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09/20/2005 02:41:32 PM · #1 |
warning: semi rant
*sigh*
All this talk about critiquing photos is interesting, but it sure is discouraging for someone who just joined the critique club.
Do I use technical terms or not. Do I sugar coat or not. Am I a newbie who doesn't know what I am talking about or am I not. Do I emote or not.
I'm so confused I don't know what to say about anything anymore. I thought I had something that worked for me, but now I'm not so sure...
*sigh*
edit for the smileys rex so nicely showed us how to do
Message edited by author 2005-09-20 14:44:42. |
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09/20/2005 02:44:13 PM · #2 |
I suggest all commentors go and get the same Heavy Duty Rhino Skin suit that I recommend for recipients of comments.
Just remember "To thine own self be true". |
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09/20/2005 02:44:20 PM · #3 |
Hi pidge - don't be discouraged. I've only been around for a little over a month. For me, I try to tell people what I like or don't like, or if I wonder what it would look like froma different angle or maybe cropped differently - that kind of stuff. Some photos evoke feelings and I tell people that too. Just be yourself, but more importantly have fun and learn by doing. :-)
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09/20/2005 02:48:42 PM · #4 |
Originally posted by pidge:
Do I use technical terms or not. Do I sugar coat or not. Am I a newbie who doesn't know what I am talking about or am I not. Do I emote or not.
I'm so confused I don't know what to say about anything anymore. I thought I had something that worked for me, but now I'm not so sure...
*sigh*
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Say what you know and what you feel and you can't miss.
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09/20/2005 02:49:25 PM · #5 |
You critique how you want to. Everyone's critiquing style is different. But there's some commonalities among them. Critiquing does not entail sugarcoating, and quite frankly, it's a process that many people can't go through, because it's rare to be unscathed by a real critique. It evalutes the good, bad, and ugly, and many people are afraid of hearing it, because what we do is such a personal thing, and hearing anything 'negative' hurts. But that's not to give someone permission to be rude or condescending either. You can give a critique without being an ass.
Critiquing considers the art, it includes the technical side as a mean of achieving that art. I wrote something a couple years ago on DeviantART titled CRITIQUE: //www.deviantart.com/deviation/3819364 Though it was intended for that website, it certainly applies to other audiences on thet 'net, and maybe it can help out. There's also some links to other guides to commenting and critique that aim to be helpful. If they're not helpful, well then you can just slap me around. :)
Message edited by author 2005-09-20 14:51:31.
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09/20/2005 02:50:55 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Say what you know and what you feel and you can't miss. |
I thought you (in your other thread) said we shouldn't use technical terms in a critique? |
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09/20/2005 02:54:08 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by pidge:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Say what you know and what you feel and you can't miss. |
I thought you (in your other thread) said we shouldn't use technical terms in a critique? |
That's just one method. Like I said here, if you say what you KNOW and what you FEEL, you can't miss.
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09/20/2005 02:58:03 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by pidge:
edit for the smileys rex so nicely showed us how to do |
Um...your smiley is broken (or perhaps his mouth is upside down). ;0) |
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09/20/2005 04:00:56 PM · #9 |
I think one of the key things in offering a critique is NOT to tell what you might have done differently. I think you take the artist's goals into account and then tell what helped achieve those goals and what didn't help. If you explain how you would have done, it becomes about your vision and not the artist's.
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09/20/2005 04:09:50 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by Nusbaum:
I think one of the key things in offering a critique is NOT to tell what you might have done differently. I think you take the artist's goals into account and then tell what helped achieve those goals and what didn't help. If you explain how you would have done, it becomes about your vision and not the artist's. |
That seems nice enough, but I don't necessarily agree with it. Some of the greatest lessons that I have learned came from those who told me how they would have done it.
I say we all get our rhino skin suits on and quit trying to tell everyone how to comment. There are some tutorials on constructive criticism; and that's a good reference point. But all of these threads about commenting seem a little self-defeating IMHO. |
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09/20/2005 04:19:13 PM · #11 |
Once upon a time there was an old man, a little boy, and a donkey. They decided to go to town one day. They all started out walking, and someone commented, "Isn't that foolish? They have a perfectly good ride, yet they are walking? The old man, figuring it was too far for the little boy to walk decided put him on the donkey. Things were fine for a while, then they passed someone who whispered, "Look at that. That is just typical of hte younger generation. Taking it easy while that old man walks."
Now, this bothered the young boy because he cared for the old man, so he got off and let the him ride. Sure enough, a little further, they heard, "Look at that, making that poor child walk four or five steps for every one of the donkey's that the old man could walk in one or two."
Now, this perplexed the old man and the boy, so they got off and decided to both ride the donkey. Yep, later someone commented, "That poor animal. It struggles along carrying two perfectly strong men who could be walking. Can you believe that?" What to do? They decided to carry the donkey, but going over the bridge just before town, they tripped and the donkey fell into the river and drowned.
That's kinda how I feel about the three or four threads going on about this kind of comment and that kind of comment. Pidge, just comment how you see fit. You feel comfortable giving technical advice? Do it. I know one of the best comments I ever received, and has stuck in my mind the most was a technical one, received over two years ago. You feel comfortable giving emotional responses? Do it. Both? Do it.
Folks, in all honestly, there is no "right" way or "wrong" way to make a comment. Tell what you think of the picture. If you like it, tell the photog why. If you think it could be improved, tell them how. If they like/appreciate/listen/mark it as helpful, fine. If not, keep going, someone, somewhere will react with the emotion you want them to.
If I comment purely on the emotional end of the, I am assuming the photog meant to it that way. Either way, the viewer goes into it with preconceived notions and ideas. I believe assuming it was exactly like the photog wanted it is as "incorrect" as doing the opposite. Sometimes while shooting, I may just not think of an angle or an idea. OR I see it in my head, but can't get it. Those that comment on the technical can help me there.
I can KNOW if I like something or not, and I can KNOW that I think if it was cropped differently/exposed differently/post processed differently, I would like it better or not. As I said in another thread, if you are trying to please me, then you will know if you have succeeded or not. If you are not trying to please me (and I sincerely hope you are not), then my comments can be taken in whatever context they appear. You can think about them if you want, or not. You can mark them helpful, or not. You can pm to argue if you want, or not.
I have more I could say, but I have a hungry baby to feed. Please, don't get too wrapped up in what people want you to do. You know what you know, and you know what your opinions are. I think 90% of the photogs here appreciate the honesty and effort. Yea, 10% will complain and whine, but that is okay. They may just be having a bad day.
;)
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09/20/2005 04:37:06 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by karmat:
...You can think about them if you want, or not. You can mark them helpful, or not. You can pm to argue if you want, or not... |
Amen Sista!!! Preach it!! Can I get a Halleluiah!!!
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09/20/2005 05:37:17 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by greatandsmall:
Originally posted by Nusbaum:
I think one of the key things in offering a critique is NOT to tell what you might have done differently. I think you take the artist's goals into account and then tell what helped achieve those goals and what didn't help. If you explain how you would have done, it becomes about your vision and not the artist's. |
That seems nice enough, but I don't necessarily agree with it. Some of the greatest lessons that I have learned came from those who told me how they would have done it.
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From my experience, there is nothing "nice" about about receiving a serious critique! Having somebody give you a detailed description of how many ways you didn't achieve your goals can be painful. I do agree that 'how to' lessons are very useful, but I believe a critique is something different. Lessons teach you how to do something, a critique evaluates how well you've applied those lessons towards achieving a goal.
Originally posted by greatandsmall:
I say we all get our rhino skin suits on and quit trying to tell everyone how to comment. There are some tutorials on constructive criticism; and that's a good reference point. But all of these threads about commenting seem a little self-defeating IMHO. |
It's the critique club, not the comment club.... once again two different things. Seems I should have kept my comments to myself, but somebody did ask the question....
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09/20/2005 05:53:25 PM · #14 |
| As someone just starting out and not very experienced with ps, I like when someone tells me how they would have done it. I either agree or disagree, but often I try what they suggest on my entry and it does usually improve it. Even if they don't like the shot technically, (aperture, focus, etc.) it gives me something to think about and try. Then I can decide if that would be right for me. |
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09/20/2005 07:05:00 PM · #15 |
I use my (npw very occasional) contributions to the Critique Club as a form of letting off steam. It allows me to say what I think, unhindered by ridiculous considerations; basically, my attitude is that if someone has asked for that critique, then I feel liberated to speak my mind. too many people check that box as an automatic reflex, and if a few get offended and stop doing it then that's just fine.
E |
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09/20/2005 07:53:01 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by Nusbaum:
It's the critique club, not the comment club.... once again two different things. Seems I should have kept my comments to myself, but somebody did ask the question.... |
Thanks for making that distinction. Sorry to offend you.
You are absolutely right; Critique club and comments are not the same. I guess my perspective is a little different. Some of my art instructors included suggestions in their critiques. Although it may have been wrong for them to do, I personally found it a valuable part of my learning experience. Outside of the educational setting, I can understand how it might be unwanted.
I just chafe at the thought of making rules for what Critique Club can, or cannot say. Once everybody pitches in, there wouldn't be much left. |
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09/20/2005 07:56:55 PM · #17 |
Critique the picture. That's it. Critique it technically, critique it emotionally, critique it politically or religiously. Just give it a critique and move on. Nobody will notice it anyways.
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09/20/2005 08:26:48 PM · #18 |
I also joined the critique club about a week ago. In the "official" critiques I have left since then, I have been as detailed and meticulous as possible (remember Lester Bangs' advice to young William Miller in "Almost Famous," "be honest and unmerciful."). Well, I hope I have not been unmerciful, but I've not held back in saying what I like and what I see as flaws and how they might have been corrected.
I find that as I comment deeply on pictures, I'm learning to be a disciplined thinker about photography, and I'm finding myself to be energized to go out and put some of my own advice into practice.
Does commenting deeply make you a better photographer?? I like to think it does.
I'll let you know when I find out for sure. |
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09/20/2005 09:13:02 PM · #19 |
Heh, thanks everyone.
Ok, off to go do some critiques *my* way, as seem to be the general advice. Oh wait, I have school work to do. I will get to some critiques though. At one point I was just ready to quite the CC. Since I'm relatively new in photography, and have a technical thinking mind, I felt as though critiques I give are somehow not useful. But I digress life goes on and poeple who live(d) in New Orleans have it way worse than I.
There, that better thatcloudthere? |
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09/20/2005 11:11:22 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by greatandsmall:
Originally posted by Nusbaum:
It's the critique club, not the comment club.... once again two different things. Seems I should have kept my comments to myself, but somebody did ask the question.... |
Thanks for making that distinction. Sorry to offend you.
You are absolutely right; Critique club and comments are not the same. I guess my perspective is a little different. Some of my art instructors included suggestions in their critiques. Although it may have been wrong for them to do, I personally found it a valuable part of my learning experience. Outside of the educational setting, I can understand how it might be unwanted.
I just chafe at the thought of making rules for what Critique Club can, or cannot say. Once everybody pitches in, there wouldn't be much left. |
I wasn't offended and you do make a good point about not making rules for the critique club. What I was worried about, and see many time on the Internet, is young photographers who ask for critiques and get lots of advice on exactly how they should shoot. In an academic setting you have instructors that are usually there to teach and motivate. On the internet there is a broad range of opinions being offered and the sources can be amazing good as well as amazingly bad. I was hoping to encourage the idea that we teach young photographers the skills and help them develop their own artistic vision. The goal was not to contrain... in fact it was the opposite. I want more photographers like Joey Lawrence showing us the world through their eyes.
Sorry if my initial response seemed a bit curt. I shouldn't reply while in the office and under the influence of work.
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09/20/2005 11:18:22 PM · #21 |
i didnt read this whole post, but bottom line is, if you think it sucks then say so and say why it sucks. if your not sure say that.
if they asked for a critique give it to them, and if they dont like it then they dont need to have the box checked. any photographer is gonna get burned before they get better, thats what a critique is all about... so better now than later...so go ahead and critique some honestly. |
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09/21/2005 01:31:48 PM · #22 |
sorry for the late post, but I just saw this.
I'm agreeing with the people who say do it your way. I try to mention the lighting and how I personally feel about it, and if I don't feel so good about it, mention how the lighting could have been to please me. I mention placement of the subjects, and how I feel about them, and again, if I personally would prefer the subject no in the center of the photo, I mention that. same with focus, dof, etc. While I talk about the technical aspects, it's more of a 'I liked it because' or 'I didn't like it because and *this* would have been better for me'.
I make sure to note that everything is just my opinion. In photography there really aren't any rules. there is no one way to do something.
Now, if the photographer says that they were going for x look, and they have achieved x look, even if I don't personally like it, I will state that.
HOWEVER...99% of the time, we can really only offer our personal opinion since the photographer didn't mention ANY details of what they were trying to achieve, what they had in mind and how they did it. SO, I say that if they don't want to offer THEIR technical info, then they must not want to hear technical info.
All help is appreciated. 410 photos waiting your crit.
(we did around 200 photos since the 17th, so keep up the great work CC!) |
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