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03/06/2003 05:49:49 AM · #1
Here are a couple good reads for you freedom loving people. Enjoy.

The Discovery of Freedom

The Road to Serfdom

Message edited by author 2003-06-03 04:54:53.
03/06/2003 06:25:45 AM · #2
Oh goody, Is this a flame war I'm not to late to join in on?

For the record, I dont like the Welsh.

Message edited by author 2003-03-06 06:26:13.
03/06/2003 06:44:50 AM · #3
ok time for a group hug ;-)

Message edited by author 2003-03-06 06:46:03.
03/06/2003 06:54:43 AM · #4
Lucky Charms are pretty good too.

Message edited by author 2003-05-10 22:03:59.
03/06/2003 10:25:33 AM · #5
Since it was moved over to this thread I wanted to ask MCI if he knows Jay and Silent Bob(aka Jason Mewes and Kevin Smith)?
03/06/2003 10:45:08 AM · #6
Originally posted by Antithesis:


Individuals can decide for themselves what they will or will not do. Individuals are free to do what they want. No person or government can force them to do anything. You are talking about government action.


No, I was answering posts like this:

Originally posted by ChrisW123:


"Keeping people in the country..." what a laugh. That's why so many FORIEGNERS are comming to THIS COUNTRY. I really think countries like New Newland, Australia, and Canada have issues with the US because they are jealous of this country. May sound a little pompous to say but I really get the idea that it must be the reason. I know what I'm talking about because I get the same feeling from others with the same anti-Americanism and it's usually from people in those countries.


And this:

Originally posted by welcher:


Threads like this are enough to make me forget my anti-war, pro-world outlook, and start wondering why we don't tell the rest of the world to shove it the next time they want our military to fix their problems. (Note that I'm not saying Iraq is one of those times.)


These kinds of attitudes seem to be built on ignorance of our own contributions to your wars, and the fact that when the new Iraq war finally arrives (as I have no doubt it will) our own troops will be there, fighting alongside yours. Just like our SAS troops did in Afghanistan. Just like our troops did in the Gulf War, Vietnam and Korea.

Nothing in my post was criticism of any government, just explaining facts of history to people who seem ignorant. We have every right to criticise the US government's actions, considering that our own men and women are going to be involved.
03/06/2003 10:52:17 AM · #7
Lisae,
I'm not sure if you saw my last post in the other thread but the U.S. Marines were sent into East Timor. Trust me as someone in the military I appreciate any help from the our allies and only hope someday myself and others like me could lay down our weapons and live in a peaceful world.
03/06/2003 10:57:41 AM · #8
For mci (if he reads this):

Originally posted by mci:

The truth of the matter is that no one here knows enough of the truth behind what motivates the actions of the world's governments to create a fully informed and unbiased opinion. This is by design. Internet forums like this illustrate the fact that the majority of people do not possess the mindset the rationally make decisions for an entire country.

My point: keep in mind when you decide to debate, when you decide to protest, when you decide to form an opinion, that you do not have all of the relevant information. You are not entirely aware of the impacts and consequences of war. Equally, you are not entirely aware of the impacts and consequences of peace. Millions of tiny bits of information weigh heavily on the decisions made by our governments every day. Don't think that you can boil it down to fundamental principles. To think it is a simple matter of right and wrong is naive.


I would agree with you on every point here. However, you're missing something. We live in democratic countries, where our governments are accountable to their citizens. The opinions you speak of, however uninformed they are, determine the direction a democratic country will head. This is why, in my opinion, debating these issues whenever possible is very important. Perhaps you are an apolitical misanthrope who never votes, but your life is in part controlled by the collective force of all these little malformed opinions. Don't treat them so lightly.
03/06/2003 11:01:16 AM · #9
Originally posted by jimmyn4:

Lisae,
I'm not sure if you saw my last post in the other thread but the U.S. Marines were sent into East Timor. Trust me as someone in the military I appreciate any help from the our allies and only hope someday myself and others like me could lay down our weapons and live in a peaceful world.


I did see it. I sent you a private message about it :).

I don't believe US Marines were part of the INTERFET force. They may have been involved in the UN peacekeepers that went in afterwards, but everything I can find that describes the composition of INTERFET includes US "logistical support" and one warship.

But I do appreciate that you understand the support we give you. As I described, I've grown up around the Australian military (I didn't add that my father was in the army reserve through most of my childhood). People who are actually involved in war tend to have a much more balanced view than those who think the rest of the world expects the US to "fix all our problems"...
03/06/2003 11:20:35 AM · #10
Oh, and for the record... My surname is Evans, so don't knock the Welsh :).
03/06/2003 11:52:49 AM · #11
Originally posted by lisae:

For mci (if he reads this):

I would agree with you on every point here. However, you're missing something. We live in democratic countries, where our governments are accountable to their citizens. The opinions you speak of, however uninformed they are, determine the direction a democratic country will head. This is why, in my opinion, debating these issues whenever possible is very important. Perhaps you are an apolitical misanthrope who never votes, but your life is in part controlled by the collective force of all these little malformed opinions. Don't treat them so lightly.


290,410,472 different people deciding if they can trust a lesser of two evils, who may or may not stick to his word once he is actually elected, is hardly the epitome of democracy.

to paraphrase a huge debate i won't get into: 290,410,472 wrongs don't make a right.

on a personal note, yes, i am very apolitical. i try to live my life without worrying too much about what other people are doing. if i were to cry foul every time a redneck in texas kicked a puppy, i may be taking the moral high road, but i'd also be stressed out to no end about the constant injustices that invade this planet.

however, i'm no misanthrope. i love this planet and the people that inhabit it, and i think there are plenty of good people out there. my problem is that being on the internet for 9 years and various other computer networks for years before that makes a person very jaded to the opinions of the common folk, which most people didn't have to be subjected to before these types of technologies existed. it's the main reason i've stayed away from most internet communities. in fact, dpchallenge was really the first one in all my years that i got into and participated in.
03/06/2003 11:58:44 AM · #12
As long as we're coming clean, I find comments like this one from Lisa to be tremendously insulting:

"On a smaller scale, I'm sure there are people in the US whose only exposure to the opinions of people from other countries is through sites like this one. I'm glad that they get to see all sides of the argument and decide for themselves."

That is just ridiculous. To imply that Americans are the only ones in some kind of desperate need of outside contact, and that we are the only ones that need the internet to get it. I'd bet Australia is every bit as isolated from the outside as the US, and I'd bet you're every bit as dependent on the internet to come in contact with the "outside world" as the US.

And Lisa, I'm aware that other countries contribute just as much as the US, if not more when looked at from a per capita standpoint. That recognition doesn't obviate the fact that a lot of folks out there are not grateful for the help the US does give. That ungratefulness is perhaps understandable given our current Administration, but it is still frustrating.
03/06/2003 03:38:43 PM · #13
to all those people who claim the war is all because of oil, riddle me this:

Why didn't we take the oilfields in the first Gulf War? Or Desert Fox in 1998? Because besides what you think in your head, you have no point. You have no basis for that interpretation. It's all made up by people who don't care to actually look at the facts. We could have easily taken Iraq's oil by now many times but haven't. Can you explain that?
03/06/2003 03:47:22 PM · #14
Originally posted by achiral:

to all those people who claim the war is all because of oil, riddle me this:

Why didn't we take the oilfields in the first Gulf War? Or Desert Fox in 1998? Because besides what you think in your head, you have no point. You have no basis for that interpretation. It's all made up by people who don't care to actually look at the facts. We could have easily taken Iraq's oil by now many times but haven't. Can you explain that?

How about the fact that up until recently, we hadn't suffered a major terrorist attack on our soil, at least one not perpetrated by one of our homegrown fanatics. We had to be primed to accept an invasion by the US of a sovereign nation, tricked into welcoming the suspension of those civil rights we purport to "protect," wait until all three branches of government were controlled by one radical party. Unfortunately for us ordinary citizens, they are radicals bred and raised to the imperial, not domocratic, tradition.

Oh yeah, waiting until people are so desperate for jobs they'll manufacture munitions. Nothing like a good war to stimulate the economy, especially in the heavy manufacturing and petroleum industries controlled by...

Message edited by author 2003-03-06 15:51:47.
03/06/2003 03:51:42 PM · #15
Originally posted by achiral:

to all those people who claim the war is all because of oil, riddle me this:

Why didn't we take the oilfields in the first Gulf War? Or Desert Fox in 1998? Because besides what you think in your head, you have no point. You have no basis for that interpretation. It's all made up by people who don't care to actually look at the facts. We could have easily taken Iraq's oil by now many times but haven't. Can you explain that?


And if I'm not mistaken, we also have huge amounts of oil that can be farmed in Alaska. Doesn't much make sense to go to war for oil when we could just tap into our own. This war is much larger than just oil I think. We are trying to remove a crazy man from a power he probably shouldn't have in the first place.
03/06/2003 04:04:57 PM · #16
Originally posted by achiral:

to all those people who claim the war is all because of oil, riddle me this:

Why didn't we take the oilfields in the first Gulf War? Or Desert Fox in 1998? Because besides what you think in your head, you have no point. You have no basis for that interpretation. It's all made up by people who don't care to actually look at the facts. We could have easily taken Iraq's oil by now many times but haven't. Can you explain that?


How about a little thing called diplomacy? The guise of Hussein's WMD and, as GeneralE pointed out, terrorism and the 'axis of evil' has been a really good example of the US manufacturing consent for attacking this country. Without this consent, which they're discovering doesn't come easily, it would have been impossible to 'take Iraq's oil' lest they be ostracised from the international community.

They don't seem to be nearly as concerned about North Korea, even though those guys have actually started up their reactors and have even threatened to use nuclear weapons against the States. Isn't that more of a cause for concern than a few Iraqi missiles that couldn't even make it to the Atlantic, much less over it? The only reason I can think of is that it's not actually about the weapons of mass destruction. It's about preventing Hussein from flooding the market with cheap oil and drastically reducing profits of American oil companies. Do you think it'd be a good idea to build an oil empire and then become president so that you could use public funds to oust the biggest threat to your bottom line? The guy's dad did it, and so is he. W. may not be the brightest spark on the face of the planet but as a businessman, he's very shrewd.

Message edited by author 2003-03-06 16:05:38.
03/06/2003 08:03:57 PM · #17
Originally posted by achiral:

to all those people who claim the war is all because of oil, riddle me this:

Why didn't we take the oilfields in the first Gulf War? Or Desert Fox in 1998? Because besides what you think in your head, you have no point. You have no basis for that interpretation. It's all made up by people who don't care to actually look at the facts. We could have easily taken Iraq's oil by now many times but haven't. Can you explain that?


Of course its for oil and of course this war will stimulate the american economy, comon please dont tell me bush wants this war to liberate the IRAQIE people, that excuse is just beyond comprehension!

Bush should concentrate on "REAL" threats such as N.korea but then again there isnt much profit in fighting them.



Message edited by author 2003-03-06 20:04:33.
03/06/2003 08:19:45 PM · #18
Originally posted by achiral:

to all those people who claim the war is all because of oil, riddle me this:

Why didn't we take the oilfields in the first Gulf War? Or Desert Fox in 1998? Because besides what you think in your head, you have no point. You have no basis for that interpretation. It's all made up by people who don't care to actually look at the facts. We could have easily taken Iraq's oil by now many times but haven't. Can you explain that?


I think because that wouldn't have been covered by the UN resolutions which only said "free Kuwait" and not "invade Iraq and stay there to take its oil"?

It's very easy to find answers to such questions on the net (I recommend Google). And it's even a military site above, so I guess nobody can say it's palliated in favour of the pro-peace people. Anyway, so far about "people who don't care to actually look at the facts".

Also that would have required to enter Bagdad, which I heard Bush senior was not willing to do because of the house-to-house fighting, which would have increased the number of casualties significantly.

Message edited by author 2003-03-06 20:20:47.
03/06/2003 08:41:30 PM · #19
Originally posted by wackybill:

And if I'm not mistaken, we also have huge amounts of oil that can be farmed in Alaska. Doesn't much make sense to go to war for oil when we could just tap into our own. This war is much larger than just oil I think. We are trying to remove a crazy man from a power he probably shouldn't have in the first place.


These huge amounts are in total about 3% of the world's oil reserves. But the USA needs 25% of them. Also there is a growing amount of adversaries to the idea of drilling for oil in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. I read that here.
03/06/2003 11:44:38 PM · #20
Iraq has 10% of the world's known oil reserves. Kuwait has another 10%. Saudi Arabia has 29%.

The Gulf War came as a complete surprise to Saddam. Up until then, he had been America's friend. Despite the Iran-Contra affair, most of the US's backing went to Saddam during the Iran-Iraq war (but in truth Reagan didn't really want either side to win, most people liked the idea that they were having a long, drawn out war of attrition). So then Saddam came out of that war with a shattered economy but a lot of weapons. Kuwait started slant drilling Iraqi oil and flooding the market, thus lowering prices to the detriment of the Iraqi economy. So he invaded, thinking he had American consent to do so.

But no, the US did NOT want Saddam to have 20% of the world's oil reserves. He's too unpredictable. So the Gulf War occurred, and just to make sure he never tried something like that again, he was told to disarm. Bush the First even advocated an armed uprising against him... but then when it happened, among Shi'ites in the south, he ordered US helicopters to fly harmlessly overhead and allow Saddam to bloodily crush all resistence...

See, Saddam is a member of the tiny Sunni minority in Iraq. The majority of Iraqis are Shi'ites, followed by Kurds. The West preferred a Sunni to be in power, and still does to this day. If the Shi'ites take over, you'll have another Iran on your hands. If the Kurds are allowed to separate, you'll have civil war in Turkey.

So regime change looked impossible back then. There were no Sunnis available to take over from Saddam. The US turned to a policy of containment, and that's what has been enforced ever since.

Now, however, I think there are a few possible replacements among Saddam's Sunni enemies. This is why Bush II is planning to go in. He has a new puppet lined up to keep this brutal dictatorship going. A lot of people think the aim of the war is to bring democracy to Iraq... fat chance! As most experts on the region know, the moment you bring democracy to that country, the Shi'ites will gain power. How can they not? They're the majority!

This is all in addition to the other issues that have been noted - that the UN resolutions for the Gulf War only covered defending Kuwait, etc. I hope what I've said makes things a little more clear.
03/06/2003 11:48:54 PM · #21
Originally posted by welcher:


"On a smaller scale, I'm sure there are people in the US whose only exposure to the opinions of people from other countries is through sites like this one. I'm glad that they get to see all sides of the argument and decide for themselves."

That is just ridiculous. To imply that Americans are the only ones in some kind of desperate need of outside contact, and that we are the only ones that need the internet to get it. I'd bet Australia is every bit as isolated from the outside as the US, and I'd bet you're every bit as dependent on the internet to come in contact with the "outside world" as the US.


You missed my point completely. Dmitrii drew comparisons between the propaganda being pumped out by the US government and stories his (Russian) grandparents, etc. have told him about life under Stalin and Lenin.

My point was that nowadays we have the internet, which makes it impossible for people (in any country) to be completely controlled by government propaganda. It allows people to organise mass protests and be exposed to outside points of view. This is why China controls it so strictly.

I wasn't saying "Americans are stupid" or anything that ludicrous.
03/06/2003 11:57:10 PM · #22
This is what is wrong with this world today and the kids in it. The adults don't show respect for their government and authority. I am all for our leaders decisions and if they are wrong in their dicisions then God will take care of them.

I would like to know where most of you get your info, because if it is from the T.v. stations you are being guided in so many direction that your head is spinning. Have faith in your government and if you don't then ask yourself, "should I be here or am I causing war among our fellow man"?

Would you like to live in Iraq and have Saddam as your leader? And why?
03/07/2003 12:02:49 AM · #23
Originally posted by Sonifo:

Would you like to live in Iraq and have Saddam as your leader? And why?


I can't wait to here some of the responses to this. :) I bet we will here "sure, better then the USA!" Or "..at least Saddam doesn't have ties to oil companies.". Or maybe "Iraqi's love Saddam". LOL, I've heard it all. BTW, lisae, before even clicking your profile I KNEW you were from either New Zeland, Canada, or AUSTRALIA!! Hahaha, proves my previous point from last night. To funny. :)
03/07/2003 12:10:22 AM · #24
Lisa, I'm sorry then that I misinterpreted. You can see how my interpretation would cause one to get worked up!

And to clarify. I am anti-war. I am pro-US-being-a-better-world-citizen. I love Europe, and I love the US. My only complaint is that in the zeal to bash the US (some of which is certainly deserved), a lot of people forget or ignore the vast amount of good we do in the world, too.
03/07/2003 12:17:57 AM · #25
Originally posted by ChrisW123:

BTW, lisae, before even clicking your profile I KNEW you were from either New Zeland, Canada, or AUSTRALIA!! Hahaha, proves my previous point from last night. To funny. :)


Your point from last night, which I quoted, was that people from those countries are jealous of the US. Can you explain to me how I have somehow proven this?
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