 12:47:14 PM · #10

For the NEW Kodak camera you need to upgrade your PC to handle such large files, lot of RAM and good video card!

mcmurma

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

Nikon MF 180mm f/2.8 ED AIS

05/04/2003 01:02:12 PM · #11

Originally posted by magnetic9999:

I agree. But that's not the whole story. Simply because it's all about business. The initial success of the 4/3rds system will probably depend on consumer acceptance of the format. If one or two companies (doesn't really matter who--Olympus, Kodak or Fuji) can put together a camera worth a hoot at a decent price, make a few lenses that perform well, and have said cam be well recieved by the buyers... then the rush may be on.

Third-party lenses makers would probably be the first to jump on board, developing lenses to cover focal ranges the manufacturers just don't offer. Then, after that, other camera makers would join in depending on the amount of money they feel they could make in that market. And it's a fair bet that if either Nikon or Canon jump in, the other will follow.

Open systems means stiff competition (in theory anyway) and this would be great for us... the consumers. But the big guys probably want to stay out of it until it becomes apparent that they can't afford to.

Will it ever happen? Who knows. Luckily (for those of us that would like to see this work) the whole world likes little things... little things of uncompromised quality. And the 35mm form factor, as standardized as it is, is awfully large in todays electronic world.

05/04/2003 01:13:45 PM · #12

Look for Ilford paper, they make really good stuff. Checkout Adorama they have a good selection too.

Originally posted by emorgan49: