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DPChallenge Forums >> Current Challenge >> A matter of Ethics...should everyone be bagheads?
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 11/26/2005 09:22:19 PM · #1
I have been in a bit of turmoil lately because for a change, I am not sure how I feel about something. :)

I am a newbie here, in my 5th challenge. I have ponied up the dough and became a paid member, so I want to ask everyone an important question.

I know there has been lots of debate on bagheads and whether they are people who simply do not want to get flamed or whatever, but this is a bit of a twist on that. I have been trying to leave comments on entries, especially if I give them a very high or low score.

For the ones with a low score, I often get a private message from them explaining why I am wrong, either because I am (example if I said I thought a single light source 2 entry was lit by sunlight which is not artificial) or because they want to explain how and why they took the photo.

That puts me in a bad position. It is my opinion that not only should an entry meet the challenge rules to be scored well, but must APEAR to have been taken withing the rules. However when I score someone low because I think it was not meeting the challenge, then get a pm saying that it does, I want to go and rescore that photo. However a photo should be judged on it's own merits shouldn't it?

Is it ethical for a photographer to send a pm to a commenter DURING the competition voting period? This exposes who the photographer is, which defeats the purpose of anonymous presentation of the photos. It also gives them a chance to explain their reasoning, which the other entrants cannot do. Is this ethical? Perhaps all comments made during voting should automatically be bagheads to avoid this.

What do you think about this?

Ernie
 11/26/2005 09:27:15 PM · #2
Basically, that is the whole point in having the option to remain hidden until the voting is over. This was debated heavily before that option was put in place.

Should someone PM you and try to sway your vote? NO

Can they? Sure.

If you don't want to be put in that position, put the bag over your head. =)

Or, just don't read the PMs until after the challenge.

Welcome to DPC, by the way.
 11/26/2005 09:27:18 PM · #3
I totally agree with you, that it's not good to receive PM's during voting as it totally destroys anonymity. When I voted on the Illusion II entries, I received 2 PM's in reply to comments that I left on their photos that I couldn't "figure out the illusion." They both sent me an explanation of the illusion in hopes that I would rescore them.

So yes, I agree, all comments should be anonymous during voting.
 11/26/2005 09:29:34 PM · #4
Not all pm's from people are to get you to change your score. but perhaps they can better help you understand what was actually going on, rather than what was assumed.
11/26/2005 09:32:30 PM · #5
Originally posted by kyebosh:
Not all pm's from people are to get you to change your score. but perhaps they can better help you understand what was actually going on, rather than what was assumed.

But the photo should be able to stand on its own. We all get our own interpretation of a photo when we see it, but if the photographer tells us what they were going for it totally ruins it. The photographer shouldn't have to explain it to us, if we get it we get it, and if not then too bad for them.

Edit: And if a PM's not sent for the purpose of changing a vote, then why can't it wait until after the challenge when the commenter's identities are revealed?

Message edited by author 2005-11-26 21:33:54.
 11/26/2005 09:34:05 PM · #6
Not all pm's from people are to get you to change your score. but perhaps they can better help you understand what was actually going on, rather than what was assumed.

That is my whole point though...should the photo not only meet the challenge guidlines but apear to meet them? The photo should stand on it's own, not need to be explained.

To want to change your vote after something is explained to you is inevitable regardless of the intent of the pm. Why not wait till after the voting to make that pm then, if the intention is not to sway the voting?
 11/26/2005 09:35:10 PM · #7
Originally posted by basssman7:
Not all pm's from people are to get you to change your score. but perhaps they can better help you understand what was actually going on, rather than what was assumed.

That is my whole point though...should the photo not only meet the challenge guidlines but apear to meet them? The photo should stand on it's own, not need to be explained.

To want to change your vote after something is explained to you is inevitable regardless of the intent of the pm. Why not wait till after the voting to make that pm then, if the intention is not to sway the voting?

My thoughts exactly.
 11/26/2005 09:40:10 PM · #8
Originally posted by basssman7:

To want to change your vote after something is explained to you is inevitable regardless of the intent of the pm. Why not wait till after the voting to make that pm then, if the intention is not to sway the voting?


I've sent people PMs before thanking them for a comment. Why did I do it during the challenge? Because I would not have remembered to go back and do it later.

I've also had people PM me because they didn't agree with my comment. Doesn't matter to me, because I have my opinion and voted.
 11/26/2005 09:41:57 PM · #9
I have a three step process for dealing with this:

1: Read their PM.

2: Go back and look at their photo.

3: Laugh!

Repeat as necesary!
 11/26/2005 09:42:27 PM · #10
Even in great artwork, there are things you'd probably never get without explaination. Happens in paintings a lot, recently happened to me with a piece of music. We were playing a piece by the professor at my univeristy, and basically when i heard it the first few times at rehersals it didn't really sound like anything. With some explaination, the piece managed to come alive with history, culture and meaning i would have never understood without the knowledge she passed along with her explaination of the piece.
 11/26/2005 09:42:28 PM · #11
I reply when people ask a question in their comment. If they don't want an answer, don't *********** ask!
 11/26/2005 09:44:03 PM · #12
I've sent people PMs before thanking them for a comment. Why did I do it during the challenge? Because I would not have remembered to go back and do it later.


I have no problem with that as long as you do not say anything that would identify which photo is yours. It is a polite way to acknowledge those that take the time to comment. However if you say "thanks for voting on my shot of the green martian landing on the blue cheese moon" then I think it could be taken as an attempt to shift a vote.

Ernie
 11/26/2005 09:45:07 PM · #13
how do you know what the PM's intention was - or for that matter that the photog wanted a re-evaluation of the entry. i mean - you did ask a question regarding their entry.

Originally posted by :
They both sent me an explanation of the illusion in hopes that I would rescore them.


Message edited by author 2005-11-26 21:45:48.
 11/26/2005 09:49:18 PM · #14
how do you know what the PM's intention was - or for that matter that the photog wanted a re-evaluation of the entry. i mean - you did ask a question regarding their entry.

I consider any questions asked of my entries during voting to be rhetorical question. Basically the commenter thinking out loud. "Is this really just one light source?" I suppose it would be better to have worded it as "this does not appear to me to be just one light source".

edited for spelling

Message edited by author 2005-11-26 21:50:12.
 11/26/2005 09:51:50 PM · #15
look um omphaloskepsis. That is the main point behind this conversation.
 11/26/2005 09:54:50 PM · #16
Originally posted by wavelength:
look um omphaloskepsis. That is the main point behind this conversation.

what is the word when you're trying to get somebody else to contemplate your belly button as a distraction?
 11/26/2005 09:57:42 PM · #17
I don't mind recieving PM's during the voting. So far I have recieved PM's from 9 individuals among the 374 comments I posted this week. Most have been compliments on my comments :) I have gotten some in the past that did question my opinions so I explained my reasons, no big deal.
I don't change my votes. (allright I did once as a joke) In fact if someone enlightens me as to a viewpoint on shooting a topic, its the next entry which uses that approach who benefits.

If this is a real problem for everyone else and the preference is for reading comments after the voting, then I would suggest you make the entire thing anonymous. Lets eliminate the update button and the hourly updates and keep the whole vote and comments secret until the rollover.

Message edited by author 2005-11-26 22:49:20.
 11/26/2005 10:57:02 PM · #18
On rare occasions, I might send a PM and say in essence: "Not trying to change your vote but this is what I was relaying blah blah blah. Comments are always welcome, good or bad," in hopes that they will understand but not think I'm whining cause I got a low score.

But art and music and theatre, etc are all a matter of interpretation, so whether the viewer and the producer see eye to eye is part of the subjectivity to the world of gray. Anything artistic is not simply black and white. It's not like math where there is only one answer, so to explain what you meant doesn't offend me at all. In fact, it may open my eyes to see something different in the future, but don't ask me to sway my vote because I don't see what you meant for me to.
 11/26/2005 11:19:41 PM · #19
Originally posted by soup:
how do you know what the PM's intention was - or for that matter that the photog wanted a re-evaluation of the entry. i mean - you did ask a question regarding their entry.

Originally posted by :
They both sent me an explanation of the illusion in hopes that I would rescore them.

I didn't ask a question actually. I simply let them know that I didn't get the illusion they were trying to convey. Sure, it's good that they were explaining the illusion to me, but it was most likely with the intention that I would go back, realize the illusion, and raise my vote accordingly.

But you're right, I have no way of proving what their intention actually was.
 11/26/2005 11:26:28 PM · #20
Sometimes I wish I could send some PMs to point people in the right direction, but the photo must stand on its own, so I just bite my virtual lip. Everyone's perception is different, and that's part of the reason that ribbon winners wind up with 1 and 2 votes. This shot was a prime example-



My favorite comment: "...if you could have made something looking like a cow (not easy), would have made this a real stand-out shot..." LOL

The post-challenge comments from people slapping their foreheads more than made up for my frustration at not being able to respond during the voting. ;-)
 11/26/2005 11:28:54 PM · #21
eesh scalvert .. that hurts ... I think I had just joined then and hadn't voted but did look at entries. I remember this one well and LOVED it!!
 11/26/2005 11:44:01 PM · #22
Originally posted by justin_hewlett:
Sure, it's good that they were explaining the illusion to me, but it was most likely with the intention that I would go back, realize the illusion, and raise my vote accordingly.

But you're right, I have no way of proving what their intention actually was.

Even if you bumped the vote up by 2 or 3, out of 300 votes it's not going to affect their end score that much.

I would give people the benefit of the doubt that they were actually interested in explaining the illusion to you, instead of PMing you just to increase their score by 0.001 :)
 11/27/2005 12:22:00 AM · #23
Originally posted by scalvert:
Sometimes I wish I could send some PMs to point people in the right direction, but the photo must stand on its own, so I just bite my virtual lip. Everyone's perception is different, and that's part of the reason that ribbon winners wind up with 1 and 2 votes. This shot was a prime example-



My favorite comment: "...if you could have made something looking like a cow (not easy), would have made this a real stand-out shot..." LOL

The post-challenge comments from people slapping their foreheads more than made up for my frustration at not being able to respond during the voting. ;-)


Thank you that was me. Here is the full context;
Originally posted by macrothing:
7 - I like this shot and the 'clean' and 'sharp feel' and the style. Either my eyes can't see an 'abstract picture' here (maid/cow) or there isn't one (apologies if there is), so, Criticism; if you have used a dropper or something to create that pattern, if you could have made something looking like a cow (not easy), would have made this a real stand-out shot, in my opinion.


And I still didn't see it until you posted the 'for those that didn't see it'. But now I see it straight away. But I agree, especially in these Challenges, the shot should stand on its own without the need for an PM'd explanation (which includes long winded explanatory titles).

As for the subject of this thread, is it not the same or very similar as the one that was moved to Rant a few days ago?; profile hidden during voting. Apologies if wrong, and although that thread turned unfortunately into a 'rant', considering it was so recent, I didn't see a link to it anywhere in this thread. Except for now.

edit: ok the 'title' is not the same, but the 'age old issue' was certainly raised again, just like it is/will be in this thread.

Message edited by author 2005-11-27 00:28:37.
 11/27/2005 12:37:12 AM · #24
Wasn't trying to belittle you in any way Macrothing- there were probably 15 commenters who didn't see it. I just thought it was funny that you suggested putting an image of a cow in there. ;-)
 11/27/2005 12:47:20 AM · #25
I got no qualms about PM'ing someone during a challenge. I almost always preface it with "don't change your vote" and then go on to say whatever I felt I wanted to say. Usually it's just discussion about the picture.

I'm willing to relook at photos if someone PMs me, but I rarely change my vote. I think once or twice I have totally misjudged something and felt it was my error and not theirs. Still, whoever mentioned that a 2 point bump makes about zero difference in a 300 vote challenge is quite right...
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