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DPChallenge Forums >> Administrator Announcements >> A reminder to chatroom participants...
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01/13/2003 11:12:02 AM · #1
It is not OK to talk about your current submission in the forums, so it's certainly not OK to talk about it in a public chatroom. It's unfair to everyone on the site.

Drew
01/13/2003 11:33:33 AM · #2
I think posting the photo to other sites reveals your photo also. Not to mention same family discussion can't be stopped. It's odd when you have one get all low scores then like 2 or 3 votes of 10. There's no way to stop every discussion. ICQ, AIM, phone, email not to mention the ones that sleep together :D


01/13/2003 11:34:58 AM · #3
Unfair in which way ?

I think if we managed to bring a voting cartel together, I might manage to sway my vote a whole .1 or so, and if this were true, I'd have a lot of complaints about my solitary 10 this week (Thank you PTLParsons - I may be a deviant to you but I'm glad you like my work...)

We don't really talk about our pictures and we certainly don't vote in an biased manner - what would the point be of that ?

Conspiracy theories are for those who aren't too hot at maths.

01/13/2003 11:39:28 AM · #4
It's one thing to talk to a friend or two about your photo. As a matter of fact, I think that's quite healthy. Talking about your image in a room full of 10+ people is not the same. Hearing a group of people discuss a photo is very likely to affect your opinion of that photo. Multiply that times 10.

As for posting to another site... that's fine, too. It's not the same as forming a group opinion of a photograph or even (subsconsciously?) asking people to vote higher for your photograph.

I know for certain that the chatroom discusses current entries and who they belong to, and I think it's very unfair. People post direct links to their current submission's comments page as well, which is equally unfair.

Drew
01/13/2003 11:43:51 AM · #5
Originally posted by Gordon:

I think if we managed to bring a voting cartel together, I might manage to sway my vote a whole .1 or so...


Since I'm not very good at math, this'll probably be wrong, but I'll give it the old college try anyway. You received 87 votes last week in the members challenge. If your 'cartel' was 10 people, that's 11% of your voting population. Surely that's enough to sway your vote more than .1 ...

Edit: I'm not accusing anyone of trying to form a 'cartel'. I'm saying it's not OK to discuss your photos here in the forums, so we do not approve of discussing photos in a public chatroom. Of course, the chatroom is not affiliated with the site, and what I say matters not at all... I'm just casting my vote of disapproval.

Drew

Message edited by author 2003-01-13 11:51:01.
01/13/2003 12:04:42 PM · #6
Originally posted by drewmedia:

Originally posted by Gordon:

I think if we managed to bring a voting cartel together, I might manage to sway my vote a whole .1 or so...


Since I'm not very good at math, this'll probably be wrong, but I'll give it the old college try anyway. You received 87 votes last week in the members challenge. If your 'cartel' was 10 people, that's 11% of your voting population. Surely that's enough to sway your vote more than .1 ...


Not really, no. If you work it out, and assuming I was scoring an average of 5, and all those nice people voted me 1 higher because I'd asked them to be extra nice to me, my score would have shifted by 0.11

If they'd added 2, it would shift it by .2, if they'd added a whole lot more it would be obvious in the voting. Obviously this is a whole lot less of an issue in the non-member's challenge too - where it would have
shifted my score by 0.05

I think it would be equally likely that some of those people in the chatroom would also vote me more harshly, given that they've had discussion on what is good and bad about the picture, thus negating any positive or negative effect. Much in the same way I've seen people voted down because they won on other sites, or 'gave away' who took the picture actually in the picture (check the comments on any of those pictures)

I really think that it is not unfair, nor actually very common at all to see much 'open' discussion on entries. People who are friends ask for feedback from other friends on their entries. I ask my wife's opinions, I'm sure the large families who are all members do the same thing, as do people via chat, messenger or any other means of sharing. People want to make as good photographs as possible and look for help where they can. I don't know that picking on a particular means of communication is really the point.

As an aside - I'd be quite happy to see 10+ in the chat room, ever. It is more like about 6 regulars avoiding work. Any one else is welcome to come on over and talk about everything and anything they like.

Message edited by author 2003-01-13 12:16:23.
01/13/2003 12:19:52 PM · #7
Just to post my 2 cents here. I used to go into the chat room. I had revealed 3 photos there. Those 3 photos did a LOT better than any photo since I stopped going to the chat.
It could be coincidence though.
Another thing. Even if the "cartel" is 10 people. That's not to say that those 10 people aren't going to be talking to someone NOT in the "cartel" and say "Hey, did you see (so and so's) photo, It was taken (add info) and blah blah blah".
I left the chat room cause I didnt like my comments saying "Love it Heather" or "Glad you went with this one, not the other one". I even got a comment AFTER voting was over saying "I liked this photo, but knowing that it came from you makes it more special". So that proved that knowing it was mine probably upped my score. Plus I didn't want to know who's photo was who's.

Message edited by author 2003-01-13 12:21:38.
01/13/2003 12:30:16 PM · #8
By a similar token, for pictures that I haven't shown anyone, I still get comments saying 'is this Gordon's' or 'is that Gordon's wife'

Should I refrain from using my wife as a model as it gives away that I took the picture and then people will vote it higher ?

You were probably just getting better, Heather...
01/13/2003 12:35:31 PM · #9
Like I said... even talking to 5 people individually (on aim, messenger, during sex, or whatever you'd like to use) is not the same as developing a group opinion on a photograph. This is not the same as just knowing that a photograph was taken by another user -- i.e. by recognition of a model or because you see the photograph on another site. Discussions about current photos are not allowed here for a reason.

Drew
01/13/2003 12:39:19 PM · #10
Originally posted by drewmedia:

Like I said... even talking to 5 people individually (on aim, messenger, during sex, or whatever you'd like to use) is not the same as developing a group opinion on a photograph. This is not the same as just knowing that a photograph was taken by another user -- i.e. by recognition of a model or because you see the photograph on another site. Discussions about current photos are not allowed here for a reason.

Drew


Okay, you are entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine and we obviously disagree - and that is also fine.

You should come on over to that particular chat room some time though - and you'll see it isn't the hot bed of vote swapping and picture revealing that some seem to think it is. Mostly it is like all other 'net chat rooms I've been in. Full of people talking drivel, wasting time and occasionally, very occasionally making a comment that is 'on topic' for the theme of the room. Aside from the fun of that - we often share techniques for photography which is the main useful thing about it.

Message edited by author 2003-01-13 12:40:44.
01/13/2003 12:43:34 PM · #11
I've been to the chatroom, and I think it's a wonderful thing and the people there are great people... I just wanted to cast my administrator's vote in saying that discussing your photo in a public chat room is the same as discussing it in the forums. This certainly isn't restricted to the fanatics chatroom, which we appear to be singling out.

Drew
01/13/2003 12:53:30 PM · #12
I tend to live in the fanatics chatroom - self employed and not lot of work right now.

The VAST majority of the time photography is the furthest thing from most minds and we are just babbling away about nothing in particular.

When photography is discussed it's often just generally.

On occasion people let others know which photos are theirs. This has very seldom been open in the forum during voting, and in all the hours I have spent there, I have not seen open discussions on a current entry.

Rather it's a case of individuals sending private messages to each other and sometimes including their image ID.

I resent the accusation that this is done in order to change voting. For myself I never change votes based on whose image it is - even when I know. Infact I usually do my voting first and then talk to people about which images are theirs and I have never ever changed a vote after being told.

I think that this theory that people are garnering sympathy/ friendship votes is ridiculous and more than a little paranoid.

As for Heather's experience above - I really have no idea whether it's a case of coincidence - that those images just happened to be stronger - or not - but I really don't know that many of the people I chat to in the chatroom would vote higher in that manner.

I also don't think anyone finds out the identity of the owner of an image and then spreads the news - I think most of us can find more interesting things to talk about than that! And I would never pass on the ID of someone's image to someone else - that's up to them to do if they wish to.

I can see that you don't want open discussions of individual photos during a challenge, but as someone who has probably spent more hours in that chatroom than most people, over the last months, I can't say I've seen what you seem to be referring to.

Message edited by author 2003-01-13 12:56:29.
01/13/2003 01:15:01 PM · #13
I talk to myself a lot, does that count?

It is nice to have rules and guidelines, for sure. But, how far do they, or even, can they extend? Drew is well within his rights to dictate the rules within his realm, but that is about it. If we all want to play at his site, then we all have to agree to play nice and as desired by our host. It is simply good manners.

Besides, this subject seems to be a bit over the top, and in reality, it is likely not as threatening as the fear of it.
01/13/2003 01:15:39 PM · #14
For the record, I have not 'accused' anyone of trying to sway the vote system or using the chat room to do so. All I've said is that discussing your images in a chat room will affect your score just as discussing them here would -- the latter being forbidden by the site.

Drew
01/13/2003 01:18:35 PM · #15
We have received the message, loud and clear.
01/13/2003 01:58:35 PM · #16
I have to agree with Drew. I think people tend to get in their little clicks and vote each other higher. There was one particuler photo that was discussed in the chat room and ended up getting a ribbon. I won't say which one, but I do believe the vote was swayed some what. I had already voted on the picture and didn't go back and change my vote.
I could be wrong though.
I only let one person know what my picture was and that is because I needed to know if it met the challenge or not.
That's all.
01/13/2003 02:22:43 PM · #17
OK, time for me to set the records straight. As you all know, I'm one of the admins for the 'DPC Fanatics' chatroom (and I own the website it's running on too), which is the one that is being referred to in this thread, directly and indirectly.

Firstly, the practice of sharing current entries (ie those still being voted upon) publically is incredibly rare, although I admit that there have been one or two incidents in the past week where urls to current images have been accidentally posted into the main chat, but this is an exception rather than a rule.

Secondly, between a small number of the users, there is some sharing of current entries, but this is usually done via private messages (which we have a policy of not logging), so is not any different to sharing via email or IM or whatever. I can also assure you all that I've never seen anyone on the chat pass on the url to someone else's entry, not privately nor publically, and that it is uncommon for someone to share their entry with more than a handful of people.

Thirdly, there is definitely no "mutual high-voting clique", something alluded to by both hbunch and Sonifo. The former case is most likely to be a co-incidence, but I can't rule out the fact that getting a wider range of options of a shot before voting can help a photographer choose between a number of strong photos, which may have helped hbunch to get better scores (please note that this is a personal conjecture, rather than a statement of fact). As for Sonifo's claim, I personally do not believe that this discussion happened, but unless I am given more details as to which photo she is referring to, I obviously can't say any more. As an aside, if I know whose a particular photo is, I tend to be more critical of it, since I have no fear of offending the person in question :o)

Finally, I'll be monitoring the chatroom more closely in future, and will try (hopefully along with the other chat admins) to persuade users not to share their current entries publically on the chat.

I hope that this clears up all the issues raised in this thread. If not, please contact me directly by either chatting to me, or by PM'ing me.
01/13/2003 02:26:12 PM · #18
Wow, so that's what goes on in fanatics! Just kidding.

I admit, I'm guilty. I'll send a whisper to someone (usually the same 2 or 3 people), and say "what do you think? they respond in a whisper. hmmmm, the one picture i won a ribbon with, I don't think I showed it to anyone (maybe one, but I could be wrong). Just as there is "unwritten" etiquette here, there is there also. Recently, several people have expressed a desire NOT to discuss pics, so if someone needs an opinion, etc., they will ask. Whoever responds gets a private message. We are not a cartel or a clique, as anyone who wants to come in is more than welcome. I think Gordon explained it best when he said that it is mostly people avoiding work. And in reality, photography is one of the last things we discuss. Any serious discussion usually get thwarted in favor of pie (mmmmmmm... pie) or such. Oh well, your message was heard Drew. Lips are sealed (or fingers in this case!)

(Edit was to change the word cliche to clique. Hmmmmmmm, freudian slip?)

Message edited by author 2003-01-13 14:26:51.
01/13/2003 05:48:52 PM · #19
This is all misguided and misunderstood. I am in the chat almost daily, - intermittantly - and it is usually to keep me company while doing other things. I enjoy getting to know people, and on the occasion that photography is discussed, it is about techniques. I have never seen anyone discuss current entries. If I share a submission-to-be with a person or two, it is a private message to help me decide or what not. If heather or sonifo or anyone feels there is any vote-swaying I must say they are wrong. I find it appauling in fact to think someone could suggest such a thing. Really people...do something else with your lives. Paranoia will get you nowhere.
I'm just pretty peeved that this has come up at all. Rediculous!
01/13/2003 05:53:56 PM · #20
I agree with Karen.
I also resent the implication that these people have come into the chatroom and seen chats on an image - it hasn't swayed their voting - but they are willing to assume others do not hold those same standards?
That upsets me very much.
I spend HOURS voting - I go through every image several times refining my voting. I do that because I want to be fair.
Right now I am wondering why waste my time doing this if people are going to assume vote fixing anyway?
Also, people forget how different their own voting can be from the popular vote. In Song Titles several of my 10s and 9s are WAY down there. Many of my lower scorers are high ranked.
Lastly, if I knew who took an image before I voted I would tend to be harsher if anything since I know that person would not take my comments or vote the wrong way. That said I vote first then find out who did what and have never changed a vote after.
If I dont change my votes, and Sonja and Heather don't change theirs, why assume others do?

Message edited by author 2003-01-13 17:55:10.
01/13/2003 05:56:48 PM · #21
For the last time, I'm not implying that you're swaying the voting. In fact, after I learned that photos were being discussed, I checked a lot of voting patterns and found nothing suspicous whatsoever. All that I am saying is that I do not think discussing your photo publicly in a chat room is any better than discussing it here in the forums. Nothing more.

Drew
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