Bush, USA, Iraq, Hurricane... - DPChallenge Forums

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

09/08/2005 12:57:37 PM · #301

Originally posted by bcoble:

1)The altimate responsibility of survival is the responsibility of the individual. How can anyone blame someone for there decission to stay put. I dont care if your poor or not. If your bed ridden all it would have taken was a phone call to get out. The people that stayed made the decission to stay put and you cannot blame anyone else for that.

How easy do you think it would be to walk (with your kids) from New Orleans to Houston? Just a phone call, to whom? A taxi? And pay them with what. I'm sure the bedridden hospital and nursing home patients who drowned in their beds would have been happy to make that call, if they could have -- many of these are people who have been legally declared not responsible for themselves, and their affairs (and lives) have been placed in the hands of others.

Sorry, this part of your comment makes no sense ...

srdanz

Canon EOS-5D Mark IV

Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM

09/08/2005 01:10:48 PM · #302

I just realized that I missed big this time... just because I wasn't thinking. Knowing that there is a certain company with an exclusive right to contracts in cases like this one, I could have made a little $$$ in the past week.

Check out the stock price of the companu with the symbol some company in the past week. Check out the jump on the Monday morning after Katrina hit, and check out the trend since then.

Wall Street has no heart. Just brutal truth.

bcoble

Olympus E-300 EVOLT

Olympus 14-45mm f/3.5-5.6 Zuiko Digital ED

09/08/2005 01:19:50 PM · #303

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by bcoble:
1)The altimate responsibility of survival is the responsibility of the individual. How can anyone blame someone for there decission to stay put. I dont care if your poor or not. If your bed ridden all it would have taken was a phone call to get out. The people that stayed made the decission to stay put and you cannot blame anyone else for that.

How easy do you think it would be to walk (with your kids) from New Orleans to Houston? Just a phone call, to whom? A taxi? And pay them with what. I'm sure the bedridden hospital and nursing home patients who drowned in their beds would have been happy to make that call, if they could have -- many of these are people who have been legally declared not responsible for themselves, and their affairs (and lives) have been placed in the hands of others.

Sorry, this part of your comment makes no sense ...

Of course the people in the jail, hospitals, rehab centers ect are different. The responsibility goes to the management of the facility. I am talking about the people in there homes.

Now if I was told I was going to possibly die if I stay, I guarantee I will find away to get out! I am not going to stay there and blame it on I have children, my foot hurts, ect. When your life is in danger I am confident that you could get out if you really wanted too. How many people said they tried to get out but no one was there to help? I am sure there were methods and available sources to get out of the town.

Neighbors should look out for there neighbors. There will be that exception of that individual that had no clue to what was happeneing.
A process needed to be inplace to accomodate those individuals. Local and state government is where the process begins.

I am actually tired of the left wing blaming the federal government for any and all breakdown of procedures. This is a local and state government issue.

srdanz

Canon EOS-5D Mark IV

Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM

09/08/2005 01:37:19 PM · #304

I posted this to another thread recently, but it is a perfect answer to bcoble's post; you belong to the 98% I talked about below. Just hope that you never get into situation to need help from any level of government. We live in the highly individualized society (oxymoron right here), and the degree of alienation is like nothing I've seen or read about in my life.

I'm off to buy some HAL stock. If I have to live with it, I might as well profit from it. Congress is to approve another gazzilion of $$$ for the relief, of which at least some will end up there...
-Serge

You can't blame the gov't. Yes, it could have acted better, faster, etc. but you can't blame it for what's happening. I came to this great country from a war-torn area, and the situation I left at home has a lot in common with the situation people in NO are facing today. Only it lasted for 4 years back home, not a couple of days.

One problem we face here is that US did not have a major crisis on its soil, such as war, since 1860s, and nobody remembers that any more. The wars make you stronger, and teach you how to behave when there is no gov't or other entity to guide you and direct you and tell you what to do.

The US concept is great, as long as everything functions well and everyone has money. It is money-based concept. AS long as you have the money, and as long as there are places to buy things, everyone is more or less happy. We bitch about gas prices go up and that is the biggest problem. There is still gas to be purchased, only at a higher cost. So its just a reason for rant, not a major life disruption.

The government here is not responsible for much, such as health care, etc. It is all done on a private/volunteer level. Things are done in a commercially feasible manner. There is no waste of money anywhere. Social and human is placed behind economically feasible and profitable. And all that is OK and great - look at all prosperity - until something like this hits us. Then, we all wish we had government-run and unified law enforcement, unified communication networks, unified health care because in the situations like this one it would have worked much better. The same way the retirees would prefer that the pensions are higher when they retire, while they would object to every tax $$$ they have to pay while working.

But, for the remining 98% of the US, the current system works much better, and that's why it will remain this way. We may call for one party to step down and other will ascend to the throne, but nothing in essence will change.

So, wait a couple of days, the poor people of Gulf coast will fall into oblivion, as another news tramples over this one - just as with any other bad thing that happened in this world in the past.

So, rant on. Nothing will change because it is not feasible and it is not the will of the majority. It is just a rational thinking on the part of minority.

my thoughts are with the people of the Gulf. Stay strong and don't wait for the others to help you - I know it does not work that way. Not even here.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

09/08/2005 01:37:24 PM · #305

Originally posted by bcoble:

I am actually tired of the left wing blaming the federal government for any and all breakdown of procedures. This is a local and state government issue.

Right, pass the buck. The purpose of (our) government is to provide for the general welfare, to provide a (supposedly) non-profit methed for citizens to pool their resources in times of emergency, kind of like a mutual insurance company but with actual "policyholder" control.

If government is so evil, how come so many of these guys find themselves getting paid by it, over and over and over ...?

Olyuzi

Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX7

Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH

09/08/2005 01:48:04 PM · #306

Originally posted by RonB:

The last article derides FEMA Director Brown by pointing out that his last "private sector" job was running horse shows. Why his last privat-sector job is mentioned is not clear. But it is inconsistant to mention it without pointing out that his predecessor under Clinton, Jame Lee Witt, held, as HIS last private-sector job, running a Construction firm. Does one or the other translate into making an individual more qualified?
Note: I'm not defending Brown, just ridiculing the rhetoric of the left.

The point being that no one that has been appointed to high ranking FEMA positions by the Bush administration have any experience with emergency management. Michael Brown's experience included commissioner of judges for the horse association, an estate planning lawyer and tax lawyer. In addition, Michael Brown was asked to resign his position with the Arabian Horse Association because of excessive litigation againt the association while he was there. Other high ranking officials at FEMA were media strategists and advertising men associated with the Bush-Cheney campaign. You think these were political appointments?

On the other hand, James Lee Witt was head of FEMA under Clinton and was highly regarded by both Democrats and Republicans alike, including George W. Bush. He even cited the good work that JL Witt had done during one of the 2000 presidential debates against Gore when he said of Witt:
"You know, as governor, one of the things you have to deal with is catastrophe. I can remember the fires that swept Parker County, Texas. I remember the floods that swept our state. I remember going down to Del Rio, Texas. I have to pay the administration a compliment. James Lee Witt of FEMA has done a really good job of working with governors during times of crisis."

This is not rhetoric on the part of the left, just pointing out that the men currently running things at a very important agency are not experienced at all in emergency management.

Now if you really want to point out rhetoric just look no further than George Bush. From Iraq to Katrina, there isn't much of substance there.

Matthew

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Peleng 8mm f/3.5 Fisheye MC In M42 Mount

09/08/2005 02:09:25 PM · #307

Originally posted by theSaj:

Sadly, there is a group today which is focused on "me, me, me" instead of "we, we, we". These individuals filled with hate look on anyone of different color or skin than themselves and they "hate on them". A young white kid who never did anything (who may even be a recent immigrant from eastern europe and have no relation to the slavery of the past) to them is the enemy - for the simple reason that his skin color is white.

I agree that there is a part of society focussed on "me, me, me" that is filled with hate for differently skinned people. But I would not limit any example by suggesting that white skinned people are necessarily the target of such hatred - they are just as likely, if not more likely (in my experience), to be the perpetrators. And their response to criticism of their stance is "liberal/left wing politically correct BS".

The racial divide was quite apparent to me, as was the wealth divide. I had commented to friends that I could not conceive of the same tardiness of response had the people hit worst been white middle class, as opposed to the black poor.

09/08/2005 02:14:37 PM · #308

Originally posted by MadMordegon:

The Gov gave the "okay" the 26th and 27th. You should read the timeline that was posted above, as there is alot of misinformation going on, as usual.

Saturday, August 27
FEDERAL EMERGENCY DECLARED, DHS AND FEMA GIVEN FULL AUTHORITY TO RESPOND TO KATRINA: â��Specifically, FEMA is authorized to identify, mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency.â��

That's all nice and dandy, but FEMA is not the military. And there are certain laws that prohibit such and protect state's rights.

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

09/08/2005 02:16:17 PM · #309

Originally posted by GeneralE:

This, IMHO, is obvious a city/state issue. One cannot even reasonably expect the Federal government to know where nursing homes are. And if the city/state governments are not organized enough to direct them...then one cannot expect action.

Originally posted by Olyuzi:

On the other hand, James Lee Witt was head of FEMA under Clinton and was highly regarded by both Democrats and Republicans

Funny, I read a re-post of an old article from one of the Hurricanes during Clinton's term. One that did not cause quite as much catastrophic damage but did leave several smaller regions flooded, etc.

And the report and criticism were very akin to the current ones. Only mitimized by the fact the hurricane itself did not have quite as far reaching affect.

So Clinton's FEMA faired poorly in a smaller task. But failure in a smaller task attracks less attention.

I think any administration would fail, it's simply by how much. The greater the disaster the more failure.

It's "Man" vs "Nature"...man loses!

Message edited by author 2005-09-08 14:21:30.

LoudDog

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

09/08/2005 02:19:18 PM · #310

Originally posted by Olyuzi:

Originally posted by RonB:
The last article derides FEMA Director Brown by pointing out that his last "private sector" job was running horse shows. Why his last privat-sector job is mentioned is not clear. But it is inconsistant to mention it without pointing out that his predecessor under Clinton, Jame Lee Witt, held, as HIS last private-sector job, running a Construction firm. Does one or the other translate into making an individual more qualified?
Note: I'm not defending Brown, just ridiculing the rhetoric of the left.

The point being that no one that has been appointed to high ranking FEMA positions by the Bush administration have any experience with emergency management. Michael Brown's experience included commissioner of judges for the horse association, an estate planning lawyer and tax lawyer. In addition, Michael Brown was asked to resign his position with the Arabian Horse Association because of excessive litigation againt the association while he was there. Other high ranking officials at FEMA were media strategists and advertising men associated with the Bush-Cheney campaign. You think these were political appointments?

On the other hand, James Lee Witt was head of FEMA under Clinton and was highly regarded by both Democrats and Republicans alike, including George W. Bush. He even cited the good work that JL Witt had done during one of the 2000 presidential debates against Gore when he said of Witt:
"You know, as governor, one of the things you have to deal with is catastrophe. I can remember the fires that swept Parker County, Texas. I remember the floods that swept our state. I remember going down to Del Rio, Texas. I have to pay the administration a compliment. James Lee Witt of FEMA has done a really good job of working with governors during times of crisis."

This is not rhetoric on the part of the left, just pointing out that the men currently running things at a very important agency are not experienced at all in emergency management.

Now if you really want to point out rhetoric just look no further than George Bush. From Iraq to Katrina, there isn't much of substance there.

I'm not defending the guy or his actions, but he has done a little more in his life time the judge horses. I don't know if this qualifies him for the job and I'm not saying it does, just pointing it out.

From here: //www.fema.gov/about/bios/brown.shtm

Previously, Mr. Brown served as FEMA's Deputy Director and the agency's General Counsel. Shortly after the September 11th terrorist attacks, Mr. Brown served on the President's Consequence Management Principal's Committee, which acted as the White House's policy coordination group for the federal domestic response to the attacks. Later, the President asked him to head the Consequence Management Working Group to identify and resolve key issues regarding the federal response plan. In August 2002, President Bush appointed him to the Transition Planning Office for the new Department of Homeland Security, serving as the transition leader for the EP&R Division.

Prior to joining FEMA, Mr. Brown practiced law in Colorado and Oklahoma, where he served as a bar examiner on ethics and professional responsibility for the Oklahoma Supreme Court and as a hearing examiner for the Colorado Supreme Court. He had been appointed as a special prosecutor in police disciplinary matters. While attending law school he was appointed by the Chairman of the Senate Finance Committee of the Oklahoma Legislature as the Finance Committee Staff Director, where he oversaw state fiscal issues. His background in state and local government also includes serving as an assistant city manager with emergency services oversight and as a city councilman.

Olyuzi

Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX7

Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH

09/08/2005 02:23:47 PM · #311

Originally posted by theSaj:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by bcoble:
1)The altimate responsibility of survival is the responsibility of the individual. How can anyone blame someone for there decission to stay put. I dont care if your poor or not. If your bed ridden all it would have taken was a phone call to get out. The people that stayed made the decission to stay put and you cannot blame anyone else for that.

How easy do you think it would be to walk (with your kids) from New Orleans to Houston? Just a phone call, to whom? A taxi? And pay them with what. I'm sure the bedridden hospital and nursing home patients who drowned in their beds would have been happy to make that call, if they could have -- many of these are people who have been legally declared not responsible for themselves, and their affairs (and lives) have been placed in the hands of others.

Sorry, this part of your comment makes no sense ...

This, IMHO, is obvious a city/state issue. One cannot even reasonably expect the Federal government to know where nursing homes are. And if the city/state governments are not organized enough to direct them...then one cannot expect action.

FEMA listed a hurricane hitting NOLA number three on it's list of likely disaster locations in the US behind a terrorist attack in NYC and an earthquake in SF. FEMA had even organized and taken part in an exercise of preparedness should such a powerful hurricane hit NOLA and was well aware of the possibilities there. Michael Brown had himself declared the exercise a success. State and local authorities could not handle a disaster such as this on their own and FEMA needed to respond in a timely way.

Peleng 8mm f/3.5 Fisheye MC In M42 Mount

09/08/2005 02:31:21 PM · #312

"But I would not limit any example by suggesting that white skinned people are necessarily the target of such hatred - they are just as likely, if not more likely (in my experience), to be the perpetrators."

That's good, experience is localized. Each region differs from another. My experience is first hand. I grew up in a city. And encountered by far more racists within the african-american community than any other demographic. That is simply because of the region I lived in. Most of the whites I knew were adamantly opposed to racism. Hispanics were a whole nother ball game. From what I observed, the tendency within the hispanic community is too look down on and despise other hispanic groups. Puerto Ricans insulting/despising Mexicans. Native Spaniards & Portuguese downing the American hispanics. It's pretty weird. So much in common but so much discrimination toward each other.

Anyways, too my point...

I know for a fact, that "white skinned people" are the target of such hatred.

Yes, there are people of all color who are racist. Sadly, hate is not confined to a given ethnicity. And it is perpetrated by all of mankind.

"The racial divide was quite apparent to me, as was the wealth divide. I had commented to friends that I could not conceive of the same tardiness of response had the people hit worst been white middle class, as opposed to the black poor."

An extremely racist view you have there. Sure, perhaps if it was Beverly Hills things might have been different.

But "poverty" doesn't care if you're black and white. Oh wait, I take that back. Being in poverty AND white you have much less available to you. Just try applying for scholarships. You find you you're the wrong color for 90% them.

I will accept a "class" issue. And believe oft that is the case. The poor always suffer.

Matthew

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

09/08/2005 02:45:38 PM · #313

Originally posted by theSaj:

An extremely racist view you have there. Sure, perhaps if it was Beverly Hills things might have been different.

How does recognising a probable difference of treatment between black people and white people make me a racist (ie one who discriminates against a race of people indiscriminately - as in saying "all black people have an advantage over white people through negative discrimination policies")?

Matthew

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Peleng 8mm f/3.5 Fisheye MC In M42 Mount

09/08/2005 02:57:52 PM · #314

Originally posted by theSaj:

Yes, there are people of all color who are racist. Sadly, hate is not confined to a given ethnicity. And it is perpetrated by all of mankind.

Yep - that's what I said, in an attempt to correct your previous post. In your previous post you complained of racism, and said that the group with the "me, me me" problem, who are filled with hate, have a history of slavery and have white people as their enemy for the reason of skin colour.

IE the non-whites have the the racist "me, me me" problem and are filled with hate for white people. I find limiting accusations of racism to the non-white population distasteful.

Originally posted by theSaj:

Message edited by author 2005-09-08 15:01:07.

Judith Polakoff

Nikon D7000

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

09/08/2005 03:41:58 PM · #315

Originally posted by theSaj:

But sadly, I will agree with you that we have a major racial problem brewing. And I believe, it has been exasperated by the past 15 yrs of teaching "racial pride" in schools. Which from my own personal experience only created it's synonym "racism".

If there is a "racial problem brewing," as you put it, it has very little to do with "racial pride" being taught in school. As I see it, this is more a response to racial prejudice and inequality than a causal factor. The facts are that about 25 percent of blacks in the United States live below the poverty level, as compared to about 6 or 7 percent of whites. Unemployment is twice as high for blacks as it is for whites. Blacks who are employed on average earn about 75 percent of the wages that whites in comparable jobs earn. Blacks die at much higher rates of all the leading causes of death than whites. I don't understand how one can look at these statistics (which are available in the U.S. Census data) and not conclude that racial discrimination is systemic in the United States. Americans don't want to believe that racial inequality exists here (white Americans, that is), but I think if we observed the same conditions existing between two races anywhere else in the world, we'd certainly conclude that there was a "racial problem."

Originally posted by theSaj:

The result, the first african-american generation NOT to experience most of the crap is the one most filled with hate. Filled with hate over that which they never experienced.

They never experienced racial discrimination? And how do you know this?

Originally posted by theSaj:

Filled with hate and anger. They often fail to take advantage of opportunities presented to them and in their blind anger they fall.

They don't take advantage of opportunities? And how do you know this?

09/08/2005 04:20:11 PM · #316

Originally posted by legalbeagle:

Originally posted by theSaj:

An extremely racist view you have there. Sure, perhaps if it was Beverly Hills things might have been different.

How does recognising a probable difference of treatment between black people and white people make me a racist (ie one who discriminates against a race of people indiscriminately - as in saying "all black people have an advantage over white people through negative discrimination policies")?

Sorry, some of my quotes and comments didn't come across for some reason.

My statement declaring "An extremely racist view you have there." Was in reference to this statement by you.

Originally posted by "legalbeagle":

But I would not limit any example by suggesting that white skinned people are necessarily the target of such hatred - they are just as likely, if not more likely (in my experience)

That seems a very racist statement. (Albeit, a politically correct one.) Especially being unquantified in any manner. But essentially, what I gathered from that is the following points:

1) A white person is not allowed to point out racism perpetrated on them (I do not believe you'd have made the same objection if the statement had been made from an african-american perspective - thus IMHO it's racist.)

2) You were fine politically speaking when you said "just as likely", but when you said "more likely"...here you are saying "whites" as a whole. This is making a global determination and thus "racist".

I am actually working on hyperbole here. I do not think you statement was in fact extremely racist. However, I believe there were ways to read it as such. And I was point such out.

As for the following:

Originally posted by "legalbeagle":

IE the non-whites have the the racist "me, me me" problem and are filled with hate for white people. I find limiting accusations of racism to the non-white population distasteful.

If it were a general statement instead of applying to a specific situation, regarding the current outcry and claims that "motivations" were racist. Then yes...I would find it inappropriate. The "me, me, me" was not in reference to a "me attitude" but the use of "me" and "we" as a discriptor for division and unity.

It needs to be taken in context of my points regarding the emphasis applied in American schools on "racial pride" and afro-centrist teaching. Which I was expressing has led to an increase of racism within the particularly group.

This is a key reference element, perhaps I should have emboldened it. And the rest that follows was largely tied to this.

[quote="thesaj"Strong emphasis was put on teaching african-americanism but instead of including it within the scope it was seperated and distinguished. Instead of teaching true multi-culturalism where all cultures share their histories - it was focused on just one.[/quote]

Now, I'll be the first to admit there is a group of "me, me, me" that transcends all races. It's actually, and sadly, quite prominent in America and Western culture. But in regard to the following statement I was referencing a subset within the African-American community

"Sadly, there is a group today which is focused on "me, me, me" instead of "we, we, we"."

Which was in relation to the following dialogue regarding those who decry at every turn everything to racism. As stated in the following.

"And if anything is done, or not done to them - it is obvious that it must have occurred because of racial prejudice. And not for any other reason."

Now the fact of the matter is that this situation is by far more prevalent within the African-American community. And the anger generated by it is cast indiscrimantly ("racistly") toward others.

And the focus being on this because of related "current events" and claims made by several outspoken individuals. It was not an address of racism in general.

It was addressing a specific example of racism...

The presumption that one's actions were racially motivated simply because the individual is white. That assumption is in itself prejudiced & racist.

And although in so being, is widely given platform and wrongly tolerated in the U.S.

Although there may be an equal or even more excessive number of white racists in the nation, very little platform is given to them. Sure there are KKK members. Very little respect is given to them. The general (but no, not universal) attitude in America toward white supremacists is extemely intolerant. And rightly so...

However, toward the black racists a large platform is given and an excessive amount of liberty is granted to judge, to express their hatred, openly and without rebuke. I've stood in Times Square and listened to violent racist hatred spewed forth by the Nation of Islam on public street corners. The KKK would never be given leave to do such and would immediately be removed from the streets of Times Square.

My main point, all of the above was pointing toward the support of the following statement I made.

"In truth, until people learn to forgive it will only grow worse. In growing up, I experienced an immense amount of racism. I grew up poorer than most African-Americans I know. Now, we can either both choose to use those facts to relate to and understand one another. Or we will simply divide further apart and fill ourselves with greater hate."

Without forgiveness there is no HOPE...

There is no reconciliation without forgiveness...and there is guilt on all hands. We can bicker and dicker about where various guilt lies. And in so doing accomplish nothing. Or we can simply let go of the past and work towards a future. Train each generation of children to be less hurt and more forgiving. Seek to understand not one culture, not our own culture, but a variety of culture.

ie: I think African-Americans would benefit greatly from a study of Russian serfs and the multitudes of abuses they suffered. They would likely gain an understanding of the communist revolution that ensued and why. And find themselves not so alone in the world.

And if you're wondering, or thinking of stating about how I might benefit from having their culture shared with me. I did....have it shared...and even received benefits from doing so. But where I lived it became more of a flood and a focus for anger. And that was sad. I believe such experiences and cultural understandings must be shared "equalaterally" instead of "unilaterally". This was the entire point of multi-culturism. For decades african-americans had a unilateral education. Steps were taken to bring in african-american focused education as well. But it stopped and became a distinct focus. It should have been to bring in "all-culturalism".

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

09/08/2005 05:09:18 PM · #317

[quote]The result, the first african-american generation NOT to experience most of the crap is the one most filled with hate. Filled with hate over that which they never experienced.

They never experienced racial discrimination? And how do you know this? [/quote]

I NEVER SAID THEY DID NOT EXPERIENCE RACIAL DISCRIMINATION

I said they did not experience most of the crap [experienced by prior generations] and this is true.

They did not experience slavery, mandated segregation, and vast number of injustices their parents, grandparents and ancestors experienced.

That is not to say they have not experienced injustice. But it is the least of any generations and greatly less than it was. It still needs to progress further. My point is, although they've experienced much less than those before them did. Their hatred and anger is greater than those who suffered much greater abuse.

[quote]Filled with hate and anger. They often fail to take advantage of opportunities presented to them and in their blind anger they fall.

They don't take advantage of opportunities? And how do you know this? [/quote]

By actual observance. I am not saying these things to be racist. I am saying these things cause they grieve my heart.

I was in the classrooms. I heard young black men exclaim how whites were forcing them to go to school. After their grandparents fought so hard...many died, beaten or worse to earn them that right - and to think what they said.

There was one kid in my class. A big bully in fact. Who one day talking with him I laid into him and encouraged him to do his work. That he had an opportuntity to make a choice to alter his life. It was in his hands. Perhaps if someone gave him that talk years before. But I remember his joy the day he scored higher than the class nerd (me) on an exam. He was jumping in my face rubbing it in my face...was I angry? No....I think it was one of my happiest test grades. And I told him....see you have the ability...you need to apply yourself.

Numerous times I saw individuals express such attitudes and not take opportunities that were available to them. Guess what...it wasn't just african-americans. It was the entire ghetto culture which discouraged and disrespected education. The only difference being that the white ghetto kids can't really blame anyone but themselves for not taking advantage of what was available to them.

Now mind you, I am the first to say most african-americans have a harder struggle ahead of them than most whites. Many start a rung or two down. However, they are not alone either...there are many white, hispanic, native americans, etc. on the same rung if not lower.

There are opportunities thought to move up several rungs in that ladder. Asian immigrants often take advantage of these opportunities. I believe one of the main things preventing african-americans from taking advantage of the same opportunities is their "anger".

"If there is a "racial problem brewing," as you put it, it has very little to do with "racial pride" being taught in school."

[ From one who experienced the results of such directly...I will adamantly disagree. The more african-american youth learned of wrongs done to them without learning of wrongs done to other cultures as well. The more hatred and anger brewed and a greater desire for revenge.

The methodology was wrong. Not the intent. The intent should have been to gain understanding of diverse cultures and the sufferings and achievements of all those cultures.
]

"The facts are that about 25 percent of blacks in the United States live below the poverty level, as compared to about 6 or 7 percent of whites. Unemployment is twice as high for blacks as it is for whites."

[ I don't dispute those facts. But I believe that regardless of those facts success is still available to most who endeavor to take it. As said before one of the main contributing factors is the anger that has been brewed. This is not the only reason....no doubt. But I believe it's a strong inhibitor against progress in these areas. ]

"I don't understand how one can look at these statistics (which are available in the U.S. Census data) and not conclude that racial discrimination is systemic in the United States."

[ I don't deny there are problems. But I believe a lot of those statistics; from impoverishment, to unemployment, etc are due to other contributing factors.

ie: education (lack of) & anger

The latter brews an attitude that holds many african-americans back.

It is sad that education is not very respected in urban environments (regardless of color).

"Americans don't want to believe that racial inequality exists here (white Americans, that is), but I think if we observed the same conditions existing between two races anywhere else in the world, we'd certainly conclude that there was a "racial problem."

[ To deny that inequality exists...no. But to disagree that is is supported and or encouraged I think many would.

Many opportunities and advantages designed to help shift the balance have been provided.

I think few would look at a nation and say:

a. they give preference to them in their hiring practices
b. they make most of the scholarship funds exclusive to them
c. they offer tax, loan and business incentives to them

If I saw any foreign nation offering that, my feeling would not be one of government or system based discrimination. Sure I accept pockets of discrimination and discrimatory mindsets. I know down south there are many attitudes of prejudice.

But I believe that many opportunities are being given for african-americans to get out of that statistic. But I feel that much of the populace needs to take better advantage of the offerings.

One can talk about the poor quality of those schools. Well, those are the only schools I know of. My high school didn't even have textbooks. We had four computers for student use. (1 386, 1 Apple IIGS, 2x Radioshack TRS-80. Now mind you, this was in 1993!)

I saw numerous students achieve and numerous students fail...of ALL colors. But the number 1 distinguishing factor between the successes and failures was attitude and character. Most all of the failures regardless of skin color where what many would call "ghetto" (typified by violent, disruptive behavior, and attitude that they were owed and being "forced" to be in school).

All of the successes were those that had good character. They behaved themselves reasonably. They took advantage of opportunities and programs made available. They were civil. They may not have liked school but the performed the task at hand in order to achieve.

Some of the poorest most disadvantaged students did quite well. And those who perhaps not well off but far from the bottom never achieved. Much of it I found to be a difference of attitude. As for the poverty level. Most of the students I went to school with fell below that poverty level. But I was always amazed. Where as I got my two new pair of pants and new shoes for the year. And was laughed at and teased cause the rest was "same thing I wore last year and before" they often had elaborate sets of clothing and outfits and wore hundreds of $$$ of jewelry to class.

The issue at hand was not "means" but of "attitude"....

The ghetto mentality and attitude consumes indifferent to race or means. It simply destroys....

And no....most of the african-americans I went to school with never took advantage of the opportunities on hand.

I was once told "that's the culture" well if that's their culture...than let's blame it on the culture and not the skin color. Cause I have seen numerous african-americans succeed both in school and the business world with much respect. All of them were consistent in that they had good character and attitude and thus excelled. I've watched co-worker after co-worker be fired, passed over for raises, etc...and one thing was consistent - their attitudes and character.

Cam

Sony DSC-F717

09/08/2005 06:03:49 PM · #318

Interesting article in the Houston Chronlcle today that people here may be interested in reading.

MadMordegon

09/08/2005 06:21:28 PM · #319

Originally posted by srdanz:

Damn. And Dick Cheney still gets a yearly check from Halliburton and owns over 400,000 shares of stock. Back in the days of honestly, we would call that a conflict of interest.

I think Halliburton should change their slogan to "Making billions from human misery since 1920". A 10$ increase in the stock price from the worst natural disaster in US history...

And again I want to post this Katrina Timeline as people continue to make misinformed comments.

ClubJuggle

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

09/08/2005 06:23:56 PM · #320

Originally posted by laurielblack:

Originally posted by ClubJuggle:

Is this your own work?

If not, please cite your source.

-Terry

Are we writing research papers now like in Junior English? Let me get all my notecards and footnotes ready. Sheesh.

You're a photographer. How would you feel if you found your work posted on another web site, without your permission and without attribution?

-Terry

David Ey

Nikon D80

Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f2.8D

09/08/2005 06:30:28 PM · #321

I believe it says PROMOTE not provide. Big diference.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by bcoble:
I am actually tired of the left wing blaming the federal government for any and all breakdown of procedures. This is a local and state government issue.

Right, pass the buck. The purpose of (our) government is to provide for the general welfare, to provide a (supposedly) non-profit methed for citizens to pool their resources in times of emergency, kind of like a mutual insurance company but with actual "policyholder" control.

If government is so evil, how come so many of these guys find themselves getting paid by it, over and over and over ...?

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

09/08/2005 06:32:15 PM · #322

Originally posted by David Ey:

I believe it says PROMOTE not provide. Big diference.

The folks in charge don't seem to be in favor of that either ...

Canon EOS-60D

Canon EF-S 55-250mm f/4-5.6 IS

09/08/2005 06:32:54 PM · #323

Originally posted by ClubJuggle:

Originally posted by laurielblack:

Originally posted by ClubJuggle:

Is this your own work?

If not, please cite your source.

-Terry

Are we writing research papers now like in Junior English? Let me get all my notecards and footnotes ready. Sheesh.

You're a photographer. How would you feel if you found your work posted on another web site, without your permission and without attribution?

-Terry

No, I'm a school counselor. I take pictures for fun and stress relief, and participate on this site for the same reasons. He didn't post a picture, he typed something. You are suggesting he plagiarized that text, whether or not you know he did. I think that's pretty presumptuous.