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09/21/2005 11:05:23 PM · #26 |
| This topic got pretty well kicked around in this thread. Oddly no conclusion was reached. What a surprise! |
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09/21/2005 11:06:37 PM · #27 |
| The blue ribbon winner is a gorgeous shot, but it's a POV shot at best. Not a persepective shot at all, if you comply with the definition as it applies to photography. |
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09/21/2005 11:14:13 PM · #28 |
Taken from this website:
"PERSPECTIVE
Perspective refers to the relationship of imaged objects in a photograph. This includes their relative positions and sizes and the space between them. In other words, perspective in the composition of a photograph is the way real three-dimensional objects are pictured in a photograph that has a two-dimensional plane. In photography, perspective is another illusion you use to produce photographs of quality composition. When you are making pictures, the camera always creates perspective. Because a camera automatically produces perspective, many novice photographers believe there is no need to know much about it. This attitude is far from correct. When you know the principles of perspective and skillfully apply them, the photographs you produce show a good rendition of the subject's form and shape, and the viewer is given the sensation of volume, space, depth, and distance. Additionally, the photographer can manipulate perspective to change the illusion of space and distance by either expanding or compressing these factors, therefore providing a sense of scale within the picture."
Personally I don't see how the winner fails to fulfill this definition of perspective, I think it's wonderful.
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09/21/2005 11:34:06 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by ttreit:
If you were teaching a photography class, and decided to spend a day teaching on "perspective" would you use the blue ribbon as your prime example? Or would you be more likely to use the red? |
Without a doubt - the Red Ribbon :D |
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09/21/2005 11:35:42 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by ttreit:
Ok so what IS the difference between "perspective" and "point of view"? |
This thread |
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09/21/2005 11:45:07 PM · #31 |
yeah it was based on that thread that I started this one. :)
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09/21/2005 11:50:09 PM · #32 |
From a photography website Q&A:
Question: In photography, what is perspective and why is it important?
Answer: Imagine yourself standing in the middle of straight railroad tracks and looking down the tracks as they disappear into the horizon. As the tracks get further away from you, they appear to come together. This is perspective.
Leonardo da Vinci would have a much more precise definition, something like: "a formula for projecting an illusion of the three-dimension world onto a two-dimensional surface." (from Helen Gardner's awesome pair of art history books, Art through the Ages)
In photography, the term is often used when a photo clearly shows a pattern where lines or a series of objects converge at a point.
does this help?
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09/21/2005 11:54:06 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by davidus428:
From a photography website Q&A:
Question: In photography, what is perspective and why is it important?
Answer: Imagine yourself standing in the middle of straight railroad tracks and looking down the tracks as they disappear into the horizon. As the tracks get further away from you, they appear to come together. This is perspective.
Leonardo da Vinci would have a much more precise definition, something like: "a formula for projecting an illusion of the three-dimension world onto a two-dimensional surface." (from Helen Gardner's awesome pair of art history books, Art through the Ages)
In photography, the term is often used when a photo clearly shows a pattern where lines or a series of objects converge at a point.
does this help? |
Bingo!!!! |
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09/22/2005 12:14:52 AM · #34 |
Originally posted by rikki11:
In photography, the term is often used when a photo clearly shows a pattern where lines or a series of objects converge at a point.
does this help? |
Bingo!!!! [/quote]
Funny about that.......I for one see several lines that converge at a point... and YES I did consider this image as a fine example of "Perspective"... notwitstanding the fact that the lines did not have me squinting into the distance.
Ray |
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09/22/2005 12:17:23 AM · #35 |
I agree with a number of people on this thread that the blue ribbon shot does not immediately shouts "perspective" to a viewer. But the beauty of the shot makes up for what it lacks in being precisely on-challenge. It is a nature of the broad DPC audience to value beauty at least as much as being on-challenge and perhaps more, so we just have to accept it.
By the way, the yellow ribbon shot seems to me even less a perspective shot, the lines do not converge at all into any kind of vanishing point, but stay parallel all the way to the top border...
...beauty rules!
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09/22/2005 12:18:31 AM · #36 |
| I have read the definitions, and I have observed both points of view, however Im sticking with my original opinion that I don't really think the blue met the challenge. I love the photo, as a matter of fact I have added it to my favorites, but not very strong theme wise. However, I will stand corrected anytime somebody gets the strongest votes. I just accept the fact that the challenges are more pretty oriented than they are challenge oriented. Its the age old question here, which takes prioriy. Pretty vs. Theme! Pretty, always. |
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09/22/2005 12:23:22 AM · #37 |
Originally posted by ttreit:
If you were teaching a photography class, and decided to spend a day teaching on "perspective" would you use the blue ribbon as your prime example? Or would you be more likely to use the red? |
I would in all likelyhood use both... in an effort to clearly demonstrate that perspectives can and do differ.
Perspective... like beauty.... is in the eye of the beholder.
Ray |
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09/22/2005 12:29:53 AM · #38 |
You canĂ¢€™t take a two dimensional photograph and use perspective to thy to make it look three dimensional and think of it one dimensionally.
You also have to take in account that not only does lines give you perspective but light and color does as well. I think the red ribbon photograph is great but I also think the blue ribbon winner holds it own too. The blue ribbon photograph uses not only physical lines to give perspective but it uses reflective lines, color, and light.
Using the train track scenario look at the anchor chain, does it not do the same? Look at the line of the boat, physical lines and reflective, donĂ¢€™t they do the same? Now look at the colors, physical and reflective, donĂ¢€™t they do the same? Yes, they all converge just like your train track scenario.
And quoting from your post This is perspective.
Message edited by author 2005-09-22 00:31:30. |
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09/22/2005 12:44:19 AM · #39 |
Originally posted by SDW65:
You canĂ¢€™t take a two dimensional photograph and use perspective to thy to make it look three dimensional and think of it one dimensionally.
You also have to take in account that not only does lines give you perspective but light and color does as well. I think the red ribbon photograph is great but I also think the blue ribbon winner holds it own too. The blue ribbon photograph uses not only physical lines to give perspective but it uses reflective lines, color, and light.
Using the train track scenario look at the anchor chain, does it not do the same? Look at the line of the boat, physical lines and reflective, donĂ¢€™t they do the same? Now look at the colors, physical and reflective, donĂ¢€™t they do the same? Yes, they all converge just like your train track scenario.
And quoting from your post This is perspective. |
I agree Scott don't get me wrong. However, in photography, a good perspective is where convergence to a point is seen and perceived. All things 3D when translated into a 2 dimensional image have perspective. There's no doubt about that. However, do you see the convergence to a point or in this case, a vanishing point?
Out of the top 20 here are the great examples (including the Red of course):
     
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder as one mentioned. I agree. However, it seems a bit frustrating when beauty scores above an image that not only has beauty and appeal but also nails the challenge head on ;D |
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09/22/2005 01:03:45 AM · #40 |
Originally posted by rikki11:
Originally posted by SDW65:
You canĂ¢€™t take a two dimensional photograph and use perspective to thy to make it look three dimensional and think of it one dimensionally.
You also have to take in account that not only does lines give you perspective but light and color does as well. I think the red ribbon photograph is great but I also think the blue ribbon winner holds it own too. The blue ribbon photograph uses not only physical lines to give perspective but it uses reflective lines, color, and light.
Using the train track scenario look at the anchor chain, does it not do the same? Look at the line of the boat, physical lines and reflective, donĂ¢€™t they do the same? Now look at the colors, physical and reflective, donĂ¢€™t they do the same? Yes, they all converge just like your train track scenario.
And quoting from your post This is perspective. |
I agree Scott don't get me wrong. However, in photography, a good perspective is where convergence to a point is seen and perceived. All things 3D when translated into a 2 dimensional image have perspective. There's no doubt about that. However, do you see the convergence to a point or in this case, a vanishing point?
Out of the top 20 here are the great examples (including the Red of course):
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder as one mentioned. I agree. However, it seems a bit frustrating when beauty scores above an image that not only has beauty and appeal but also nails the challenge head on ;D |
I agree about the beauty vs. topic and I have alway been one that would score a beautiful OFF topic photograph low because I believe that the challenge is the main ingredient in the photograph.
But I studied both the blue and red ribbon photographs and IMO came to the conclusion that it was not beauty that made the picture. And of course everyone has there opinion (BTW, thanks everyone for being polite in this thread).
I like the photographs that you posted but they also could be in a class of Leading Lines photography.
So I believe that there are some gray area here and this time the blue had perspective and beauty which put it on top. And as I stated before I love the red ribbon picture. I love architectural photography anyway so it's down my line .
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09/22/2005 01:09:14 AM · #41 |
Originally posted by rikki11:
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder as one mentioned. I agree. However, it seems a bit frustrating when beauty scores above an image that not only has beauty and appeal but also nails the challenge head on ;D |
I do believe what I said was: "Perspective... like beauty.... is in the eye of the beholder" and it would seem unfortunate that you do not see the perspective in the winning photograph. It is there in abundance and I can assure you that "beauty" was not the sole measuring stick by which the viewing public rendered their decision.
It is indeed sad that you find this "frustrating", but your frustration would seem to be attributable to the fact that your perception of "Perspective" does not allow you to view the winning photo as indeed meeting the criteria of the challenge.
As in a myriad of things in life... this is a very subjective issue.
Ray |
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09/22/2005 01:22:30 AM · #42 |
Originally posted by ttreit:
Ok so what IS the difference between "perspective" and "point of view"? |
Since this is an educational site here are basic definitions for these terms that fit the purpose of the challenge.
Perspective:
"In art... systems of perspective are that objects in the distance appear smaller than objects close to the spectator and parallel lines appear to meet in the far distance." (Encyclopedia of the Arts)
An object in the foreground is bigger than those (same or similar) in the background. The stronger the size difference the stronger the perspective.
Point of View:
"The position from which something is observed" (American Heritage Dictionary)
By shifting your "point of view" you can use the objects to create an image with weak or strong perspective. By taking a position (point of view) very close to the foreground object you will make it look a lot bigger than the background object and will give your image a stronger perspective.
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A lot of people have mixed up definitions in this challenge and many others. When the photographer and the voter both don't understand the proper definition it messes up the voting. They enter photos that don't match or are weak in the challenge. And to make things worse, because of there ignorance, they will vote down images that are correct.
By looking up the definition and reviewing the primary meaning and all the other meanings you can better determine how to create an image that fits the challenge and a guide for voting.
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1, 3, 4 weak perspective (still great images thou)
2, 5, 7 strong perspective
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Some have confused 3d or distance as a sign of perspective. You can use perspective to help define distance but here are some other ways to create distance without perspective.
Depth of Field where the background looks out of focus or as in landscapes the distant mountains look hazy.
Color of the sky as in the Blue Ribbon winner that is darker near the photographer and sunset colors near the horizon. These are colors we associate with near and close, but are not perspective.
Looking at a photo taken with a strong telephoto lens will flatten the perspective. So we look to light and shadow sides to an object that help define a 3D shape. |
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09/22/2005 01:53:50 AM · #43 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by rikki11:
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder as one mentioned. I agree. However, it seems a bit frustrating when beauty scores above an image that not only has beauty and appeal but also nails the challenge head on ;D |
I do believe what I said was: "Perspective... like beauty.... is in the eye of the beholder" and it would seem unfortunate that you do not see the perspective in the winning photograph. It is there in abundance and I can assure you that "beauty" was not the sole measuring stick by which the viewing public rendered their decision.
It is indeed sad that you find this "frustrating", but your frustration would seem to be attributable to the fact that your perception of "Perspective" does not allow you to view the winning photo as indeed meeting the criteria of the challenge.
As in a myriad of things in life... this is a very subjective issue.
Ray |
I have to say that this is quite the interesting thread I've been a part of in a while.
Where where we?
Like I mentioned Ray, there is perspective in everything. I see the perspective but what I was commenting on was the fact that it isn't as strong as the others. You look at this beautiful image and say WOW! what lovely reflections, lovely sunset, etc. The first thing I say on some of the photos I posted below is, "you nailed this one... right on the mark and meets the challenge".
Indeed, my perception and definition of perspective as it relates to photography does not allow me to see a strong tie of the Blue with meeting the challenge.
As fulgent mentions below, I agree 100% with how he thinks 1,2 and 4 has weak perspective.
There's differences between perspective in photography and perspective in a social context. The 4th place is a great image technically and subject wise. However, this is what we refer to as social perspective.
And to quote Scott I agree about the beauty vs. topic and I have alway been one that would score a beautiful OFF topic photograph low because I believe that the challenge is the main ingredient in the photograph.
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09/22/2005 01:56:08 AM · #44 |
Originally posted by SDW65:
I like the photographs that you posted but they also could be in a class of Leading Lines photography. |
I agree Scott. But if this were the LL Challenge, Rockbruise' image would top the list. LL as it suggests leads you, in this case, to the oncoming train.
:D |
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09/22/2005 02:03:48 AM · #45 |
Originally posted by ttreit:
Sz -- first of all your picture rocked, I really like it.
But I don't understand how it meets the challenge. Those that rated it highly, can you explain how it uses "perspective to create a dramatic effect with your photograph." I just don't see it. |
Ok, finally got to answer...
"perspective to create a dramatic effect with your photograph."
1. Taking the picture as low as I could makes the perspective dramatic: look at the boat and its fixing ropes.
2. Having objects in many distances.
3. Lines.
Having water so calm makes the feel little unreal, not as typical as most commong perspective shots.
And of course, WOW factor is to win :)
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09/22/2005 02:07:24 AM · #46 |
Originally posted by sz1_:
And of course, WOW factor is to win :) |
It's a conspiracy :D LOL! |
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09/22/2005 02:07:56 AM · #47 |
Originally posted by azoychka:
It most likely was a ribbon winner because of the over use of neatimage, which strangely is the same in the colour portrait winner. Who would have guessed! As a powerful perspective image? it ain't...... |
LOL
I just used very little NeatImage. I was not even needed to do so. Just look the original.
Message edited by author 2005-09-22 02:18:07. |
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09/22/2005 02:28:15 AM · #48 |
Originally posted by SDW65:
You canĂ¢€™t take a two dimensional photograph and use perspective to thy to make it look three dimensional and think of it one dimensionally.
You also have to take in account that not only does lines give you perspective but light and color does as well. I think the red ribbon photograph is great but I also think the blue ribbon winner holds it own too. The blue ribbon photograph uses not only physical lines to give perspective but it uses reflective lines, color, and light.
Using the train track scenario look at the anchor chain, does it not do the same? Look at the line of the boat, physical lines and reflective, donĂ¢€™t they do the same? Now look at the colors, physical and reflective, donĂ¢€™t they do the same? Yes, they all converge just like your train track scenario.
And quoting from your post This is perspective. |
This sums it up. Ecactly what I think.
And about "pretty" versus "in topic": I surely know that. I do not like pictures out of topic! Mine is not out of topic, just not as usual approach to the theme. (Too easy to use railroads for example.) Making it pretty is possible withing the topic :D
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09/22/2005 02:45:20 AM · #49 |
Well this whole thread has been interesting. Thanks everyone for keeping their heads and not picking on the winner. :)
And whether or not you think it met the challenge well, there's no doubt its a superb shot.
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09/22/2005 05:10:56 AM · #50 |
It has been commented in this thread that the "real" depiction of perspective in photography constitutes parallel lines vanishing to a point. There's at least a strong implication that the vanishing point needs to be within the frame of the image.
Accepting, for the sake of argument, that "vanishing points" and "perspective" are synonymous (or should have been) for the purposes of this challenge, I strongly disagree that the vanishing point must be within the image frame for it to work. That simply isn't true.
Further, I strongly disagree that the blue-ribon entry is not a strong example of vanishing points: if the boat had been a concrete black in the middle of the water, you'd have NO trouble seeing the receding perspective strongly expressed.
See what I mean? Perfectly straightforward use of vanishing point. It seems to me the image is VERY "perspective oriented". Imagine it shot from just as low but much further back with a more-telephoto lens: the perspective would be MUCH less obvious. This is pretty elementary in my mind.
That the photographer ALSO incorporated a "unique perspective" (i.e. point-of-view) is a bonus, so to speak. The image works at BOTH levels of the word "perspective" and, IMO, this is why it ribboned. Apart from the fact that it's drop-dead gorgeous, of course.
Granted, there are "better" mechancial or technical depictions of "perspective" in this challenge (including my shot, which finished down in the 100's) but since when are the challengers rewarded solely on the basis of their TECNICAL understanding/depiction of the topic?
sz1 followed the topic EXACTLY; he vreated an image that uses perspective (2 different kinds of it even) to create visual impact. I think this is easily the "best" on-topic photograph in the challenge.
"That's my story and I'm sticking to it!"
Robt.
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