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DPChallenge Forums >> Tips, Tricks, and Q&A >> Shooting Quality B&W
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 10/18/2005 09:48:06 AM · #1
Does anyone have advice on what makes a great Black and White picture versus just an average one?
 10/18/2005 09:54:41 AM · #2
having the correct balance of shadows and highlights... not having too deep of shadows and not having too blown out of highlights
 10/18/2005 10:23:49 AM · #3
Gee, I was hoping for more responses to this thread because I want to know too!

Getting a black and white that really works is so hard for me. Others seem to be able to spit them out like seeds, but I can chew on my images for hours and they can still come out looking dull.

I would like to offer the following image for experiment.



It's converted directly from a RAW file that I shot at a photo workshop this past weekend... no post processing done yet. When I took this image I felt that that there a very nice black and white hiding in there, but have yet to be able to pull it out.

Anyone handy with B&W feel free to give it a go. Or if you feel there is no good B&W in there, help me understand that as well.

(hope you mind the potential thread hijack Qb :)
 10/18/2005 10:46:26 AM · #4
I tried this



and this:

10/18/2005 10:48:34 AM · #5
but I don't think that this picture is good for b&w, too much going on with the textures and depth all together.
 10/18/2005 10:48:57 AM · #6
Use the channel mixer set to monochrome. This is one of the best ways to do this. It's the way I always use.
 10/18/2005 10:58:20 AM · #7
Originally posted by jfriesen:
but I don't think that this picture is good for b&w, too much going on with the textures and depth all together.


Are simplier pictures better candidates for B&W?
 10/18/2005 11:04:44 AM · #8
Thanks jfriesen, I appreciate your efforts (I like them both) and your honesty in saying that you just don't feel the image is a good B&W choice.

And thx MeThos, I'm familiar with about every way under the sun to get a black and white out of PS... the difficulty lies in getting good ones :)

Channel Mixer was employed, as was a little dodge and burn, to get this.



Which, to me, looks about as flat and boring as a cast iron skillet. Of course, it's the fault of the user and not the tools. I like both jfriesen's versions better. His images add more of the "aura" that I percieved with this image from the start.

So I must ask, is that a diffuse glow you used there, or some other technique?
 10/18/2005 11:06:39 AM · #9
Originally posted by mcmurma:
Thanks jfriesen, I appreciate your efforts (I like them both) and your honesty in saying that you just don't feel the image is a good B&W choice.

And thx MeThos, I'm familiar with about every way under the sun to get a black and white out of PS... the difficulty lies in getting good ones :)

Channel Mixer was employed, as was a little dodge and burn, to get this.



Which, to me, looks about as flat and boring as a cast iron skillet. Of course, it's the fault of the user and not the tools. I like both jfriesen's versions better. His images add more of the "aura" that I percieved with this image from the start.

So I must ask, is that a diffuse glow you used there, or some other technique?


I would say you need to have the green channel be the highest. Try lowerinf the red channel to boost the blacks.
 10/18/2005 11:12:44 AM · #10
here's a quick try. Added yellow, no clue why...


10/18/2005 11:18:42 AM · #11
Originally posted by qbicle:
Originally posted by jfriesen:
but I don't think that this picture is good for b&w, too much going on with the textures and depth all together.


Are simplier pictures better candidates for B&W?


Yes and no. I think simpler suject matter is often easier to work with and get good results from, but I think its more about composition, shapes, and tones, and the balance and synergy (look that one up!) you are able to achieve between them.
 10/18/2005 11:19:26 AM · #12
Where's Bear when you need him??!!!
 10/18/2005 02:35:35 PM · #13
Originally posted by dahkota:
here's a quick try. Added yellow, no clue why...



Strangely enough, when I first had this image processed and printed at the workshop it was with a sepia tone--one not too far from what you have here. I do like the tone with this image, as it does give it something extra.

Still, my goal once I got home was to generate the B&W I had envisioned while standing on the riverbank. So far I have not been able to do it.
 10/18/2005 02:42:49 PM · #14
In B/W photography we work with "tonal range" as our basic building block. In color photography we also have, obviously, a range of colors to work with. In general, images of basically flat tonal range make less impressive B/W shots, and this is one of those. In color, on the other hand, you have some really nice, muted colors that enhance the sense of misitiness; one of the "indicators", visually speaking, of mistiness is the desaturation of colors.

So for me this image is a better color image than it could be B/W.

I'll take a stab at it myself a little later; gotta start my Chili Colorado right now.

Robt.
 10/18/2005 02:46:02 PM · #15
I tried to give it a go, but I couldn't fix it the way I thought you wanted it. I tried using curves first too, but after that it didn't work either.. sorry!

Message edited by author 2005-10-18 14:47:11.
 10/18/2005 02:46:19 PM · #16
i find images that rely on patterns and textures to be more effective in black and white. some photos the comp seems secondary to the color, when the color is secondary to the comp b/w works well. thats my vague general opinion.
 10/18/2005 02:50:13 PM · #17
I can't help you on converting to B/W but maybe I can suggest an alternative for the image you have posted here.

I took the below image in Tennesse hoping for a good sunrise (I was about 20 minutes too late to get the good stuff) and while playing with it in RAW I converted the lighting setting to Tungsten and got this effect that I really like.



I really think this works well with this type of image, maybe cause of the fog, not sure. Might work for yours too. I know it isn't b/w but I don't every image has a b/w option really.

good luck
 10/18/2005 02:50:32 PM · #18


Taken yesterday as an experiment. Channel Mixer, Selective color tweak, tiny bit of burning.
 10/18/2005 02:56:22 PM · #19
Originally posted by mcmurma:

So I must ask, is that a diffuse glow you used there, or some other technique?


Dupe'ed the layer and added Noise -> Median 10px and changed the opacity of the layer to 50%
 10/18/2005 02:58:40 PM · #20
I love black and whites.

I have a very simple rule of thumb about my own photography when it comes to color or black and white.

My Rule: If the color is not adding significant impact to the image, I get rid of it.

Whether or not the image has a full tonal range from black to white is purely personal preference. I happen to enjoy high contrast black and white. I wouldn't conisder THIS IMAGE to contain a full tonal range, but the image itself dictates whether or not that is acceptable. The previously posted landscape scene would not do as well without the full tonal range, because the detal throughout that photo is rather important.

Whether or not any particular photo makes a good black and white is up to the photographer who shot it. SOME PHOTOS that you woudln't expect to see in black and white make excellent images also.
 10/18/2005 03:03:27 PM · #21
my quick go of it. I have a hard time with small files like this, but here is close to what I would do if I had full res.

drake

10/18/2005 03:03:49 PM · #22
I rather like this shot and think it is well suited for B&W.

-------------Toned-------------------B&W--------------

First step was to adjust the levels, then shadows/highlights.
After conversion, some selective bluring needed to be done to reduce the pixalization along the shoreline, as well as adjusting the balck level by increasing it in selective adjustments. The conventional B&W I went one step further and brought a little more out of the trees by selective sharpening tool, dragging over areas (20%) to effectively do about the same as dodging the highlights.
 10/18/2005 03:11:07 PM · #23
Originally posted by qbicle:
Does anyone have advice on what makes a great Black and White picture versus just an average one?


I think that the primary issue is not about the technique of converting to black and white but about why you would want to make one particular picture in black and white and another in colour.

In my opinion, B&W is mostly about the mood and feel you want to communicate with your picture. As the author of this book puts it much better than I could:

"...black and white frees us from the obligation to faithfully record the world of colour, allowing us instead to make a picture about what we feel about what we see."

B&W allows you to interpret the picture as a mixture of light and shade; or as a contrast of black and white; or as a simple collection of shapes; or to give it an overall different feel - all without distracting colour getting in the way. It allows you to get away from simply reproducing reality to interpreting it and focusing the viewer's attention on limited elements of your choosing. Obviously it's not appropriate for pictures where colour is the primary focus or where you are trying to reproduce a scene faithfully, but it opens up other, different opportunities.

In my opinion, colour is about reproducing a subject, B&W is about re-interpreting it. As a famous photographer once said (sorry, can't remember which one) "Colour photographs are about the subject. B&W photograohs are about the photographer"

Message edited by author 2005-10-18 15:12:00.
 10/18/2005 03:37:44 PM · #24
Here's a color version and a B/W version. They are rough, but the pixelization involved in these manipulations at 640 pixels renders the technique questionable no matter what you do. Working from the full-size original would be much more satisfactory. These are just quick stabs, not fine-tuned at all.



Personally, I prefer the potential of this one in muted color. In any case, note the burning of foreground and especially the bright reflection in both images.

Robt.
 10/18/2005 06:51:39 PM · #25
Here's my attempt at b/w conversion.



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