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11/10/2005 05:40:59 PM · #51 |
With no disrespect to anyone out there, but I for one would like a REAL, point for pointt, line by line, critique.
I am not getting the feedback that I desperatly want in this, or other sites.
The only feedback I get is when I take my work to a camera man, or a Director of Photography within the industry I work in, and get the critique I am looking for. This is very impracticle for a whole lot of reasons, mainly, these are busy people.
A seperate jury of photographers that have shown their ability to comment beyond "I like it" or "I hate it" is very welcome to me. How can an artist grow if there is no indepth, detailed comments?
I need another drink.
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11/10/2005 05:44:04 PM · #52 |
This reminds me of another web site where I used to post photos, dpcontest/dpreview where every week (or so) a number of people would volunteer to judge the submissions. The DPC way seemed more appealing to me, as everyone would have a say, and the result would be less variable (theoretically) based on the averaging among 4-5 hundred people. With the juried judging, you may satisfy their taste, which is completely different from the majority.
I still think that it is a great experiment, but changing the structure of DPC process would not be what I would like. I'd go as far as adding the catrgory in the voting results next to commenteers' average and voters with/without cameras: jury voters average!
Then we could ask for a couple of volunteers for each challenge - they would do nothing different except commit to voting on all instead of on 20% of the entries.
WHat do you think? |
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11/10/2005 05:45:01 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by wavelength:
correct me if I'm wrong, but we're getting into a shallow attempt to prove that the voting process is a sham, instead of an interesting new feature/contest.
please tell me that I'm wrong on that, because I don't want to have that nagging at me. |
You are wrong. The DPC voting process is not a sham. |
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11/10/2005 05:45:08 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by swinging_johnson_v1:
I need another drink. |
I'll join you in that. This whole episode is making me feel like a drink, big-time... Especially when it escalates to the point where someone is intimating very strongly that Setzler's motive in this was to thumb his nose at the "unwashed masses" of voters. I simply KNOW that's not the case...
I was looking forward to this, I was...
R. |
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11/10/2005 05:46:45 PM · #55 |
| I'm having a hard time seeing how you can reliably compare (statistically) samples as widely variant in size as 5 and 275. |
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11/10/2005 05:47:04 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by keegbow:
A lot of things have changed since I paid my membership some I agreed with some I didn't. I don't think that is a valid reason not to experiment an idea. |
I think it's valid for people not to be forced to be part of an experiment when all they want to do is partake in the Nov Free Study. I think John recognized this point.
However that does not mean that the experiment shouldn't go forward under altered terms.
Originally posted by keegbow:
But really the whole idea is not foreign to this site, currently anyone can comment on photos, put them in forums and discuss them, tell everyone how and why they voted after the challenge etc etc. This is what a juried contest would do but in a more structured way. |
What has been proposed in this case is a far cry from the kind of discussions we have had about challenge entries and challenges results in the past. I don't think there should be any arguement on that point.
Originally posted by keegbow:
I agree also with e301 but this can be avoided to some extent if the jury were unknown.
But perhaps some members do all ready submit images that they know are not going to win a popular poll. These members probably would rather have an appraisel from an esteem member as in a juried challenge. |
That's a pretty big assumption on your part but even if it were true it does not take into account what e301 said. People would select different types of images to enter if they were going to be juried than if they were aiming at the normal dpc voter crowd. |
This could happen at anytime with or without anyone's permission or knowledege, no one is being forced into anything, when you submit to a challenge the image is up for public scurtiny.
I see little difference in what is being proposed and some of the post in the forums after a challenge. How many times do you see people asking why they received such a low score and then members openly critique the image and inform them what they scored the image. As I stated before the juried system is just more structured.
No big assumption at all how many times have you seen people stating that they don't care about the score as long as they are happy with the image and they receive comments. So what if people would select a different photo for a juried challenge does that matter to anyone it would be their choice. |
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11/10/2005 05:50:11 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by wavelength:
correct me if I'm wrong, but we're getting into a shallow attempt to prove that the voting process is a sham, instead of an interesting new feature/contest.
please tell me that I'm wrong on that, because I don't want to have that nagging at me. |
You are wrong. The DPC voting process is not a sham. |
Well, then I guess I'm just wondering what has you so Curious to compare the results.
I'm relieved that it is not your intent, but I just had a nagging feeling, like I said.
Bear: I would look forward to this too, but in an official capacity not in conjunction with another challenge, precisely to avoid the nay-sayers that would use the results for no good and more griping about the voting process, regardless of John's original intent.
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11/10/2005 05:52:34 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by keegbow:
I see little difference in what is being proposed and some of the post in the forums after a challenge. How many times do you see people asking why they received such a low score and then members openly critique the image and inform them what they scored the image. As I stated before the juried system is just more structured.
No big assumption at all how many times have you seen people stating that they don't care about the score as long as they are happy with the image and they receive comments. So what if people would select a different photo for a juried challenge does that matter to anyone it would be their choice. |
That pretty well sums it up for me. Setzler asked the community to seelct 5 respected members of themselves for an experiment. The experiment consists (or would have consisted) in these 5 "jurors" announcing their votes and explaining why they felt the way they did. Just more grist for the mill, and an interesting project.
I can't understand what the fuss is about, really. Except that John was upfront about it, maybe. That might have been his mistake.
Face it, any 5 of us could get together privately and do this on our own, and post up our "results" as a discussion thread, and who could possibly complain? Ot have we deviated so far from our critical roots that once the community-at-large has spoken, individual subsets of the community aren't allowed to have, and express, a different perspective?
Robt. |
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11/10/2005 05:52:45 PM · #59 |
Please stop! Your making my head hurt and I'm having flashbacks to my working days. LOL
This is a reminder of what happens when you make everyone feel good by having a committee decide how something should be done. You get a result that everyone felt good about participating in but no one is happy about.
John had a good idea and was willing to do the work and carry it out. Then came the committee with why they do not like the idea and then ideas on how to fix it and ideas on how to make it better â€Â¦Ã¢€Â¦Ã¢€Â¦Ã¢€Â¦
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11/10/2005 06:03:47 PM · #60 |
| I'm only commenting to say I like the idea. I see the thread is taking turns in every way possible, but if something like this is going to happen, please count me in! |
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11/10/2005 06:04:31 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
Face it, any 5 of us could get together privately and do this on our own, and post up our "results" as a discussion thread, and who could possibly complain? Ot have we deviated so far from our critical roots that once the community-at-large has spoken, individual subsets of the community aren't allowed to have, and express, a different perspective?
Robt. |
For the record, I like the idea, but think that the nay-sayers would get ahold of the results, and use them for no good. Whether anyone cared about those rantings is another discussion alltogether.
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11/10/2005 06:19:39 PM · #62 |
Okay, before everyone lets the thread die, what is wrong with the added idea to make this a special member challenge?
I think this would be a great addition, and something interesting to compete in. It would alleviate the "comparitive sample" objections, and still allow for some great fun.
I think it'll work.
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11/10/2005 06:20:14 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by wavelength:
For the record, I like the idea, but think that the nay-sayers would get ahold of the results, and use them for no good. Whether anyone cared about those rantings is another discussion alltogether. |
They do that anyway, anytime anyone deviates from their perceived "norm"... And there's a lot of separate "norms" in here (some normas too, I think) so we see a LOT of naysayers. There's absolutely nothing we can do that won't exercise SOMEBODY's sense of outrage. That's life in a heterogenous community.
R. |
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11/10/2005 06:22:30 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
That's life in a heterogenous community.
R. |
I thank god every day that I am part of this community. Actually, I am a flaming hetero.
I've been drinking, again.
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11/10/2005 06:35:02 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by swinging_johnson_v1:
I thank god every day that I am part of this community. Actually, I am a flaming hetero. |
I'm secretly a lesbian in a man's body. :o)
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11/10/2005 06:55:18 PM · #66 |
Reactions to things like this always make me realize I'm hanging around the wrong site...
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11/10/2005 07:02:07 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by Brent_Ward:
Reactions to things like this always make me realize I'm hanging around the wrong site... |
Jeez, it was just an honest concern. I wasn't trying to kill the idea and drive people away from the site.
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11/10/2005 07:04:19 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by wavelength:
Originally posted by Brent_Ward:
Reactions to things like this always make me realize I'm hanging around the wrong site... |
Jeez, it was just an honest concern. I wasn't trying to kill the idea and drive people away from the site. |
I wasn't talking about you specifically. ;o)
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11/10/2005 07:09:34 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by Brent_Ward:
I wasn't talking about you specifically. ;o) |
yeah, you were just talking about that guy whose nick starts with w, and is a squeaky wheel half the time. wink wink, nudge nudge. ;-)
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11/10/2005 07:11:48 PM · #70 |
Having a special members only challenge for this is one way to go, for sure. I'd definitely participate.
With that said, one small thing that bothers me a little is the presumption that the jury would serve as an elite group, telling the general population of voters where they "went wrong" in choosing the winners and proposing alternate "real" winners. This is especially true if the juried winners were displayed on the front page with the voted winners. To me, it would quite possibly diminish the win of those who got the popular vote. While I freely admit that I likely have no chance in winning either side, I'd hate to see anyone have hurt feelings over it.
One the best aspects about DPC is the education it provides through the challenge competitions and resulting discussion. One of the things that I find so attractive here is the spirit of using challenges to improve, and finding education through competition. While what we do here is generally based on a weekly challenge, there are several hundred other photo competitions that don't have such strict time requirements. One of my favorite experiences of the last year was when I posted a photo here in a forum thread, got encouragement to submit it elsewhere, and then it went on to win third place in another photo competition.
What if the focus of the jury was not to select "real" winners, but to suggest other great shots that should be entered elsewhere -- like a local camera club competition or even another on-line site? What if this were set up as one of those "DPC Mentorship" threads? Let it function for awhile side-by-side with normal operations. If it becomes a popular feature, then the admins could set aside coding time to make it one of the benefits of membership.
Just some thoughts... |
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11/10/2005 07:12:37 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by wavelength:
Originally posted by Brent_Ward:
I wasn't talking about you specifically. ;o) |
yeah, you were just talking about that guy whose nick starts with w, and is a squeaky wheel half the time. wink wink, nudge nudge. ;-) |
I was more referring to all the people who complained about being forced to be judged in a contest they already entered for judging. Makes a lot sense to me... :P
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11/10/2005 07:29:13 PM · #72 |
Would the jurists have entries in the challenge they were judging?
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11/10/2005 07:52:42 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Would the jurists have entries in the challenge they were judging? |
I never got far enough along to disclose the details of the jury. It's irrelevant now. |
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11/10/2005 07:58:50 PM · #74 |
How many forum members does it takes to change a light bulb?
1 to change the light bulb and to post that the light bulb has been changed
14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently
7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs
1 to move it to the Lighting section
2 to argue then move it to the Electricals section
7 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs
5 to flame the spell checkers
3 to correct spelling/grammar flames
6 to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb" ... another 6 to condemn those 6 as stupid
2 industry professionals to inform the group that the proper term is "lamp"
15 know-it-alls who claim they were in the industry, and that "light bulb" is perfectly correct
19 to post that this forum is not about light bulbs and to please take this discussion to a lightbulb forum
11 to defend the posting to this forum saying that we all use light bulbs and therefore the posts are relevant to this forum
36 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique and what brands are faulty
7 to post URL's where one can see examples of different light bulbs
4 to post that the URL's were posted incorrectly and then post the corrected URL's
3 to post about links they found from the URL's that are relevant to this group which makes light bulbs relevant to this group
13 to link all posts to date, quote them in their entirety including all headers and signatures, and add "Me too"
5 to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy
4 to say "didn't we go through this already a short time ago?"
13 to say "do a Google search on light bulbs before posting questions about light bulbs"
1 forum lurker to respond to the original post 6 months from now and start it all over again.
Well... sometimes it sounds like us :)
Message edited by author 2005-11-10 20:01:36.
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11/10/2005 08:08:27 PM · #75 |
| And one to make a joke out of the entire concept. |
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