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 06/21/2006 08:37:21 PM · #26
Hi Judi ... very beautiful and very artistic. Impressive!
 06/22/2006 03:03:20 AM · #27
OMG Judi...I actually started crying (I mean ugly crying!) when I watched that slideshow! Very well done!
 06/22/2006 03:06:18 AM · #28
Originally posted by bowronfam3:
OMG Judi...I actually started crying (I mean ugly crying!) when I watched that slideshow! Very well done!


Wow...thankyou so much...that means a lot!
 07/03/2006 08:02:49 PM · #29
Bump.

Come on there are more Wedding Photographers out there with tips for the Wedding Photography wannabes.

Help them out please.
 07/03/2006 08:11:27 PM · #30
It's not necessary.

You see the pretty girl in the white dress - take picture of her. And that guy all dressed up standing next to her - take his picture too.

Follow them around and take lots of pics. Pics of the kissing, dancing, cutting the cake.

See, each wedding is different. The general flow is there sure, but nothing else is the same from one to the next.

Now then, you want what, our 3 or 7 or 20 best shots? best to who? Invariably my favorites are not the favs of the B&G, and vice versa.

I threw out a crappy shot, and the next issue of Rangefinder had an identical shot in it - Why? Cause it won some damn award! Unreal.

There are 3 kinds of images - formal portraits, candids and detail shots. Detail shots are great for use in teh album, but not much else. Formal portraits, are, kind of boring (if done well IMO. Poorly done ones are more interesting to look at) Family members may disagree though. Candids are well, candids. These are probably the more interesting to examine and dicsuss, but so much of them are more luck and timing than talent.
 07/03/2006 08:17:07 PM · #31
Wow, just checked out your slideshow, Judi, and was extremely impressed. I'm supposed to be shooting a wedding later this month, but my situation is rather unusual, I think :) I'll open my own thread about it so not to hijack yours :)
 07/03/2006 08:22:59 PM · #32
Judy, that was just beautiful. Did you take the heart shot from the plane? Just fantastic! Love the whole thing. Wow.
The one shot of the group sitting in front of a tree? The panning caused the women to look as if they were talking. It was strange and caused by the compression, I think. Just wanted you to know if you hadn't noticed it.
 07/03/2006 08:31:58 PM · #33
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
It's not necessary.

You see the pretty girl in the white dress - take picture of her. And that guy all dressed up standing next to her - take his picture too.

Follow them around and take lots of pics. Pics of the kissing, dancing, cutting the cake.

See, each wedding is different. The general flow is there sure, but nothing else is the same from one to the next.

Now then, you want what, our 3 or 7 or 20 best shots? best to who? Invariably my favorites are not the favs of the B&G, and vice versa.

I threw out a crappy shot, and the next issue of Rangefinder had an identical shot in it - Why? Cause it won some damn award! Unreal.

There are 3 kinds of images - formal portraits, candids and detail shots. Detail shots are great for use in teh album, but not much else. Formal portraits, are, kind of boring (if done well IMO. Poorly done ones are more interesting to look at) Family members may disagree though. Candids are well, candids. These are probably the more interesting to examine and dicsuss, but so much of them are more luck and timing than talent.


You say it's not necessary. Okay...I want you to go and look through the forums. That's right! Look how many threads are on weddings....mainly asking for help. There are people out there who don't find it as easy as you and I do. They want help. And they are asking for it. So why not help them.

Yes, every wedding is different...and that is what confuses them.

How do they handle this problem?
Are there some general guidelines to help them through it?
What equipment is best?
How many photos should they take?
Will they look amateur if they did it on their own and asked for the brides ideas?
How long should they shoot?
What type of setups should they do or should they be candids?
How do they handle large groups?
How do they handle lowlight?
How do they handle the Aunt Joans always asking for freebies?
How much should they charge for their first wedding and why?
What should they include in the package?

Okay, the list could go on...but this is why I started this thread. To help them...open up the floodgates for questions and answers...discuss ideas...etc!

We can help them.
 07/03/2006 08:35:52 PM · #34
Originally posted by pcody:
Judy, that was just beautiful. Did you take the heart shot from the plane? Just fantastic! Love the whole thing. Wow.
The one shot of the group sitting in front of a tree? The panning caused the women to look as if they were talking. It was strange and caused by the compression, I think. Just wanted you to know if you hadn't noticed it.


No I hadn't realised that. But I do have to admit on another show on my site there is water trickling over the rocks and with the resolution it looks like it is moving. I think it is just a trick of the eye.

The heart shot was one that my partner and I had been wanting to do for some time. This wedding came along and they wanted it. So the groom organised for a cherry picker/squirrel (whatever you wanted to call it) to take me up. There was two rails around me and enough room for a couple of people...but it was just me and my equipment. I used a tripod and went barefoot. The flooring was just mesh steel. My partner remained on the ground while I called out instructions to get the people into the shape I wanted and to get the wedding party into the poses I wanted. There were two massive lights attached to the basket to help light the area.

Originally posted by acrotide:
Wow, just checked out your slideshow, Judi, and was extremely impressed. I'm supposed to be shooting a wedding later this month, but my situation is rather unusual, I think :) I'll open my own thread about it so not to hijack yours :)


If you want you can discuss it here Bill....this is what this thread is for.
 07/03/2006 09:12:32 PM · #35
Maybe for that one picture, don't pan? I don't know how hard it is for someone to edit slideshows, but...everything else is so perfect and...
The cherry picker sounds like fun! Must have been a blast arranging everything for people that could afford the extras. How many times did you meet with the couple before the wedding?
 07/03/2006 09:22:19 PM · #36
Sorry for this being so long, but Judi said it was ok for me to post here, and there's a cookie waiting for anyone who makes it to the end :)

Ok, here's the situation: My girlfriend's cousin is getting married later this month and I have been 'volunteered' to be the photographer because I have a big fancy camera (hehe). Let me just say that I have never shot a wedding in my life, nor have I shot any events or portraits or anything of that nature. The only reason that I am doing this favor for them is because they truely cannot afford a wedding photographer and I have some confidence that I can do a little better than most of the attendees with their disposable cameras and such.

Now I've told the B&G that I am not a wedding photographer or anywhere near what one would consider a professional and they are completely alright with that...they just want some pictures of their special day. They have a more laid back attitude about this than I do, as I'm rather nervous about shooting their wedding. They may not be expecting much, but I'm not usually one to do things half-assed. Of course, since this is such a laid back affair, I see it as a great opportunity for me to get involved in wedding photography without such high expectations as a paid gig. And yes, the photos will be their wedding gift from us, on the condition enough of them come out good enough :)

Now I'm not really too concerned about what to shoot (I've done a lot of reading here on DPC as well as other sites regarding the typical "wedding specific" shots that almost any wedding photographer would take as well as some more creative type shots. What I'm mostly concerned about is my lack of equipment. I only have a main body (Canon Rebel) with the only backup being my p&s Canon S30. I've got 3 lenses (kit lens, 50 f/1.8 and 75-300 f/4-5.6 USM) and no external flash unit. I figure I'll be using the 50 f/1.8 for pretty much the entire event, but for the indoor shots, I'm worried about the built-in flash washing everything out on closer shots and on any farther shots, not even having an effect at all. I considered renting some gear, but I just don't have the money, and I'm not even sure we have any place around here that rents photography equipment so I'm pretty much stuck with what I've got on hand.

Any suggestions for what I can do considering the limited gear and experience I have to work with? I'd like to know if there's some way to tone down the built-in flash a bit so closer shots won't be so washed out (cover the flash with material or something). Any advice will ease my mind right now, as the event is quickly approaching and I feel like I'm getting in over my head :) *end sermon and receive your free cookie*
 07/03/2006 09:26:00 PM · #37
Judi you do such beautiful work!
 07/03/2006 09:51:46 PM · #38
Bill. A friend was in the exact same position you are in just this last month. What she did was to tell the b/g that she really couldn't shoot without a dedicated flash. They paid for her to purchase one at a local camera shop. It was her payment for the job. She didn't go with the most expensive one offered, either. Just one that allowed her a little more than the on-board flash.
 07/03/2006 09:53:18 PM · #39
Here is a sample of an album I am working on.'

Here
 07/03/2006 10:00:20 PM · #40
Originally posted by pcody:
Bill. A friend was in the exact same position you are in just this last month. What she did was to tell the b/g that she really couldn't shoot without a dedicated flash. They paid for her to purchase one at a local camera shop. It was her payment for the job. She didn't go with the most expensive one offered, either. Just one that allowed her a little more than the on-board flash.

Like I mentioned in my post, any purchases or renting of gear is not an option. Besides, where the wedding is going to be is a lot smaller place than where I live so there's no chance of there being any photo gear rental shops there.
 07/03/2006 10:03:45 PM · #41
acrotide,

Dude I can tell you if you are going to be shooting indoors at the reception you are going to need an external flash. That little thing on the camera is not gonna cut it. You main subject will have some harsh light and the bg is gonna be way dark. The best thing you can do without a flash is to use a tri-pod jump you iso up to about 800 and shoot at 1/30 depending on the lighting. If all else fails convert them to black and white using the channel mixer. If you have any other questions feel free to pm me.

Travis
 07/03/2006 10:07:43 PM · #42
Originally posted by pcody:
Maybe for that one picture, don't pan? I don't know how hard it is for someone to edit slideshows, but...everything else is so perfect and...
The cherry picker sounds like fun! Must have been a blast arranging everything for people that could afford the extras. How many times did you meet with the couple before the wedding?


Yes you are right...I will have to look into that.

I met with the Bride twice before the wedding. While my partner photographed the men before the wedding as I photographed the women...I didn't actually get to meet or speak with the groom until we were at the altar. LOL!!
 07/03/2006 10:12:02 PM · #43
there's always b&h. They carry a wide range of flash. You didn't mention that the b/g couldn't afford to spend a hundred or less on their photographer. You said you couldn't afford anything.
Sorry, you can't get one. Hope you get some other replies.
 07/03/2006 10:12:07 PM · #44
Originally posted by Travis99:
Here is a sample of an album I am working on.'

Here


You have done a beautiful job. Each page is unique and worthy of looking into further. Congratulations.
 07/03/2006 10:14:10 PM · #45
Originally posted by acrotide:
Sorry for this being so long, but Judi said it was ok for me to post here, and there's a cookie waiting for anyone who makes it to the end :)

Ok, here's the situation: My girlfriend's cousin is getting married later this month and I have been 'volunteered' to be the photographer because I have a big fancy camera (hehe). Let me just say that I have never shot a wedding in my life, nor have I shot any events or portraits or anything of that nature. The only reason that I am doing this favor for them is because they truely cannot afford a wedding photographer and I have some confidence that I can do a little better than most of the attendees with their disposable cameras and such.

Now I've told the B&G that I am not a wedding photographer or anywhere near what one would consider a professional and they are completely alright with that...they just want some pictures of their special day. They have a more laid back attitude about this than I do, as I'm rather nervous about shooting their wedding. They may not be expecting much, but I'm not usually one to do things half-assed. Of course, since this is such a laid back affair, I see it as a great opportunity for me to get involved in wedding photography without such high expectations as a paid gig. And yes, the photos will be their wedding gift from us, on the condition enough of them come out good enough :)

Now I'm not really too concerned about what to shoot (I've done a lot of reading here on DPC as well as other sites regarding the typical "wedding specific" shots that almost any wedding photographer would take as well as some more creative type shots. What I'm mostly concerned about is my lack of equipment. I only have a main body (Canon Rebel) with the only backup being my p&s Canon S30. I've got 3 lenses (kit lens, 50 f/1.8 and 75-300 f/4-5.6 USM) and no external flash unit. I figure I'll be using the 50 f/1.8 for pretty much the entire event, but for the indoor shots, I'm worried about the built-in flash washing everything out on closer shots and on any farther shots, not even having an effect at all. I considered renting some gear, but I just don't have the money, and I'm not even sure we have any place around here that rents photography equipment so I'm pretty much stuck with what I've got on hand.

Any suggestions for what I can do considering the limited gear and experience I have to work with? I'd like to know if there's some way to tone down the built-in flash a bit so closer shots won't be so washed out (cover the flash with material or something). Any advice will ease my mind right now, as the event is quickly approaching and I feel like I'm getting in over my head :) *end sermon and receive your free cookie*


I shot my first three weddings with no flash...that's right...no flash. You can see the results, and I had no complaints. It CAN be done effectively. I finally bought one for the 4th wedding (along with a lightsphere) and got some good results. You can see the shots in the links below. It's all in how and where you shoot that will make the difference, giving your limited equipment (not that the 350XT is limited or anything...just using your words). Be as creative as you can, get interesting angles and candid moments using the best available light you can use, and keep your camera settings in mind the whole time (ISO and shutter speed for sure). You can't use the flash during the actual ceremony anyway, so wing it. Use windows and stained glass to your advantage. Have fun and relax. Use the 50mm for sure, the kit lens if the light is really good for a few wider shots.

Wedding 1 (no flash)
Wedding 2 (no flash)
Wedding 3 (no flash)
Wedding 4 (flash)

Now...where's that cookie? Do you have chocolate chip? :)
 07/03/2006 10:47:05 PM · #46
Originally posted by laurielblack:
I shot my first three weddings with no flash...that's right...no flash. You can see the results, and I had no complaints. It CAN be done effectively. I finally bought one for the 4th wedding (along with a lightsphere) and got some good results. You can see the shots in the links below. It's all in how and where you shoot that will make the difference, giving your limited equipment (not that the 350XT is limited or anything...just using your words). Be as creative as you can, get interesting angles and candid moments using the best available light you can use, and keep your camera settings in mind the whole time (ISO and shutter speed for sure). You can't use the flash during the actual ceremony anyway, so wing it. Use windows and stained glass to your advantage. Have fun and relax. Use the 50mm for sure, the kit lens if the light is really good for a few wider shots.

Wedding 1 (no flash)
Wedding 2 (no flash)
Wedding 3 (no flash)
Wedding 4 (flash)

Now...where's that cookie? Do you have chocolate chip? :)

This is the kind of stuff that I want to hear about. I checked out your shots and really like how the first two weddings in particular came out. The first was outdoors, so I guess that was a bonus. The second one had some large windows in the church right where the ceremony was taking place so there was plenty of ambient light. Most of the churches that I've been to around here don't have much in the way of ambient light so it's usually pretty dark, which will make my job that much tougher. What camera did you use for the first 3 weddings? Also, when you say 'no flash', do you mean no external flash, or not even the built-in flash?

Thanks for sharing your experience and your photos with me for some much needed inspiration, Laurie :) And I can get you chocolate chip if you like, even if I have to bake it myself :)
 07/04/2006 12:11:38 AM · #47
Originally posted by acrotide:

This is the kind of stuff that I want to hear about. I checked out your shots and really like how the first two weddings in particular came out. The first was outdoors, so I guess that was a bonus. The second one had some large windows in the church right where the ceremony was taking place so there was plenty of ambient light. Most of the churches that I've been to around here don't have much in the way of ambient light so it's usually pretty dark, which will make my job that much tougher. What camera did you use for the first 3 weddings? Also, when you say 'no flash', do you mean no external flash, or not even the built-in flash?

Thanks for sharing your experience and your photos with me for some much needed inspiration, Laurie :) And I can get you chocolate chip if you like, even if I have to bake it myself :)


All of these were with my trusty old Canon 10D...and I didn't use any flash at all, not even the built-in one. I just lucked out with the outdoors and the windows. I hope luck is with you when you shoot. :)
 07/04/2006 12:15:10 AM · #48
Those are some quality photos Lauriel. Very impressive...
 07/04/2006 12:59:18 AM · #49
There are people out there who don't find it as easy as you and I do. They want help. And they are asking for it. So why not help them.
[/quote]
I don't find it easy. Fun, frustrating - sure. A lot of work, yes.
Originally posted by Judi:

Yes, every wedding is different...and that is what confuses them.

And that's why it's hard to give advice... I had a may wedding on a very rainy day, in a dark church (shoot ISO 1600 at f2.8 at 1/60 and pray). I was restricted to the balcony during the ceremony. Reception was 1 hour in the church hall w/ coldcuts. This past saturday the wedding was outdoors, 90 degrees with 80% humidity, the hall was NOT airconditioned. No music at the ceremony. The formal shots were to be in the garden next door, but 'grandma' didn't want to walk that far so we did the shots under a tree...the BG was a bit too bright for my liking, but you do what you can, right?

Originally posted by Judi:

How do they handle this problem?
Are there some general guidelines to help them through it?

Assist a photog. Read books. Go to ANY wedding and observe the photog.

Originally posted by Judi:

What equipment is best?

2 1Ds cameras, one as backup. 5D's will work in a pinch. 16-35 2.8L, 70-200 2.8 IS, 85 1.2, 300 2.8 IS and the 15mm fisheye, and probably a macro. And a backup copy of each item. No, I;m not being funny - go lurk in a pro-photog forum (not FM, a real working wedding photographers forum]) and the answer to how much gear do you take to a wedding often adds up to $45,000.

What equipment do you need? That's a different answer.
If you are the primary photog and getting paid, you need backup equipment. A wedding is a one-time deal, very often the most expensive day in a person's life where they spend $15,000-30,000 in one day. These are memories that will last 50 years, maybe more. If their house catches fire the first thing they'll save is the pictures. You CANNOT screw this up. The bride has often dreamed of this day for 10 or 15 years. To give crappy pics is not acceptable. So they can't afford bambi cantrell or joe buissink - does that mean their wedding is any less important, special or their love is worth less?

Originally posted by Judi:

How many photos should they take?

I seem to take 750-850 RAW images running 2 bodies with different lenses. From that I get 350-400 I show the b&g. The rest are multiples of poses, techincal flubs, or ones i just don't like. The shots i take for details and teh background of the album i don't show them.
[/quote]
Originally posted by Judi:

Will they look amateur if they did it on their own and asked for the brides ideas?
What type of setups should they do or should they be candids?
How do they handle large groups?

If you go in to get your hair done they may ask what style you want, but they don't ask how to do it, what comb to use, how long to leave the curlers in, etc. Many brides have no idea what they want - that is why they hire'd a photographer - YOU need to know or have an idea on poses, etc. This part is hard for me, and many other photogs. Too many wedding parties are posed like they were in a police lineup!

Candids...hard to say. I just read an article where the photog was berating photographers for letting the industry to go hell - average joes (like many of us) can now create the technical quality of the pros, know PS, etc. 'We' don't know posing and shoot too many shots, deliver a CD and nothing more, etc. and are killing the profession. But then perhaps it's a style thing? More reality TV vs the more scripted, rehearsed better lit and better camera angle studio sitcoms of the past is changing things overall. What do people want big? Formal shots/poses. So those you have to know how to do. Bride, bride and groom.
What I am finding (and is it me or my customers (at the low end of the market) or society in general) is that people won't pose. The larger the group the more impatience. I get a lot of "What? YOu want to take a second one?" - well, yeah I do. I want to take 4 or 5 maybe - again, it may be me, but i get blinks, eyes looking sideways, motion blur, etc. in may shots so I need backups!
Originally posted by Judi:

How long should they shoot?

If they're asking this question, then they should not be shooting a wedding! If you're getting paid, it shoud be in your contract. X hours. I go the bride (or groom) and ask about the cake/bouqet/garter/etc - 'gonna do that now/soon?' and then about 20 minutes before time runs out I find them and ask "I'm done in about 15 minutes unless you want me to stay (and that costs more money). Is there anything else you want me to photograph?"

Originally posted by judi:

How do they handle lowlight?

High ISO, neat image, or perhaps flash. If you don't know your flash then learn it. You need to know fill, av, tv, and P modes and what that means, and how to use manual mode. And then shoot a wedding and learn from your mistakes!
What many pros seem to recomend it put the camera on manual mode, f4 and 1/125 or 1/60 (depends on your lens' focal length mostly) and let the flash figure out the amount of light needed. Crank up the ISO to speed up the flash recovery time and save on batteries.
My saturday wedding reception was in a bright room - but using Av mode still at times caused a dragging shutter and I got motion blur when i didn't want it. Next wedding - manual mode all the way. I gotta practice that in the mean time.

Originally posted by judi:

How do they handle the Aunt Joans always asking for freebies?
How much should they charge for their first wedding and why?
What should they include in the package?

Freebie what? It depends on your business plan how you handle some of thse issues. I am slowly ramping up and changing things as I learn a)what my customers want b)what I want c)what's profitable and what's not.
Saturday's wedding will be the first i'm posing pics for sale to wedding attendees. Breezebrowser Pro, my webspace and paypal business account enable me to do this. So what pics? The formal posed shots. 5x7, 8x10, and perhaps 11x14. that is all. If they want 4x6s they can take the shots themselves IMO. Not worth my time and trouble to sell 1 4x6 print to Aunt jane so she can have her niece scan it. I can't see many guests buying many of the other images from the wedding beyond the one's their in. If i sell more than 2 or 3 i'd be surprised.

What to charge. What is your time worth? You got a job at $40,000 a year, that's $20 an hour. So at least that, right? Wear and tear on the equipment. As a weekend warrior you may not want to charge much cause you don't have to. But ANY money you make has to be declared as income to the IRS. I;m sure if you shoot your cousin's wedding you'll be fine. However, start being a business and you better get legit - there are some photogs out there that don't take competition lightly, and will gladly throw a newbie to the wolves (tax man, business license man, etc). You got insurance? Most car policies do not cover your car if you;re using it for business, so dont' have an accident at the wedding. Your homeowners insurance won't cover your butt if your in business, if your light falls over on a kid at the reception, even if drunk uncle henry knocked it over. Your equipment is not covered if used for business either, so if someone with sticky hands walks off with your tripod, too bad.
There are buyers for goods at all price levels, and you probably won't be starting out with a premium product, so low prices. Too low and you'll not be able to pay for all that tax and insurance and license stuff.

Proofs - web or print? Print - how? book, box, album, magazine? what does that cost?
YOu giving them a CD only, as part of the package or??
Album - to me this is your #1 product. This is what they are actually buying. House on fire? Grab the photo album! Nobody I know grabs the CDs or the prints on the wall.

I just read an article by Andy Marcus (//www.fredmarcus.com/). He meets with the bride to be and asks about the type of wedding (indoor, outdoor formal casual, etc) and then shows them albums like their wedding - a bride planning a small affair in the backyard does not need/want to see the album for a large wedding in a hotel. It's not like her wedding. He has an advantage over us - time in the biz and more money that we'll likely ever see (he charges $40,000 to $200,000 for wedding photography). But the sales technique, the professionalism, asking the bride what she wants or at least likes - those things we can use at any price level.

Originally posted by judi:

Okay, the list could go on...but this is why I started this thread. To help them...open up the floodgates for questions and answers...discuss ideas...etc!


Fine, but why put this thread in the indiv photo forum and not in the pro forum? I assume you want to discuss individual photos from weddings.

SO ok, here are two - i need help with the first - it lacks appeal.

and here is one of the bride

Looks nice? I moved the flowers up. She wasn't holding them as high as i had asked...and the look in her eyes was most mean - i think it's a bit better now.

But this wedding is a good example of something - that's Elizabeth inteh pic there, age 24. I've known her since before she could talk. I know her whole family (in the pic above it's the grooms family and i don't know them). I felt no stress which is good. But I don't think I got the repect I got at my last few weddings. Probably cause they know I'm new to wedding photography. Don't know.

I need a class and some practice on being the boss at weddings. It's not necessarily my style, but to get the pics i need to be more assertive.

Message edited by author 2006-07-04 00:59:41.
 07/04/2006 01:11:39 AM · #50
Originally posted by acrotide:

Any suggestions for what I can do considering the limited gear and experience I have to work with? I'd like to know if there's some way to tone down the built-in flash a bit so closer shots won't be so washed out (cover the flash with material or something). Any advice will ease my mind right now, as the event is quickly approaching and I feel like I'm getting in over my head :) *end sermon and receive your free cookie*


Learn no more - ignorance is bliss and there is such a thing as dumb luck!

You can get good shots without a flash - sometimes. Hope for a near rainy day and a high noon outdoor wedding.

You can use slow lenses if you flash for everything. You wont' get some of the effects of a big ap lens, but oh well. Too slow a shutter speed is what you hafta watch for, as you;ll get camera shake, or the folks in the pics will move and be blurry - drive mode can help here, but the rebel is limited (hell, my 20D is limited. the 30D is much better at this). If one head is blurry in a shot move a head from another shot as a fix. Shoot everything at ISO800.

If it's a dark reception hall, you're dead. And most reception halls are dark. My first wedding was in the darkest place in the world, a real black hole of a place. I had my Metz 54 and I missed shots due to the time it took for it to recycle as it was bangin on full bore much of the time.

have fun with it.
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