Canned Comments Revisited - DPChallenge Forums

07/23/2002 01:10:11 PM · #26

for the past three rounds of voting i have signed all my comments and added the score i have given. i have made a point of commenting on all the 1, 2 and 3 votes i have given, as many of the 4s i can (i don''t usually get to the 5-8 range, sorry) and the 9s and 10s (because positive feedback is just as important and sometimes there are things i would consider changing even on the really high votes). i do tell people that the subject matter is not interesting to me. i usually say why and what could be done to change it (if i have an idea). i also usually comment on the photo apart from its content to say what i think technically. i wouldn''t be bringing any of my thoughts like that across with canned comments (maybe people would consider that an improvement *grin*)

what surprised me the most? i have had only one person contacting me regarding my comment and low score, and that one was really nice about it. i was convinced i''d get some ''how dare you'' comments, but i haven''t.

maybe this will encourage people to comment more on the photos that they vote low (i would be HUGELY interested why people vote my photos low, but they never seem to be the ones that leave comments). it''s not as painful as you think. and you don''t get flamed as often as you think as long as you don''t just make a stupid off-hand comment.

* This message has been edited by the author on 7/23/2002 1:09:57 PM.

07/23/2002 01:23:23 PM · #27

wow - instant results. i just got a long, constructive but critical comment. i don't know yet who left it but i'll be thanking that person on monday! :)

dwoolridge

07/23/2002 01:29:23 PM · #28

I like the idea of having the voting based on some categories, rather than
one global score. Often, I think the artistic merit of a shot outweighs
the technical shortcomings, or vice versa. Sometimes, there's a meta
statement, be it philosophical, artistic, or socio-political. If the voting
did have categories, they could be weighted differently for each challenge.
Such a system would add to the voting experience for me, but many people
just want to assign a single number to a photo, so having it so each voter
can decide on how they like to vote would be a good compromise.

crisa58

Olympus D-510 Zoom

07/23/2002 01:30:26 PM · #29

Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by Gene L.:
[i]What I like about the canned reply is that it gives license to say that a photo is technically good, but not an interesting subject. I usually refrain from such a comment because of the risk of stepping on someone's toes.

If one thinks it is inappropriate to judge a photo as interesting or not, then it could be upsetting to have their technically perfect photo judged as uninteresting. If it is stated as a valid response to a photo, then everyone knows what voters are looking for.

I agree.. I don't have a lot of support for this idea tho :(
[/i]
AUTHOR: Macedonlo de la Torre
QUOTATION: The imagination must not be given too much material. It must be denied food so that it can work for itself.

I think this goes for voting on another's imagination, too.

07/23/2002 01:46:34 PM · #30

Originally posted by crisa58:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
[i]Originally posted by Gene L.:
[i]What I like about the canned reply is that it gives license to say that a photo is technically good, but not an interesting subject. I usually refrain from such a comment because of the risk of stepping on someone's toes.

If one thinks it is inappropriate to judge a photo as interesting or not, then it could be upsetting to have their technically perfect photo judged as uninteresting. If it is stated as a valid response to a photo, then everyone knows what voters are looking for.

I agree.. I don't have a lot of support for this idea tho :(
[/i]
AUTHOR: Macedonlo de la Torre
QUOTATION: The imagination must not be given too much material. It must be denied food so that it can work for itself.

I think this goes for voting on another's imagination, too.

[/i]

I disagree when it comes to voting on art... after all, what is art? It's mainly imagination :)

07/23/2002 02:48:18 PM · #31

Hereâ��s an idea for my own idea of the ultimate voting page:

Photo and Info Goes here:

Scoring:

Rate This Photo from 1-10 on Technical Quality:

(1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10)

Technical Quality Comments Go Here

Rate This Photo from 1-10 on Subjective Quality:

(1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10)

Subjective Comments Go Here

Rate this Photo from 1-10 on Visual Impact:

(1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10)

Visual Impact Comments Go Here

Rate this Photo from 1-10 on Photographer Effort:

(1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10)

Photographer Effort Comments Go Here

Additional Comments Go Here

Total Score: Average of the 4 category votes (or weighted by any specific method required)

Voter Signature:

Would you like to provide your user ID to the owner of this photo?

(YES) (NO)

If you click yes, the photographer will know who placed this vote and comments.

Like I said, this would just be my own idea of useful feedback. Yes, I agree that it would take a few seconds longer to formulate the vote for each photo. This vote type gives the voter the opportunity to vote on specific elements of the photo and comment on specific elements. It also provides a space for additional comments. Voters that do not comment, or donâ��t wish to comment would not have to. The vote itself would provide some amount of feedback to the photographer based on the individual category scores. The voter would only be required to make 4 mouse clicks instead of 1 to place a photo vote. Making the votes available to the photographer (anonymously or not) gives feedback.

Comments on this idea?

07/23/2002 02:56:08 PM · #32

Heheh...D@mn John..you are having a real reversal here..I never would have thought you would get so specific on voting stuff based on your past comments in the forums :-)

Here is my honest to goodness opinion. We are heading in a very dangerous direction on this site.

We are starting to turn into a stock photo site of the worst and highest order.

Not only do I see voters and photographers leaning more and more on stock stuff but I see more and more people needing stock responses.

I think we just need to back off all these requirements like voting percentages and comments and let the site roll on. Lets concentrate more on the tutorials and other educational aspects and let the photo submissions, voting and comments just happen as they will.

Journey

Canon PowerShot G3

07/23/2002 02:58:37 PM · #33

I don't like the canned comments approach because it could easily degenerate into a mechanical exercise. Autool's approach is informative in a quick way. If an additional comment be added to his "ratings", power to it. There are some additional criteria that come into play as well when evaluating an image: risk (i.e. funken egg was a high risk image and that was commendable but not translated into his overall score!), technical resources available, "easy subject", and, last but not least, personal taste.

I am new at this forum and learning a lot [is that why I feel down right now? :)] Found it interesting to review some of the comments made about images that I particularly liked. For instance, I loved the workout image and was surprised that it didn't do better than it did. Several of the comments were in the vein of the image could have been better if it had been more dynamic, if a person would have been added to it, etc. I tend to like "lonely" images and saw the fact that people were excluded from the shot as adding strength to the mood of calmness that the image invoked. I have seen other images where one reviewer considered an aspect a strength but was deemed a weakness by someone else.

It is good for the photographer to get this kind of uncanned feedback because she/he is not aiming to please the whole world with his shots and gives some insight into the reasoning behind the rating. Those comments are not only educational for the photographer but also for the voters.

07/23/2002 03:00:13 PM · #34

I'm not reversing on anything.. I am just looking for a way to get some sort of feedback that is useful. That feedback does not come in the comment box.

I must not know what you mean by stock photography... I can't correlate any of this with stock photography...

07/23/2002 03:06:03 PM · #35

I like autotool's approach also. There are about two or three people here who do something similar... that approach gives me some feedback about what they do or don't like about my photo... :)

07/23/2002 03:11:06 PM · #36

The very title of the thread says it all.

Canned comments and stock photos denote a highly technical and sterile approach that feels very clean and orderly but not very personal.

Go to Fotosearch.com to get a better idea of what I mean by stock photography

07/23/2002 03:13:46 PM · #37

I know what stock photography is... i give up...

07/23/2002 03:25:43 PM · #38

Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I know what stock photography is... i give up...

Heck John, I'm not trying to be difficult..I'm just stating one guys opinion out of 2795 registered users.

I go along with whatever the majority wants. If canned responses are what folks want..I'll be happy to comply.

You being a moderator I would imagine you talk to Drew and Langdon more than most of us so you would be in a better position to know how they want the site to go.

I'm just a photgrapher around here with my own peculiar way of thinking :-) Just ignore me............

07/23/2002 03:37:10 PM · #39

Something simple becomes something complicated very quickly... I am just trying to find a way to help satisfy my own desire for feedback.

Both of these methods I have proposed here allow easy ways for feedback to be received from people who don't normally leave feedback. Granted, the feedback is not specific, but it is useful.

I will stop posting on this issue. I thought it would receive more support... these threads are filled with comments and complaints about the comments... I have not seen many suggestions for improvement of this process so I thought I would offer some ideas.

I can live without feedback...

Kimbly

Canon PowerShot G2

07/23/2002 03:43:27 PM · #40

Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I can live without feedback...

I can too, but it's a daily struggle. I'm a comment whore :-)

07/23/2002 03:46:34 PM · #41

On the feedback issue I can agree 1000%.

I am sure if you go back to some of my own posts months ago you would see the same desire. I had even mentioned something about requiring comments on extreme votes but the idea of requiring comments of any kind was blown apart like an Afghan flag flying in Brooklyn.

I have not changed my DESIRE for more comments but have come to the realization that forcing folks to do anything has a negative effect and I have changed my stance about asking/requiring people to do anything.

And you are correct John, simple things do get complicated real fast. Thats why it is often best if the admins just go with what they think they need to do and live with the consequences. Lengthy discussion usally goes in circles.

Canon EF 28-105mm f/3.5-4.5 II USM

07/23/2002 03:46:34 PM · #42

well, until we come up with something different (and i don't think we even need to), i'd better get back to adding my two cents worth to some more photographers' submissions ... :)

autool

Canon EOS-20D

07/23/2002 03:48:15 PM · #43

Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I like autotool''s approach also. There are about two or three people here who do something similar... that approach gives me some feedback about what they do or don''t like about my photo... :)

Thanks John. Your ideas about canned comments are accepted here. I have noticed that with my country boy method that most of the final ratings come out higher than I would normally give if I just plunked down a single rating. With that in mind something that kind of forces everyone to cover more of the field sounds good to me. Don''t get discussted just remember a lot of the folks out here have a hard time making a decision. Keep up the good work!

Autool

* This message has been edited by the author on 7/23/2002 3:51:35 PM.

cthenk

Panasonic DMC-FZ50

07/23/2002 03:49:12 PM · #44

Originally posted by hokie:

I agree with Hokie:

I think we just need to back off all these requirements like voting percentages and comments and let the site roll on. Lets concentrate more on the tutorials and other educational aspects and let the photo submissions, voting and comments just happen as they will.

I too have slacked off considerably on my comments this week. I've got cable hookup so it's not the amount of entries (actually more more more is better!) It's the fact that although new in photography I know what I like and don't. My comments are simply that - comments. Take 'em or leave 'em. I've been too busy to submit a photo since the 'City Life' fiasco [<g> fiasco for my 'taxpayer';)] (until this week)so I tried instead to increase my comments per public demand - I've been 'flamed' or atleast singed on a few. Perhaps I should just include a disclaimer with all future comments?

Question to everyone: If you want everyone to agree with you about your photo, don't ask for honesty in the feedback. I don't want anyone sugarcoating their comments to me...how the hell does one learn from that? And what exactly are you trying to learn if you think your photo is already above any ideas given in a critque? - I'm not saying all ideas in comments would improve your photo's.

I joined this site in hopes of achieving the initial goals here - to learn something. Perhaps (no flames please <g>) the top 3 winners in each category could to 'How'd you do that' or perhaps we could vote on who should do them each week - all I'm learning to do is keep my mouth shut (mother would be pleased and husband is beside himself with glee) Then again, this post isn't a very good example of that now is it.:)

Sorry (speaking of disclamers) if this comes across harsh to anyone - I have no excuses I'm a bare it all type person.

Zeissman

Canon EOS-500D Rebel T1i

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS

07/23/2002 03:51:55 PM · #45

I really think the current system is good enough. With the amount of photos we are seeing, I really do not want to do anything to slow down voting, or to give people an excuse not to leave comments.

If I only get two or three usefull comments, that is fine. Can you imagine trying to read through two hundred canned comments?

If someone is going to tell me my picture is average, they better have reasons to go with it, or do not bother saying anything.

Swashbuckler

Sony DSC-F717

07/23/2002 03:54:26 PM · #46

Been there, done that.

Here''s a twist on the theme, would the site be interested in an addition to one of the existing tabs? (Maybe under the Community tab) In that tab would be various canned responses, maybe grouped by similar grading methods, could be stored/added to by any/all users. Then while grading, the user can, if they choose, open an extra browser window and load this page. If you wanted to copy and paste a comment from "the list", great, less typing, if you wanted to borrow a segment of a comment, still less typing/faster grading. If you don''t see anything at all you like, crank up your fingers and start typing!

I like both of your suggestions, John, and Autool, too!
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I know what stock photography is... i give up...

* This message has been edited by the author on 7/23/2002 3:55:11 PM.

myqyl

Nikon D3100

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6G DX VR

07/23/2002 03:56:45 PM · #47

Originally posted by cthenk:

Perhaps I should just include a disclaimer with all future comments?

I end almost all of my comments, especially critical ones, with "But that's just me :)". I have a Macro to add it in now since I use it so often. While it's not flame proof, it's at least flame resistant...

I like the idea of some form of canned, selectable comments, but I think it needs to be thought out VERY carefully and should 'help' the voter make a comment, not make it for them... Maybe it can even help them look at the image in a different way. But I see a real need to avoid having the 'canned' replace the 'farm fresh' we sometimes get now.

But that's just me :)

07/23/2002 04:01:25 PM · #48

i believe some people already use their own canned comments in a spreadsheet or something similar. maybe that's a solution for those that really really want canned comments? at least they will be your own comments?

but that's just me (i like that one, myqyl ;)