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03/16/2003 09:52:26 PM · #351

Originally posted by lisae:

Originally posted by achiral:

it is obvious your fascism has reached new heights. regardless of your opinion about elections, polls, and all that, the elections are the system that works in america.

Coming from a country that has proportional representation in our upper houses, preferential voting in our lower houses, where voting is compulsory (if you don't turn up and get your name marked off the electoral roll, you are fined a small amount of money), and where we have a central body independent of any political parties that oversees all elections and all funding issues... I tend to believe that the electoral system in America does not work very well. As do many Americans I know. That's why I don't believe elections in your country are representative or fair.

Originally posted by achiral:
you can't dispute that. you can try to defend the idiots that choose not to vote, but there are people on both sides of the political spectrum that don't vote.

I think anyone who doesn't vote is a fool. They are generally apolitical or apathetic people who don't realise they are letting people with extreme views make all the important decisions that govern their life. For some reason there are a lot of such people in the US, and they have delivered us, the rest of the world, this current government in all its glory.

it all just comes back to all non-americans hating the greatness of america. i'm sorry you think you know so much. i'm happy just where i am

Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f2.8D

03/16/2003 10:38:22 PM · #352

Originally posted by lisae:

...don't realise they are letting people with extreme views make all the important decisions that govern their life. For some reason there are a lot of such people in the US, and they have delivered us, the rest of the world, this current government in all its glory.

I guess the term "extreme views" only applies to those who vote for conservatives? But, it's not extreme to want ban the Pledge of Allegence in schools, teach kids how to put rubbers on cucumbers, or for teachers to give extra credit to kids who ONLY speak and write protest letters to the President against the war against Iraq? I guess those views aren't extreme... they are just excepted liberal "values"? Well no more... the US is changing. That's why Phil Donahue is gone from MSNBC and Michael Savage has replaced him. :)

Bush is going to protect the USA regardless of views from liberals in the rest of the World. We aren't going to fashion or foriegn policy around the views of 3rd World nations anymore.

David Ey

Nikon D80

03/16/2003 10:54:51 PM · #353

How serious can someone be who have no assault weapons?

Message edited by author 2003-03-16 22:57:39.

03/16/2003 10:56:06 PM · #354

Originally posted by David Ey:

How serious can someone be who have no asault weapons?

03/16/2003 11:05:30 PM · #355

Originally posted by David Ey:

How serious can someone be who have no assault weapons?

Thanks David, now they are going to call everyone with an assault weapons a wacko. ;) Nothing wrong with them unless you use them to commit a crime. If you commit a crime with ANY weapon (assult rifle or otherwise) I think you should be put away.

The reason that does NOT happen is because we've let liberal lawyers (Clintons friends) control the justice system. You have a good "twinky defense" and the liars *cough* lawyers will get you off.

Then the same liberal politicans who support these lawyers who do this, will call for meaningless gun laws that do nothing except infringe on the our 2nd Ammendment rights.

03/16/2003 11:39:31 PM · #356

Geez... As I said, I know many AMERICANS who don't think the electoral system in your country works. You ignored that. Most of what I know about it comes from talking to them.

And no, when I said "extreme" views, I did not mean conservative views. The people who are most likely to vote in America come from all kinds of special interest groups. You keep trying to call me a "liberal" based on the weird categories that are used in your country. I'm not. I'm a member of the Greens here in Australia, the 3rd most powerful political party here. You may scoff, but we have 5 Green members of parliament in my state, and I know 3 of them personally. Because your system doesn't work you have to choose between 2 major parties that have very few differences I can recognise, and no one expects much at all of them. It's not a system I would live under.

03/16/2003 11:52:05 PM · #357

Originally posted by lisae:

haha, you are funny

03/16/2003 11:56:47 PM · #358

Originally posted by lisae:

Geez... As I said, I know many AMERICANS who don't think the electoral system in your country works. You ignored that. Most of what I know about it comes from talking to them.

Electoral has a few problems... I didn't really read that part of your rant. :)

Originally posted by lisae:

And no, when I said "extreme" views, I did not mean conservative views. The people who are most likely to vote in America come from all kinds of special interest groups. You keep trying to call me a "liberal" based on the weird categories that are used in your country. I'm not.

OK, usually when people say extreme views (in this arena) they mean conservative (but like I said that's changing). I'd disagree that mostly special interest groups vote in the US. Last, I'm not calling anyone in specific a liberal (you know who you are already ;)

Originally posted by lisae:

I'm a member of the Greens here in Australia, the 3rd most powerful political party here. You may scoff, but we have 5 Green members of parliament in my state, and I know 3 of them personally. Because your system doesn't work you have to choose between 2 major parties that have very few differences I can recognise, and no one expects much at all of them. It's not a system I would live under.

And what percent of the vote does your "Greens" party (the 3rd most popular) get in elections? And be honest. Do you ever TRUELY have a chance to win?

BadPigg

Canon EOS-10D

03/17/2003 12:01:11 AM · #359

Ive refrained from joining this rant because it makes me uncomfortable arguing about what our role is in the world. Because Ive seen many good valid points against our policies abroad, I may not agree with them all but Ive kept out of this for now.

But , we're on the eve of war and it looks like we'll be mostly goin alone except for a few countries who are nervously standing at our side. Nervous, because of what retaliation might come to them for standing with the US. I cant believe all the talk about countries being so anti-American. I have been a lifelong republican, except when I voted for Carter, but those were my higher days, but I feel I'm leaning more to wards a libertarian view point. Or something like it.

I am beginning to feel as if we should call all our troops home. Not just from Iraq's borders but all countries, all european nations ,Island countries, third world impoverished countries. All of them. Every single base closed. Every dollar of aid taken back ,every debt called in. Lock the gates, live on our own and let the rest of the world take care of itself.

If the world believes that we are the evil to watch out for let them make it through the night without our hand to hold while the wolves come prowling. Just like the wolves reintroduced into Yellowstone Park Who are decimating the elk herds on its borders, who have cut the coyote population by 3/4. Who are expanding and proliferating at an astounding rate. They, like the evil we're trying to battle now will devour what ever they want.

Remember: Peace, comes with a price tag!

03/17/2003 12:04:01 AM · #360

Originally posted by BadPigg:

exactly

03/17/2003 12:09:49 AM · #361

Originally posted by ChrisW123:

And what percent of the vote does your "Greens" party (the 3rd most popular) get in elections? And be honest. Do you ever TRUELY have a chance to win?

We're getting anywhere up to 20% of primary votes in some areas. This is enough. We don't have to "win" in our system. Because of the proportional representation system in the Federal senate and upper houses in most states, this 20% gets us enough seats to have a voice.

Most of the time, no party controls both houses of parliament in our system. The federal senate is a "house of review" where there isn't a clear majority. For either of the major parties to win a vote there on an issue that is split, they need the support of independents and minor parties. If one minor party has enough members to be able to ensure that a bill will be passed if they agree to vote with a major party, they have the "balance of power" position in the senate. This is what the Greens hold in the federal and many state upper houses. They can't form a government and they can't get their own bills passed without major party support, but major parties need to get them to agree if they want a controversial bill to pass. It's a system that works, in my opinion.

Germany also has proportional representation, to a larger degree than we do, which is why their government is a coalition between the Greens and the Social Democrats.

03/17/2003 12:17:05 AM · #362

BadPigg - Isolationism has a long history in the US. What you forget, however, is that none of the things you describe are done out of altruism. The American government only gives aid to other countries to protect its own self-interest. Same with military actions. If it isn't directly in America's interest, it is to keep good relations with important trade partners or allies.

Here is a long document from your government's aid agency that describes exactly how aid is given overseas to protect US interests.

03/17/2003 12:19:23 AM · #363

Originally posted by BadPigg:

You shouldn't keep out of it if you have an opinion. :) If you don't make your "voice" heard, you contribute nothing, and everyone should contribute if they feel they have an opinion.

Originally posted by BadPigg:

But , we're on the eve of war and it looks like we'll be mostly goin alone except for a few countries who are nervously standing at our side. Nervous, because of what retaliation might come to them for standing with the US.

Shows you who our allies ARE and who are NOT. UK, Spain, Portugal. The rest are cowards.

Originally posted by BadPigg:

I cant believe all the talk about countries being so anti-American. I have been a lifelong republican, except when I voted for Carter, but those were my higher days, but I feel I'm leaning more to wards a libertarian view point. Or something like it.

Jimmy Carter is a DISGRACE to the USA. He's a senile peanut picker and had the worst forgien relations of any President because he's so whishy washy on everything.

Originally posted by BadPigg:

I am beginning to feel as if we should call all our troops home. Not just from Iraq's borders but all countries, all european nations ,Island countries, third world impoverished countries. All of them. Every single base closed. Every dollar of aid taken back ,every debt called in. Lock the gates, live on our own and let the rest of the world take care of itself.

Not a bad idea BadPigg, I'd agree... Let these "allies" of ours ship their butter and camel dung to China and France instead and we'll see who is left standing in the end. But unfortunetely we have to protect ourselves from the MUSLIM THREAT. Muslims hate any free Western nation on purely religeous/idealistic grounds. The Koran states that over and over. And the fanatics in power in most of the Muslim nations drill this into the heads of the children. That's why they strap bombs on themselves. So the USA can't pull out. We are going to crush them. Any nation that threatins our national security and way of life is going to be crushed, with, or without the help of "the UN".

Originally posted by BadPigg:

If the world believes that we are the evil to watch out for let them make it through the night without our hand to hold while the wolves come prowling. Just like the wolves reintroduced into Yellowstone Park Who are decimating the elk herds on its borders, who have cut the coyote population by 3/4. Who are expanding and proliferating at an astounding rate. They, like the evil we're trying to battle now will devour what ever they want.

That's right, but they won't win. When those muslim pigs strike this country we are going to pound them into the ground. End of story. We don't need any liberal/communist UN nations telling us otherwise. They won't govern us and will lose in the end.

Remember: Peace, comes with a price tag![/quote]

03/17/2003 12:28:38 AM · #364

Originally posted by lisae:

why does it matter why we give aid. we have given more than australia ever will. you would like to downplay that with your anti-american agenda, but no country has done more for the world in the last 200 years than the US.

you talk about all the people you know in america that don't agree with the electoral college. this is such a minority opinion here it won't ever hold any weight here. you aren't smarter than the founders of our country. you say a lot of stuff that is based on what few people have told you about america. there are many many many more that disagree with you. you would probably like to call those people brainwashed, but it is obvious to everyone that reads this thread that you know nothing more than promoting anti-americanism. i'm sorry you feel threatened by the greatness, but there is nothing to worry about. we have done so much more good in the world than bad, it is amazing to hear you talk like that.

i will agree with you that the 2 party system here is not the best system, but then again, if people really cared to change their viewpoints here and join the green party, or libertarians, or independents, we would see more of these parties rising up. ross perot was the last person to make a legitimate run at the presidency, regardless of how bad he would have been for the country. if a third party receives a certain percentage of votes in the general election for president and doesn't get elected, they will receive automatic funding to support their party. so i don't think you are correct by making such blunt statements about the political system here.

03/17/2003 12:32:54 AM · #365

Good god. I leave for a few days and this threads moral goes straight to hell:)

Do you all honestly think that closing the US's (the melting pot) borders will solve anything?

This view, in my mind, is so childish, simple minded and goes aginst the very principles that the US was built on.

Message edited by author 2003-03-17 00:38:24.

03/17/2003 12:35:09 AM · #366

[quote=achiralwhy does it matter why we give aid. we have given more than australia ever will. you would like to downplay that with your anti-american agenda, but no country has done more for the world in the last 200 years than the US. [/quote]

It doesn't matter to these countries.... They hate the US because they are communist/socialists who hate it that we have free enterprise here and some make more money then others... If it were up to 90% of the Worlds nations, they would love to liquidate the USA's wealth and prosperity into their own nations (like a good communist likes). Well it ain't going to happen.

03/17/2003 12:39:35 AM · #367

Originally posted by Geocide:

Do you all honestly think that closing the US's (the melting pot) borders will solve anything?

This view, in my mind, is so childish an simple minded and goes aginst the very principles of the US.

Geocide, we need to keep the terrorists out of the country so it's a perfect time to CLOSE the borders. We have too many people coming here anyway, we don't need anymore. Live in your own country. Plus the immagrents of today don't assimilate into the country, but instead come here and want US to change.

A good example is the muslims that come here and sue the State when they can't wear the burkas (that cover their face) when applying for a drivers license. Well gee muslim, if you come here then you are going to have to take your burka off when applying for a drivers license... And iff you don't want to do that, then don't come here. YOU assimilate to OUR culture, not the other way around.

Message edited by author 2003-03-17 00:43:11.

03/17/2003 12:46:16 AM · #368

Originally posted by ChrisW123:

Originally posted by Geocide:
Do you all honestly think that closing the US's (the melting pot) borders will solve anything?

This view, in my mind, is so childish an simple minded and goes aginst the very principles of the US.

Geocide, we need to keep the terrorists out of the country so it's a perfect time to CLOSE the borders. We have too many people coming here anyway, we don't need anymore. Live in your own country. Plus the immagrents of today don't assimilate into the country, but instead come here and want US to change.

A good example is the muslims that come here and sue the State when they can't wear the burkas (that cover their face) when applying for a drivers license. Well gee muslim, come here then take your burka off. If you don't want to, then don't come here.

We have domestic terrorists, you know. And this country is built on a little document called the Constitution. This document is suppose to guarantee that everyone's rights and freedoms are respected. The US does NOT have a given religion therefore every religion has the same protections as everyone. Also, there's something called Civil rights that must be respected. Just think, if the government is allowed to violate some one elseâ��s civil rights, why shouldn't they be able to violate yours? They shouldn't. Terrorism is not nearly as big of a threat as it may seem. Also, terrorism has been aggravated very much recently because of the US's foreign policy.

Sorry to sound condescending but I just don't understand how people can be serious about these extreme solutions. If you have a mouse problem, do you build a concrete block around your house or do you just get some mouse traps?

Message edited by author 2003-03-17 00:47:59.

03/17/2003 12:49:19 AM · #369

Furthermore, how many countries has this closed borders policy work for?

03/17/2003 01:03:02 AM · #370

Originally posted by achiral:

you talk about all the people you know in america that don't agree with the electoral college. this is such a minority opinion here it won't ever hold any weight here. you aren't smarter than the founders of our country.

Uh... no, I've never claimed to be smarter than your founding fathers. I've simply described the way democracy works in MY country, which differs from your country, and said I like it our way. Give me some reasons why you think yours is better. Don't accuse me of thinking I'm some kind of genius.

I'm giving you the perspective of someone who is not American. I happen to like my country. It differs from yours. You keep intperpreting that as "anti-Americanism". Well no, we do things differently here and I like it. This is pro-Australianism, if anything. There is plenty about my own country I criticise, but in the case of our electoral system I think we have it just right.

Originally posted by achiral:

you say a lot of stuff that is based on what few people have told you about america. there are many many many more that disagree with you. you would probably like to call those people brainwashed, but it is obvious to everyone that reads this thread that you know nothing more than promoting anti-americanism. i'm sorry you feel threatened by the greatness, but there is nothing to worry about. we have done so much more good in the world than bad, it is amazing to hear you talk like that.

Huh? I've never called anyone brainwashed. I respect people who disagree with me if they give me good reasons for their disagreement. And for the last time, I'm not anti-American. There are Americans in this very thread who I agree with... in fact, I think so far they outnumber the few vocal people who have argued against everything I've said!

03/17/2003 01:06:37 AM · #371

Originally posted by Geocide:

We have domestic terrorists, you know.

We aren't talking about domestic terrorists.. And if we were, didn't we put Timothy McVeight away in prison? And didn't the muslim snipers in D.C. get caught and put away also? So what is the point?

Originally posted by Geocide:

And this country is built on a little document called the Constitution. This document is suppose to guarantee that everyone's rights and freedoms are respected. The US does NOT have a given religion therefore every religion has the same protections as everyone. Also, there's something called Civil rights that must be respected. Just think, if the government is allowed to violate some one elseâ��s civil rights, why shouldn't they be able to violate yours? They shouldn't.

Look man, if a muslim comes to this country they are going to take off their burka for a driver's license picture. That's our laws. It doesn't take away from their rights, it doesn't infringe on their civil liberties, and it's not racist. It's our laws. Don't you realize that terrorists rely on our freedoms to carry out their acts of terrorism in this country, and know that the LIBERALS will always defend them?! You need to get a clue in this matter my friend.

Originally posted by Geocide:

Terrorism is not nearly as big of a threat as it may seem. Also, terrorism has been aggravated very much recently because of the US's foreign policy.

Really Geocide, aggravated how? How did we "aggravate" these muslim physcopathes so much that they will come here and kill our citizans? See I'm not a pacifist, I'm a realist... And a realist fights back. A pacifist is the coward in HS who always gets his ass kicked by bullies. :)

Originally posted by Geocide:

Sorry to sound condescending but I just don't understand how people can be serious about these extreme solutions. If you have a mouse problem, do you build a concrete block around your house or do you just get some mouse traps?

Well Geocide, tell me what the solution is? And don't tell me that we should embrase Islam, or that we should be more "sensitive" to the palistinian's plight. It's NOT OUR PROBLEM. They are making it a problem, not us. They don't like the Western nations and never have. They have always been the agressers towards US. We don't give a crap. We are the solution to their problem, and it comes in the form of a MOAB.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

03/17/2003 01:11:36 AM · #372

Originally posted by ChrisW123:

Shows you who our allies ARE and who are NOT. UK, Spain, Portugal. The rest are cowards.

Haha... I'm sure our Prime Minister gets his nose out of joint every time an American like you demonstrates how ignorant you are of the fact that our own troops are already in Kuwait, waiting to be deployed. Spain's are not, and neither are Portugal's.

Originally posted by ChrisW123:

Muslims hate any free Western nation on purely religeous/idealistic grounds. The Koran states that over and over. And the fanatics in power in most of the Muslim nations drill this into the heads of the children. That's why they strap bombs on themselves. So the USA can't pull out. We are going to crush them. Any nation that threatins our national security and way of life is going to be crushed, with, or without the help of "the UN".

This is actually complete horse dung. Islam is full of moderates. There are 1.3 billion Muslims on this earth, and only a tiny handful have ever been terrorists or hurt anyone. There are as many Muslims in the US as Jews, and the vast majority of them are good citizens of your country. By saying hateful things, you are actually showing yourself to be as bad as any extremist who is motivated by fear and hatred.

You are not attacking Indonesia or Pakistan or Morocco... all of these are Muslim countries. Your problems are in the region of the Middle East, and there are local conflicts that have caused this. On top of it all, Saddam Hussein has always been a secular leader who actually suppressed Islamic extremism in his own country. In all the footage you must be seeing of Baghdad on your TV, how often do you see a woman in a burka? Many don't even wear the veil!

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

03/17/2003 01:13:07 AM · #373

Those gentlemen who disguised themselves as Native Americans and threw shiploads of tea into Boston Harbor were probably considered terrorists, or at least criminals, by their duly constituted government.

More recently, Mr. McVeigh and Mr. Koszinski (sp?) come to mind as examples of home-grown extremists, albeit of somewhat divergent philosophies.

If you want to be truly isolationist, you'll have to figure out how to return us to the days of sailing vessels and stagecoaches, and eliminate all electronic communications...as wonderful and diverse as the US may be, I don't want to be a prisoner within its borders.

DPC -- Terms of Use (Exerpt)
Prohibited Activities: DPChallenge.com specifically discourages any activity that:

â�¢ Is intended to victimize, harass, degrade or intimidate an individual or group of individuals on the basis of age, disability, ethnicity, gender, race, religion or sexual orientation.

03/17/2003 01:47:42 AM · #374

Originally posted by GeneralE:

DPC -- Terms of Use (Exerpt)
Prohibited Activities: DPChallenge.com specifically discourages any activity that:

â�¢ Is intended to victimize, harass, degrade or intimidate an individual or group of individuals on the basis of age, disability, ethnicity, gender, race, religion or sexual orientation.

I guess that little exeprt is itended towards me. Pretty typical liberal tactics... Can't handle the arguement you threaten someone. Have fun then.