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02/15/2006 04:13:24 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Actually, very few of the challenges require the use of a model. It's just some people's taste that pushes them to shooting more shots with people in them.
What might be appropriate would be a sentence or two in the rules that generally discourages the use of any model, pet, subject, scene, place, landscape, border, style, etc. to the extent that it becomes familiar to the voters and can be easily identified with a particular user. Violation would not be a DQ-able offense but rather let the voters decide as we do with meeting the challenge. |
I certainly hope you are joking because that is just lame.
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02/15/2006 04:31:46 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by laurielblack:
Originally posted by coolhar:
What might be appropriate would be a sentence or two in the rules that generally discourages the use of any model, pet, subject, scene, place, landscape, border, style, etc. to the extent that it becomes familiar to the voters and can be easily identified with a particular user. |
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02/15/2006 04:42:54 PM · #53 |
Does this mean that we should ban Joey's fog machine? I think we should force him to give it to another photographer for a one-time use and be passed around randomly so that no one can guess who took the shot.
How about a new rule: No one can take a shot of the same thing, animal, place or person twice. They can never use the same processing tools more than once and they have to fly to a different state for each challenge so that no-one will recognize them based on the landscape or cityscape that they might be known for. Then we will need about 1000 more SC members to police this policy.
Sounds like fun! |
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02/15/2006 04:48:42 PM · #54 |
| Lets not forget that Hitchock was in every movie he ever made |
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02/15/2006 05:57:02 PM · #55 |
I knew the second I saw this while thumbing through that it would ribbon...just because it was recognizable Joey...
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02/15/2006 06:30:39 PM · #56 |
I feel I can recognise a photographer or a favored model and still be able to judge the shot on it's merits. While some people may vote up a given shot because they like them as a person, there are probably an equal number who will vote them down because they can't stand overtalented pipsqueaks. Give the average voter credit for being able to judge the shot on it's own. The shot of Joey would have been easy to spot even with another person sitting in the chair, because he has developed a unique style.
Message edited by author 2006-02-15 18:31:13. |
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02/15/2006 06:42:37 PM · #57 |
Aha! Now I know my my entries this week are doing so badly. My self portraits usually do rather poorly. This also has something to do with the essence of my self portraits and why I use myself as my model. That kind of art for me is a personal thing and for me to truly keep it personal and about me, which it is, I feel that I should be the person in my photo rather than hiring someone to "play" me. Plus my ideas are crazy enough nobody else would want to do them without pay anyway and I made a promise of myself not to mix art and money (at least in the creation process.)
Message edited by author 2006-02-15 18:42:51. |
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02/15/2006 06:48:43 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
The shot of Joey would have been easy to spot even with another person sitting in the chair, because he has developed a unique style. |
Just to clarify, he did not 'develop' or 'create' a unique style, he simply mimicked another popular style, to the best of his ability.
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02/15/2006 07:53:23 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by deapee:
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
The shot of Joey would have been easy to spot even with another person sitting in the chair, because he has developed a unique style. |
Just to clarify, he did not 'develop' or 'create' a unique style, he simply mimicked another popular style, to the best of his ability. |
Are you so jealous over a teenager that you have to put everyone in their place?
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02/15/2006 07:57:30 PM · #60 |
Once again, please keep your posts on-topic and not descend into personal attacks. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, after all...
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02/15/2006 08:00:29 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by Manic:
Once again, please keep your posts on-topic and not descend into personal attacks. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, after all... |
True. That's why I posted mine.
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02/16/2006 01:22:42 AM · #62 |
Originally posted by muckpond:
don't they decide already? i mean, threads like these keep popping up. i can't imagine that doesn't affect the scores they give. |
Of course they are already decideing. But the fact that the topic keeps popping up, as you say, indicates that the photographers may need a slightly stronger push to keep the concept in mind. There are some here who obviously benefit from the popularity contest aspect and actively play off of it.
Besides, it is good for the photographer to branch out from an established recognizable style or subject, and to learn new things instead of doing the same thing "over and over and over" again.
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02/16/2006 02:54:47 AM · #63 |
Originally posted by deapee:
Just to clarify, he did not 'develop' or 'create' a unique style, he simply mimicked another popular style, to the best of his ability. |
It is only the young who worship at the cult of originalty. With a bit of experience you see that we all base our thoughs and ideas at least partialy on the work of others. By the way that is not an original idea.
"If I saw further than others it was because I stood on the shoulders of giants." Issac Newton. |
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02/16/2006 03:43:48 AM · #64 |
harvey....i find your take on this topic particularily interesting. i for one have, over time, developed a passion for working with people...and pretty much everything i do these days has people in it...even if i'm not doing it for DPC. however, i would be fairly disgusted if limitations were put upon us in challenges that "generally discourages the use of any model, pet, subject, scene, place, landscape, border, style, etc."...why make our society more orwellian than needs be?
people develop, over time, a sense of who they are...a sense of style that they are comfortable with...and if they are lucky, they recognise it and polish it. so what if we can go through challenges and distinguish attributes that lead us to believe that a particular photo was taken by a particular photographer? in truth, it is that particular aspect that makes me proud of our fellow DPC'ers...the very same that i have grown with for the past 4 years...the fact that they have managed to develop their own style...something that i am still waiting to do. so, to say that photographers "who obviously benefit from the popularity contest aspect and actively play off of it" is a little harsh, but even if they do...who cares? the bottom line is that people are still learning from them...i know i am.
sure there is nothing wrong with branching out and delving into other directions...if we choose to. i hope to do exactly that in the very near future...but i guarantee that i will continue to do people photography because that is what i love. so if one is able to take a challenge topic and have the imagination to not only make it fit the general regulations of that topic...but also be able to fit one's own particular style into it...then kudos. why on earth would anyone want to stifle that creativity? |
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02/16/2006 08:08:20 AM · #65 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Besides, it is good for the photographer to branch out from an established recognizable style or subject, and to learn new things instead of doing the same thing "over and over and over" again. |
Who says it's good?
It's your opinion and you're entitled to it, but that doesn't make it "good" for everyone.
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02/16/2006 08:23:07 AM · #66 |
| Its my opinion that subconsciously if a voter sees a recognizable or semi- recognizable "site celebrity" the voter associates the past quality of the photog's work with the challenge photo. GEnerally, if the photo wins, its a great shot, but none-the-less psychologically teh shot has been notched up because its one of the recognizables. Just my opinion. |
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02/16/2006 09:45:48 AM · #67 |
Originally posted by Alecia:
people develop, over time, a sense of who they are...a sense of style that they are comfortable with...and if they are lucky, they recognise it and polish it. |
And perhaps abuse it...?
I'm not certain that abuse is the right word but and I will not mention any specific photographers or images though they do come up in threads and fit the bill.
I'm a bit of a purist in this sense, where if I knew that people recognized my face (or a model that I use) or location...I swear that I wouldn't use it over and over. That's not to say that NYC shots are off limits...it's a big city but specifically I would NEVER use my Fisheye on landmarks with similar PP methods each time, especially if I knew those images would always garner high votes (ribbons or good placing) because I think that's cheesy and not the way I choose to play the game. I love nice votes and high placing as much as the next guy but getting there in such a way wouldn't make me feel good or proud in any way...intentional or not.
I do explore nitches and stick with them for a time but I also try to move on and experiment new space. My portfolio and Challenge entries are all over the place to illustrate that. I prefer the "Challenge" part of DPC more than the tried, true...easy vote getting stuff.
That works for me and I don't expect everyone to view this place or my standards the same way but if you know that a model will garner high votes due to recognizability more than the style with which he/she is presented, In my mind, that zaps the fairness out of things. It's not rampant....and it's not about style....it's about model reconizability.
Message edited by author 2006-02-16 09:53:59.
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02/16/2006 09:56:05 AM · #68 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by coolhar:
Besides, it is good for the photographer to branch out from an established recognizable style or subject, and to learn new things instead of doing the same thing "over and over and over" again. |
Who says it's good?
It's your opinion and you're entitled to it, but that doesn't make it "good" for everyone. |
Why is it good or why is it not good?
I see a trend in this thread and many threads, people state things and then simply say..."It's my opinion" or "It's your opinion" as if having an opinion is good enough.
But....very seldom do I see the opinion followed up by a logical and interesting explanantion for that opinion. That is when the threads break down because each person feels entitled to an opinion without earning some understanding.
But...nobody exchanges any information when this happens and so other readers of the thread miss an opportunity to understand a persons opinion.
So...putting my money where my mouth is...
In my opinion both sticking to a style AND experimenting are good.
Sticking to a style and even to a specific subject allows a photographer to polish and refine their technique. Maybe the photographer finds nuances only obtained after years of exploring a technique or subject matter. Avedon is a popular example for me to use because I like his simple but unique style, proving you don't need overprocessed skin, 4 million lights, complicated backgrounds or a degree in photoshop to produce compelling images.
Experimenting is good for several reasons. Maybe you are new to photography and haven't found a style yet. You can't find a style if you don't try new things. Also, sometimes people like variety and it keeps their ideas fresh by leaving their comfort zones.
For me, I find that at my stage of photography, trying new things allows me to learn BUT I risk not getting really good at one style, technique or subject. It shows in my up and downs scores. I get distracted by new techniques or subjects and forget basic things that affect scores like careful light balance or proper composition. I like to experiment so lower scores and some goofups are fine for now as I can see my errors and I accept the learning process.
Sometimes when I am feeling like I am gettng depressed about low scores I fall back on my product photography background to kick a higher score into my mix ..However.. I don't feel as satisfied when I score better with things I know. I want to learn...like fashion photography for instance.
Anyway, to bring the post back to the original poster....using familiar subjects over and over can be a great way to develop as a photographer and that is what many here want to do ....in my opinion :-p
Message edited by author 2006-02-16 09:58:44. |
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02/16/2006 10:37:50 AM · #69 |
Scott- Opinons are are what this place is all about...feedback, ideas etc.
I try carefully not to state "my opinion" as fact(sometimes I fail at that but I do try) and without mentioning specific photographers or specific images these waters do get muddy but that doesn't mean that these ideas don't hold true. It also doesn't mean that these opinions aren't fact though they may be hard to prove. I'm sure if I cared enough about the topic and wanted to dig up stuff to illustrate my thoughts I easily could...but I don't want to look like a bitter ole bum. All you need to do is look at some images their quality, and the comments they recieve.
It's not some huge issue for me but a bit of a bummer and it keeps me at bay and now I tend to enter less Challenges.
The seed of this thread, as I see it(an another opinion?)is NOT about developing style...Or style at all, it's NOT about using what's available or growth, or ones limited availablilty to models. It's about attracting votes, whether intentional OR NOT by using models that are recognizable.
Do people do it intentionally? I can't say for sure, although you'd have to be a fool not to know that some models are recieving sympathy votes regardless of style or quality.
There are many people here at DPC that take great...amazing shots of the same models over and over and sadly get nowhere. Speaking for myself...these are NOT the people I'm talking about regarding my posts in this thread...
all for now
Message edited by author 2006-02-16 11:51:35.
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02/16/2006 01:44:33 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by Alecia:
harvey....i find your take on this topic particularily interesting. i for one have, over time, developed a passion for working with people...and pretty much everything i do these days has people in it...even if i'm not doing it for DPC. however, i would be fairly disgusted if limitations were put upon us in challenges that "generally discourages the use of any model, pet, subject, scene, place, landscape, border, style, etc."...why make our society more orwellian than needs be? |
Orwellian ? ... hmmm. Not my intent at all. Perhaps my thought is clearer if you take it as a whole instead of breaking off the last half of that sentence - "to the extent that it becomes familiar to the voters and can be easily identified with a particular user." I, too, enjoy photographing people however I tend to lean more toward candid shots as opposed to portraits or posed photos. I have never felt any need to use the same person more than once in the 80+ challenges I have entered.
My remark about few challenges requireing models was aimed mostly, but not entirely, at the posters who seemed to be defending the repeated use of the same model because they did not have access to, or could not afford, other models. Lack of access and inaffordability are not by themselves reasonable excuses for entering pictures of the same person(s) to the extent of widespread recognition.
I think I understand what hokie has said about photographing the same subject often to perfect a certain skill, technique, or style. And I agree with him. I practice that philosophy in my attempts at sports photography. However, there may be an inherent contradiction between following that developemental track and entering challenges that have a different topic each week.
This site, and the community surrounding it, are a balance between education and competition. Education is our reason for being. Competition is what motivates us to continue pursueing education. Each user has their own personal value system regarding where the correct balance falls for them. But there is also a community-level balance that needs to be struck. As the site has grown and prospered, it is my observation that we are attracting more and more accomplished photographers who are less in need of the educational aspects of the site and more interested in the competitive. And many of our long time users have progressed in that direction also. With this trend has come more pressure against the rules (their spirit as well as their letter) and some of the underlying concepts upon which the site is founded. I think we need to be especially sensitive to infringements against the concept of anonymity in the name of education being used to gain advantage with the voters. As this pressure builds we should respond with measures that strengthen the competitive aspect here, keeping it as fair as reasonably possible. If we fail to do so we will eventually be taken advantage of by opportunists who scorn our community's values and origins.
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02/16/2006 02:35:50 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
As this pressure builds we should respond with measures that strengthen the competitive aspect here, keeping it as fair as reasonably possible. If we fail to do so we will eventually be taken advantage of by opportunists who scorn our community's values and origins. |
...or maybe, just maybe, people need to lighten up and learn to have fun again. It must be awful to have to be so anal all the time. I'd have poked myself in the eye with a sharp writing utensil long ago if I took myself and everything around me so seriously all the time. |
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02/16/2006 02:48:49 PM · #72 |
Lighten up and go take some pictures instead of sitting here. If you really believe you need a recognizable face for higher votes then go establish yourself as that face- I guarantee you cannot without the good picture coming first.
I like to be in my own pictures, it's fun and a challenge in it's own.
-JL |
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02/16/2006 02:56:39 PM · #73 |
Wow... I mean wow... I usually stay out of these topics, but I think some perspective is needed here. In my opinion it is good for photographers to revisit the same ideas, models, places, etc. to continue to find new ways to present them. It is also good for photographers to try new things, thangs that are different and exciting, and maybe even try to emulate someone else in style and theme. These are all good ways to learn without reinventing the CMOS/CCD all over again. Personally, I find many of the themey people try to fit the challenges into their themes, and I find that usually results in photos not fitting the challenge well (IMO). I score accordingly. Sometimes, it works, and I score for that, too.
But aside from all of that, it is important to remember what's at stake. A very small amount of blue pixels.
That's it. If we're here to have fun doing something we enjoy, and hopefully learn some new tricks, and become better photographers, THAT is what's important. not blue pixels. |
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02/16/2006 02:59:32 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by Joey Lawrence:
Lighten up and go take some pictures instead of sitting here. If you really believe you need a recognizable face for higher votes then go establish yourself as that face- I guarantee you cannot without the good picture coming first.
I like to be in my own pictures, it's fun and a challenge in it's own.
-JL |
I just checked out your self portraits and they are amazing. And they're all different and creative and thoughtful. I can't believe you're only 16!
Keep up the good work. |
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02/16/2006 03:04:06 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by Joey Lawrence:
Lighten up and go take some pictures instead of sitting here. If you really believe you need a recognizable face for higher votes then go establish yourself as that face- I guarantee you cannot without the good picture coming first.
I like to be in my own pictures, it's fun and a challenge in it's own.
-JL |
...but how can an ugly ole bastid like me possibly compete against a handsome young gentleman, such as yourself....?
(Pawdrix...hangs his head and groans)
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