| Author | Thread |
|
|
12/10/2005 12:10:14 PM · #101 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
So if i posted an image NOW for the 4-5Am challenge (without saying that is what it was for) - just a 'Help me make the i better' or C&C this please and then it vanishes BEFORE voting begins, then i have not 'revealed before voting is complete'. |
You'd get killed in the voting. Whenever this happens, I see negative comments on the entry because it was revealed beforehand. People vote DOWN when they've seen an image before, not up. For that reason, it's self-policing. There are just as many rumors of troll voting as there are of friend voting. Those would tend to cancel each other out.
Message edited by author 2005-12-10 12:12:12. |
|
|
|
12/10/2005 12:41:20 PM · #102 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
As I posted above:
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
- You may not reveal your challenge entries within DPChallenge before voting is complete. If you do so, we will delete the relevant forum post. If you do so willfully or repeatedly, we reserve the right to disqualify and/or suspend. |
This is in place to prevent exactly that.
~Terry |
Ahhh...but the image has now vanished (see below...) So if i posted an image NOW for the 4-5Am challenge (without saying that is what it was for) - just a 'Help me make the i better' or C&C this please and then it vanishes BEFORE voting begins, then i have not 'revealed before voting is complete'.
And just to make it more fun, it can be a differnt image. i mean, if you take 100 shots to get that 'one', it could be one of the other 1200 nearly the same, or perhaps close to the final (b&w vs color, slightly diff crop, etc).
Unless someone read the thread and can remember the image once they start voting who could know? Since it is not in the forums once voting has begun, or ever again for that matter, then it's OK?
or is OK only if it is off-this-site, as in DPCFanatics for example? |
Before voting starts is also before voting is complete.
This is not an automatic DQ, as we understand that most cases are perefectly innocent: either new users who are not aware of the site etiquette on this, or more experienced users who post a photo, and don't realize it might be good for a challenge, but delete the post when someone replies and suggests that it would be.
Historically we have applied this to outtakes as well. We usually ask that photographers not post outtakes that would give away their entry until voting is complete.
It's also become more or less a part of site etiquette not to post outtakes of any sort before voting begins. This is because your outtake may be similar to someone else's entry, so your posting of an outtake during the submission page could hurt someone else in the voting (when voters assume that person copied your idea).
As to DPC Fanatics, remember that Fanatics is not part of DPChallenge and therefore is subject to its own rules. As I am have responsibility on both (SC here, admin on Fanatics) I need to answer this from two different perspectives:
The DPChallenge Answer: DPC Fanatics is not part of DPChallenge, and is essentially the same as any other non-DPC web site. Because Fanatics is made up entirely of DPChallenge users, though, Drew has requested that chat users not share entries publically within the chatroom. It is ok to share entries privately with a couple friends (as it is anywhere else).
The DPC Fanatics Answer: In response to a request we received from DPChallenge, we do not permit public sharing of challenge entries before voting is complete. Entries may be shared privately, but chatters should ASK FIRST before sharing the entry with anyone. Direct linking to the voting page of any entry (whether your own or not) is never permitted. These policies are listed on the chat login page as a reminder. Anyone seeing a violation should report it to a chat admin.
~Terry
Message edited by author 2005-12-10 13:27:20.
|
|
|
|
12/10/2005 12:53:15 PM · #103 |
Now I and all know the rule so for me I want to say thanks for information
Icerock
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
As I posted above:
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
- You may not reveal your challenge entries within DPChallenge before voting is complete. If you do so, we will delete the relevant forum post. If you do so willfully or repeatedly, we reserve the right to disqualify and/or suspend. |
This is in place to prevent exactly that.
~Terry |
Ahhh...but the image has now vanished (see below...) So if i posted an image NOW for the 4-5Am challenge (without saying that is what it was for) - just a 'Help me make the i better' or C&C this please and then it vanishes BEFORE voting begins, then i have not 'revealed before voting is complete'.
And just to make it more fun, it can be a differnt image. i mean, if you take 100 shots to get that 'one', it could be one of the other 1200 nearly the same, or perhaps close to the final (b&w vs color, slightly diff crop, etc).
Unless someone read the thread and can remember the image once they start voting who could know? Since it is not in the forums once voting has begun, or ever again for that matter, then it's OK?
or is OK only if it is off-this-site, as in DPCFanatics for example? |
Before voting starts is also before voting is complete.
This is not an automatic DQ, as we understand that most cases are perefectly innocent: either new users who are not aware of the site etiquette on this, or more experienced users who post a photo, and don't realize it might be good for a challenge, but delete the post when someone replies and suggests that it would be.
Historically we have applied this to outtakes as well. We usually ask that photographers not post outtakes that would give away their entry until voting is complete.
It's also become more or less a part of site etiquette not to post outtakes of any sort before voting begins. This is because your outtake may be similar to someone else's entry, so your posting of an outtake during the submission page could hurt someone else in the voting (when voters assume that person copied your idea).
As to DPC Fanatics, remember that Fanatics is not part of DPChallenge and therefore is subject to its own rules. As I am have responsibility on both (SC here, admin on Fanatics) I need to answer this from two different perspectives:
The DPChallenge Answer: DPC Fanatics is not part of DPChallenge, and is essentially the same as any other non-DPC web site. Because Fanatics is made up entirely of DPChallenge users, though, Drew has requested that chat users not share entries publically within the chatroom. It is ok to share entries privately with a couple friends (as it is anywhere else).
The DPC Fanatics Answer: In response to a request we received from DPChallenge, we do not permit public sharing of challenge entries before voting is complete. Entries may be shared privately, but chatters should ASK FIRST before sharing the entry with anyone. Direct linking to the voting page of any entry (whether your own or not) is never permitted. These policies are listed on the chat login page as a reminder. Anyone seeing a violation should report it to a chat admin.
~Terry |
|
|
|
|
12/10/2005 01:04:54 PM · #104 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by bear_music:
I'd have to say I agree with that. This thread has me dumbfounded. I'd be willing to bet if we removed ALL emphasis on anonymity and let people promote their images any way they wished, the results would change very little if at all. I completely refuse to believe, especially, that (just to name one example) Manny's images score so well because people recognize that they are Manny's and vote him up. I'd think the opposite would happen, actually...
As for "voting blocs" of off-site friends, and off-site "publication" of the images, well... Do people realize that for this to have any significant effect, this off-site bloc would have to be DPC members (and PAID members at that, for the member's challenges) and would have to vote on the minimum 20% for the votes to have any effect?
Let's be realistic here, and weigh the negatives of an increasingly fascistic site versus the imagined (but not proven) "benefits" of suppressing possible (but thus far undiscovered) bloc voting. I mean, how often is this going to happen? Where's the BENEFIT of it? There's no real upside to this, compared with the effort it would take.
R. |
To follow in your theme of Let's be Realistic, I'd like to point out that we don't really know how much effect the activities complained about in this thread have on the challenge results now, or how much a change in the rules to support anonymity and tighten the "loopholes" would change those results. For all we know, the voting blocks and appeals to friends for help, etc. are already determining who gets ribbons. Two things we are sure of are that the site continues to grow, and that the desire to strengthen the provisions regarding anonymity keep coming up again and again in the forums. Even the current leadership cannot deny that sooner or later change will have to come. |
Harv,
I tried to cover that in my post. The point is that we don't know. What is being proposed here is adding a fairly extensive layer of so-called "security" to the site to combat a "problem" that we don't know even exists. We know that anonymity is occasionally breached in such a manner, yes, but we don't know that this has had a measurable effect on the voting or on who gets the ribbons.
If it can be shown that the problem is real, that the results are skewed in any measurable way by such practices, this would be the time to do somethign about it. That the "desire to strengthen anonymity" keeps cropping up int he forums is neither here nor there; it's the same people that keep pushing the proposal, rather than a wide-spread groundswell for change. The current rules already make vote-manipulating cause for DQ.
R. |
|
|
|
12/10/2005 01:05:41 PM · #105 |
Originally posted by keegbow:
So what's wrong with that if someone wants to search the web so be it.
It would be similiar to putting a DQ request in for any other reason some people here do that all the time. |
The only problem with searching the web if "someone" wants to do it, is that from some of the opinions in this thread, I suspect the SC would be the "someone."
That's a lot of pictures and photo sites out there . . . |
|
|
|
12/10/2005 01:23:58 PM · #106 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
SO I agree with Keegbow - add a rule (or a checkbox) that states "No challenge entry shall be published or displayed on any website during the challenge and voting period. Violation will be an automatic DQ".
Policing? If i see something I email the SC with the link of the infraction. Duh! The SC click the link and decide for themselves. Self policing is a moot point - to post it would be breaking the rules, so honest folk would not do it in the first place. |
Sorry, Professor, I must respectfully disagree. If I have an image I like, I reserve the right to post it to my Smugmug site and order prints and share it with my family whether I eventually decide to enter it into a challenge or not. I don't believe I am a dishonest person for doing so.
Under your proposal, I could be restricted from using my own image for a period of up to two weeks! That's ridiculous.
Many people here, including yourself, have their website in their signature or a link to their website in their profile. Are you seriously suggesting that you might delay providing proofs to your clients until after voting is over, because one of your current challenge entries happens to come from a recent shoot?
Laurielblack made a good point about never using a self-portrait in a challenge, never using the same model twice in case someone recognized a child or friend, etc.
I believe your proposal goes too far to solve an alleged problem that has not yet been proven to exist. |
|
|
|
12/10/2005 01:31:55 PM · #107 |
This is deep speculation, like parliament should not made low except it have been broken
wonder what kind of community we are living in :) |
|
|
|
12/10/2005 01:35:57 PM · #108 |
Originally posted by IceRock:
This is deep speculation, like parliament should not made low except it have been broken
wonder what kind of community we are living in :) |
That's exactly what I am wondering, too. I choose to believe the best of my fellow DPCers and not sweat this issue. My dad always taught me that the man most likely to be lying is the one who accuses others of lying. Or, more colloquially, "The smeller's the feller!"
Robt. |
|
|
|
12/10/2005 01:38:46 PM · #109 |
Originally posted by laurielblack:
So in the spirit of maintaining my personal integrity, I really shouldn't do self portraits, or take pics of my children, or my dog, or of things in the immediate DFW area, or of the other DPCers that I might go shooting with...and even if I did, I couldn't post them to my own website or to any other site on the world wide web, because my cover might be blown? Am I the only one who is failing to see the insanity in this??? |
Nope Laurie - i am sitting here thinking the same thing.
These challenges simple are not 100% anon.
Only someone who joined yesterday doesn't recognise a Joy or a Librodo.
Who here doesn't know a scalvert or a graphicfunk trick? Everyone knows Peanut, or Idnics pup. Everyonbe recognises Mandys eyes (and her kids) or Larus's Miss World (congrats!). My stupid red shoes instantly connect a photo to me. Bears lake, and well heidas entire country are dead giveaways.
This is taking it way too far. ANd like was stated earlier, even if someone does pull someone over to vote, they have to vote on 20% for it to count anyways, and if they dont vote fairly their votes are dismissed as troll voting. Its rreally no biggie kids! |
|
|
|
12/10/2005 01:42:00 PM · #110 |
Originally posted by mesmeraj:
Bears lake, and well heidas entire country are dead giveaways.
|
That's a MARSH, not a lake. Sheesh :-) And it's actually one of several marshes, if it comes to that. I'm gonna change my username to "marshmallow", I think.
R.
Message edited by author 2005-12-10 13:43:01. |
|
|
|
12/10/2005 01:45:15 PM · #111 |
To end this discussion I started:
Now we al know the rules:
DPChalange answer as I understand it says that pictures should remain anonymous until voting is complete. That is to say that they should not have been published elsewhere before that time. If a person repeatedly breaks that rule that person can be disqualified and (or suspended.
Thanks all for taking part in this conversation
Icerock
Message edited by author 2005-12-10 13:46:23. |
|
|
|
12/10/2005 01:59:19 PM · #112 |
if you look at the challenge results I don't think there are an over abundance of erroneous 10s given out.
There are however a ridiculous amount of 1s given out. If anything I think people have their friends vote down good pictures rather than vote up a single picture.
There is the rule if you vote very low you need to leave a comment, yet 99% of the comments I see are "great job" which is not overly helpful.
I know, this post doesn't exactly follow the original question, but it's something to think about. |
|
|
|
12/10/2005 02:02:58 PM · #113 |
Originally posted by megatherian:
There is the rule if you vote very low you need to leave a comment ... |
Leaving comments is encouraged, but there is no such "rule" requiring it. |
|
|
|
12/10/2005 02:05:00 PM · #114 |
Originally posted by IceRock:
To end this discussion I started:
Now we al know the rules:
DPChalange answer as I understand it says that pictures should remain anonymous until voting is complete. That is to say that they should not have been published elsewhere before that time. If a person repeatedly breaks that rule that person can be disqualified and (or suspended.
Thanks all for taking part in this conversation
Icerock |
Actually Icerock, the answer was that pictures should not be published ****within DPChallenge****. It's an important difference. You aren't supposed to post your entries in the forums.
Anonymity is more about etiquette than a hard and fast rule. |
|
|
|
12/10/2005 02:22:29 PM · #115 |
Originally posted by mesmeraj:
Who here doesn't know a scalvert or a graphicfunk trick? |
*sniff* I try to make them all different. :-( |
|
|
|
12/10/2005 03:09:00 PM · #116 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
Originally posted by mesmeraj:
Bears lake, and well heidas entire country are dead giveaways.
|
That's a MARSH, not a lake. Sheesh :-) And it's actually one of several marshes, if it comes to that. I'm gonna change my username to "marshmallow", I think.
R. |
I believe that should be marshfellow |
|
|
|
12/10/2005 03:34:41 PM · #117 |
Originally posted by A1275:
Sorry, Professor, I must respectfully disagree. If I have an image I like, I reserve the right to post it to my Smugmug site and order prints and share it with my family whether I eventually decide to enter it into a challenge or not. I don't believe I am a dishonest person for doing so.
Under your proposal, I could be restricted from using my own image for a period of up to two weeks! That's ridiculous.
|
You are not restricted from using it anyway you like. You would only be restricted from posting challenge entries elswhere until the challenge is over. I don't think that is unreasonable.
You are not restricted because you are not obligated to enter a challenge. Just like editing - you can edit any way you like, unless it is a challenge entry, then you eitehr follow the rules or face the DQ.
|
|
|
|
12/10/2005 03:50:05 PM · #118 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
That's exactly what I am wondering, too. I choose to believe the best of my fellow DPCers and not sweat this issue. My dad always taught me that the man most likely to be lying is the one who accuses others of lying. Or, more colloquially, "The smeller's the feller!"
Robt. |
This is ssssooo true.....
Message edited by author 2005-12-10 15:53:44. |
|
|
|
12/10/2005 03:53:47 PM · #119 |
Originally posted by BradP:
*laughing*
* OK, so if I put a challenge shot on a website and shared with say 20 friends. (well wish I had 20 friends anyway)
* Of those 20 friends, 12 actually took the time to pay attention to the picture.
* Of those 12, 9 bothered to read the comments saying it was a DPC challenge picture.
* Of those 9, 4 were halfway hammered from happy hour and passed out.
* Of those 5 remaining, 2 never made it past voting on 20% and their "swayed" votes never counted.
* OK now we have 3 friends, that might have voted my picture a 7 had they not known it was mine, now voted it a 10.
* 3 votes - hmmmm....sounds like an unfair 0.0185 advantage to me.
The cash prizes here demand that we have an unbiased and fair voting process, so we take 3 votes off off everyone's results to even it out.
(Do I have a future in politics or what?) |
I believe BradP described this non-issue best.
|
|
Home -
Challenges -
Community -
League -
Photos -
Cameras -
Lenses -
Learn -
Help -
Terms of Use -
Privacy -
Top ^
DPChallenge, and website content and design, Copyright © 2001-2025 Challenging Technologies, LLC.
All digital photo copyrights belong to the photographers and may not be used without permission.
Current Server Time: 07/17/2025 05:01:44 PM EDT.
