Believe in God? - DPChallenge Forums

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

04/16/2005 03:35:03 PM · #52

A very interesting topic. Here is my humble take on this subject:

From the start mankind has wondered about its origin and then came a time after survival was under control that humankind begot a series of individuals who decided to seek a philosophy based on the highest good to determine the best ethical behaviour.

Well, after exhaustive examination of the many miracles present in our very existence they needed something akin to the atom. A logos, a first cause. This first cause would then help determine the train of thought that would follow in building up a case for man and his presence in the universe.

Now, they knew that there was light and darkness and they at once realized that their philosophy must be based on the light. It was an easy extrapulation to go from light and dark to good and evil. We all know our motives can flow from either well and as such they recognized that life's energy can be directed for good or bad. The important thing is that they wanted a philosophy based on the very best and so they chose goodness.

Therefore, they now sought to find the root of goodness. They then named this force God. We are not talking about a personal God nor are we talking about religion. Simply a label to explain the highest goodness. Of course, the antithesis is also required and it was named after Satan.

So the association follows that the light is attributed to God and the dark to Satan. While this sounds very simple we all admit that there are two opposing forces.

Now, it is a simple matter to approach certain topics such as ethics. Ethics is perhaps one of the most important because it dictates the inter relationship between mankind. So a list is then compiled of what is good and what is bad. The good is placed on the God side and the bad on Satan. From here we determine to find out that those that act reponsibly and according to sound ethical standards fare better than those that go with the dark side.

Will not enumerate it all but goodness breathes respect for life and each other while darkness breathes contempt for anything that interferes and seeks its destruction.

From all of the above leads me to believe in God and as such I do not have to see him. The works of creation are demonstrated throughout.

Many of the problems arise when Men tries to codify this God and give it a definition. It gets worse when Men go out and put together a religion. Too many tongues, too many interpretations equal excessive confusion.

However, if we accept all of the former, then we should all show respect to each other and respect the beliefs of others. Remember, one of the main mission of a religion is also ethical behaviour. These people have goodness as their Godhead. The religion has the advantage that it teaches the very young and old the code of ethics required to co-exist.

It matters little if you are religious or not provided that you adopt an ethical standard associated with goodness.

Look, suppose you do not believe in this goodness called God. How do you go about teaching your children what is bad and what is good. And then how do you convince them that they should not grab a weapon and kill whatever interferes with their goal. Well, you will have to dwell deep and consider many logical arguments or re-invent the wheel. All religions have a precribed set of conduct based on ethics. Even if you do not employ religion, the former argument of good and bad have enough meat specially if you accept an apex to your existence known as goodness and to some known as God.

Canon RF 35mm f/1.8 IS Macro

04/16/2005 03:50:48 PM · #53

Daniel (Graphicfunk), you're making too much sense. ;-) Seriously, I think your line of reasoning is right on track. It has to resonate with anyone who has a rational mind and a good heart. You also express a viewpoint that's non-absolute and inclusive, admitting of other possibilities.

What makes me sad, however, is that there are too many who feel that their way is and can be the only correct way. I could never embrace a concept of God that's exclusive.

Toniann220

Canon EOS R6

04/16/2005 03:53:41 PM · #54

Originally posted by deapee:

Do you believe in God? How do you know that he's real? How can a person who is un-certain as to whether or not he is real ever really come to the conclusion that he is real -- short of him appearing infront of you and telling you he's real or praying for something like all the water in your glass to disapear and then it suddenly does.

I know the bible fairly well -- I went through Christian schools and church during my childhood.

Here's another one -- if you kill yourself, will you go to heaven? I can't say for certain that I agree with what I've read. People say things like you are throwing away the gift of life that God gave you, so no, you won't. Well what if that gift of life is littered with bouts of depression and possibly some other mental disfunction? Should you sit there and just live on just to some day look back at how horrible your life was and how hard you've had to work through depression, hypochondria, illness, heartache, lonliness, and fear, among other things, and you you have gained little or nothing at all from it all?

God gave us life to give us a sacrifice too see how well we take on all the stress and all the pain reality gives us .. notice how everyone in this life has a problem each person in this world carries cross on there back .. wether it's a small one or a big one .... when you think of taking your own life God has no part in that .. It's the other ONE trying to suck you in his world.. stay with god live till he takes you .. show him your sacrifice .. like his son has done for us ..

Message edited by author 2005-04-16 15:55:03.

smellyfish1002

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

04/16/2005 05:31:21 PM · #55

I do believe in God, and my proof is that I am even alive. I've been unconscious for over five minutes 135 feet under water, by myself, off the coast of Italy. People don't survive things like that without some kind of divine help. I've had three other circumstances in my life that I should not have survived, but I'm still here.
If God showed up in the sky and spoke to us, it would be a no brainer. Man has free will, and to believe in God requires some knowledge, some belief, and a great deal of faith. I can't explain why people have to chose to believe, or choose not to believe. I do believe in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. I have my reasons, but much of it relies on faith. Some people say faith is a sign of a weak mind, but I don't think so. It takes a stong mind and a firm decision to have faith. I don't know if you have decided what you believe, but I wish you luck in your spiritual journey and you will be in my prayers.
JD

Message edited by author 2005-04-16 17:31:52.

smellyfish1002

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

04/16/2005 05:38:19 PM · #56

Originally posted by MeThoS:

I believe that all people have an inherent sense of what is right and what is wrong. That is where our conscience and guilt come from. I also think it is where compassion and love comes from. I don't think you need a bible or any written text to understand the fundamentals of good and evil, as they are planted in each of us by our Creator.

SirBiggsALot

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

Sigma 55-200mm f/4.5-5.6 DC for Canon

04/16/2005 06:35:27 PM · #57

Originally posted by deapee:

Faith is probably the hardest thing for a Believer to explain to someone who doesn't believe. I've heard it explained like when you sit down you "trust" that the chair is well made, and faith is like that...or something similar to that. I feel like faith cannot be explained fully through such simplistic means. However, I don't feel that faith was ever meant to be fully explained. Part of the Christian, as well as other faiths, experience is struggling with the intangible nature of the presence of God and the affect that has on ones faith. I cannot explain faith in words, I've never had any life threatening experiences or special tinglings in the middle of the night or spoken in any crazy tounge(chinese exclueded ha..). My faith isn't based on my experiences just my knowledge of the Omnipotence and Omniscience of God as spelled out in the Bible. Not that this answers your question, but those who ask this question won't ever fully understand the true nature of faith without attempting that experience of it.

What the second question refers to is the "Unpardonable Sin" that is referred to in one of the Gospels (Matthew I think). Someone already addressed this question quite well by referring to church tradition really being the sources of the "Suicide goes to hell" idea. Many scholars believe the "unpardonable sin" could only have occured while Jesus was on earth and that is was the rejection of the Holy Spirit that denied entry into Heaven. The only clear way to get to hell is to sin...any sin, and the the only clear way to get to Heaven is through faith in Christ. By that math, the only real unpardonable sin would be to reject Christ. Anyway those are my thoughts on this question...probably not thourough enough for some, but it'll do for now.

Gauti

Canon EOS-7D

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

04/16/2005 08:09:02 PM · #58

Sigma 55-200mm f/4.5-5.6 DC for Canon

04/16/2005 08:36:10 PM · #59

Originally posted by SirBiggsALot:

...
The only clear way to get to hell is to sin...any sin, and the the only clear way to get to Heaven is through faith in Christ. By that math, the only real unpardonable sin would be to reject Christ. ...

I doubt that I've rejected Christ. I just don't believe that he exists, nor, quite possibly, that he ever existed (although that's impossible to really know). How does one actually "reject" Christ? I mean, if someone wants to offer me an assurance of a happy, beautiful afterlife, - sure, I'll take it. I have no idea what it means, but it sounds like an offer I can't refuse. And, how do I "choose" to believe (that what??...), if "belief" is the price?

It's not simple, if you acknowledge an intelligent, rational mind, to believe something in the absence of compelling evidence to do so, ...and especially in light of unanswered (unaswerable?) questions.

SirBiggsALot

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

04/16/2005 09:31:39 PM · #60

Originally posted by lenkphotos:

Originally posted by SirBiggsALot:
...
The only clear way to get to hell is to sin...any sin, and the the only clear way to get to Heaven is through faith in Christ. By that math, the only real unpardonable sin would be to reject Christ. ...

I doubt that I've rejected Christ. I just don't believe that he exists, nor, quite possibly, that he ever existed (although that's impossible to really know). How does one actually "reject" Christ? I mean, if someone wants to offer me an assurance of a happy, beautiful afterlife, - sure, I'll take it. I have no idea what it means, but it sounds like an offer I can't refuse. And, how do I "choose" to believe (that what??...), if "belief" is the price?

It's not simple, if you acknowledge an intelligent, rational mind, to believe something in the absence of compelling evidence to do so, ...and especially in light of unanswered (unaswerable?) questions.

To reject Christ is to not believe in him. You don't believe he exists thereby rejecting His teachings etc...The belief in Christ is centered around His sacrificial death and His resurrection three days later. Essentially it is the belief that Christ is the fullfillment of the Messianic prophecies from Genesis to Malachi, the Savior of the World.

As for compelling evidence, most scholars who study the era of Jesus' time don't argue that there was a man named Jesus who was contreversial. The detail where scholars part ways is Jesus's claim to deity...etc. Other compelling evidence would be the 300 plus messianic prophecies written at least 400 years before Jesus's birth. Seeing that He fulfilled these prophesies you are left with four options, complete disbelief, belief that Jesus was just really lucky and fulfilled them by chance, Jesus's disciples made him out to be the messiah when they wrote the Gospels, or you must come to the conclusion that what is written about Jesus is true, and that He is the Messiah. I choose to believe that He is the Messiah, savior to anyone who will come to Him.

When you look at it, whether you believe there is a God or not, you are acting on your understanding of the world around you. Neither position can be proved without a doubt, both acquire a measure of faith and convction to believe them.

magicshutter

Nikon D70

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

04/16/2005 09:33:58 PM · #61

Originally posted by RulerZigzag:

Being a Taoist and all, I definatly believe in the Tao. A natural order of things , a force in each and every living sentiment or being. It is not a religion or philosophy, but it is a way of life. Everything in the Universe is balanced. One can achieve happiness when the Tao is balanced.

in 'philosophy for dummies' this means,, without pain and despair, happiness and content can't exist.

soup

Canon EOS-30D

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

04/16/2005 09:48:31 PM · #62

god is one of those things that everyone has their own definition of.
i don't believe there is A god. i feel there is personal god for each individual person ( if that person choses to believe ). i feel that the more that people believe in someone elses god, the less the actual belief means. i feel this is where religion today is failing, and to a degree worsening the lives of many.

i consider myself no more fortunate than the maple tree in the yard. i feel the maples pain when it loses a branch. i will end up in the same place as the maple, in the end. benefit others, and your god will be happy with you...

take it or leave it, religion has has caused more major wars than anything else. how many people has it actually saved?

Message edited by author 2005-04-16 22:06:33.

graphicfunk

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

04/16/2005 11:31:03 PM · #63

Another observation on this topic.

The psychology of the human being is a combination of chambers. To simplify we can say one chamber handles our waking state, another our sleeping state, then another chamber the sum of all the parts. We are nothing but identity points in the cosmos. Let us accept the main chamber with the identity of the self. You can at once see the immediate problem. Too many parts to be managed by a single identity point which shares to a degree a collective intelligence.

Well, what happens when one identity point fails to respect the right of others. What happens when another identity point sees no harm in indulgence. What happens when another sees no point in advancing his personal esteem. Fill in all the others and the list has no end.

The question then looms: How is men to proceed? There are certainly many path to follow and some are just no good.

When this problems blossoms worldwide there is impending chaos ahead. Like I said in my earlier post: the need for ethical behaviour becomes paramount. It is this need which gives rise to religion. Before there was religion there was God and many thinkers concluded so and gave it the name of the first cause.

The problem is that many of us are born into families that struggle to stay alive and there is little time for reflection. No many have the luxury of the philosophers to seek the internal light. Something more simple is required and so out of this necessity is born the dire need for religion. Religion brings simplification. Most religions are based on goodness. They indeed serve a great purpose and bring internal solace to those chambers, especially the self identity chamber.

Many know what religion accomplishes. It gives you a set of rules and you do not have to debate whether killing is good or bad, or many of the other code of ethics. Here you are set free to live your life by using religion as a moral compass. For this reason it makes little sense to attack religion because without it there would be more chaos.

Yes, many of us have the capacity to do deep soul searching or analytical acrobatics to weed out that which is bad and what is good. Then we need to balance out the chambers to remain whole. As you can see this topic of ethics is very complex because there are many gray areas and there is a tendency to fall into the all is relative mode. This means that deeper comtemplation is needed but the whole thing is so gummy that many ends are left untied.

Religions have received a lot of deep thought and as such they can spell out wrong and right with no problem whatsoever. Remember they use the Godhead as their final reference and their teachings have proven to be very effective. As a religion grows it is subject to many errors and we all see it in the leading religions. Yet, the core, remains good.

Belief is a personal matter. We all navigate this world to the best of our abilities. It does not matter what you believe the important thing is your ethical foundation. This can be had with or without religion, but religion just makes it easier. Without religion then the individual is left to his own devises to create a working set of ethics to live by.
You must open the old topics and examine them carefully and determine which is the safest way to proceed.

Those of us who lose our way will make the chamber of conscience rather radio active without the hope of returning to a whole condition. This chamber which is out front and which identifies with ourselves, is more sensitive then we lead on. When we become so, we are one step from insanity. Religions would say we are lost and that is a fact.

It all depends on your temperement and your ability to reason. The questions and problems are of the highest importance and to grow up and age with a reasonable balance of all chambers is the challenge. Religion gives it to you in a silver plate.

It makes no sense to pit one religion over the over or one belief system over the other. It makes no sense for non believers to pride themselves over those who are religious or vice versa. Look, we all lay in the bed we make. We all seek. We are born alone and we die alone. hard as we search we find no absolute answers to our existence. Under such a case nobody knows the "truth" so why aggravate your fellow being with the absurdity that your way is the way. Let those who practice faith do so in peace. The first responsibility is the ethical debt we owe each other. To be and let be.

Cutter

Nikon D700

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 17-55mm f/2.8G IF-ED

04/16/2005 11:55:33 PM · #64

An important concept people must keep in the forefront of their mind is the following: Is there a fundamental reason or need to believe in a divine creator? Is there any proof or perspective that adequately defines the cause of the universe, the origins we all inquire about, and the purpose of life?

Secondly, one misconception I have constantly reviewed in the previous postings is the following.... People seemingly believe in a pantheistic culture. This is fallacious. In fact, all the worldsâ�� religions, namely those who incorporate a transcendent, believably theistic worldview are mutually exclusive. So there is no such thing as "what you define as your god and view" or the whatever works for you ideal. You must believe in something that is fundamentally secure in its historical, experiential, prophetic, and philosophical claims. I argue that the "religion" of Judaic-Christo background most succinctly satisfies these demands. And I welcome any pertinent comments or inquiries in regards to my stance.

traser

Nikon D50

04/17/2005 12:07:44 AM · #65

Hi there,

I believe in God, but I never had a glass of water disappear before me. I don't hink absolute certainity is possible. In fact it's almost imposible to prove anything w/ absolute certainity. But I believe that God is as described in the Bible because of the historical accuracy of the Bible, it's lack of corruption of text when compared to other texts of antiquity and fulfilled prophecy. I've also had my life changed and seen others have dramatic turnarounds after choosing to follow Jesus. Life isn't easy and being a Christian won't make it easier but God can give you objective purpose for your life and make you more able to deal with all kinds of fears and doubts. You can PM me if you want to talk.

Originally posted by deapee:

lykofos

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

04/17/2005 01:32:36 PM · #66

My religion is what I define as "Angry Agnosticism." I've seen horrible things happen to people I love. And people in general for that matter. I don't know whether god exists and don't care, but if anyone could prove to me right now with 100% accuracy that god and jesus exist, I would still absolutely not be one of their followers. They're absentee landlords and I would rage against them.

Of course, there are theist arguments for the existence of evil. God doesn't interfere in the lives of humans (free will), he uses evil to test our faith and make us stronger, etc. Well, I exercise my free will and god can go shove it. I'm hardened enough already, thank you.

I was raised greek orthodox christian, asked questions that could not be answered to my satisfaction and became strongly athestic. Then I came to the realization that despite man's obsessive need to be absolutely right, there is no proof 100% in either direction. A few life experiences later and, I moved on to Angry Agnosticism.

Sorry if this seems to much like a rant. It's simply my viewpoint and how I feel towards the subject. I only bring up religion if people ask (you asked deepea), because it is a sensitive topic for many and my opinions are usually considered offensive. I actually have more Christian friends than non-religious friends, and we agree to disagree. Hate the game not the player, right?

RulerZigzag

Nikon D750

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 200-500mm f/5.6E ED VR

04/17/2005 06:14:03 PM · #67

Originally posted by magicshutter:

Originally posted by RulerZigzag:
Being a Taoist and all, I definatly believe in the Tao. A natural order of things , a force in each and every living sentiment or being. It is not a religion or philosophy, but it is a way of life. Everything in the Universe is balanced. One can achieve happiness when the Tao is balanced.

in 'philosophy for dummies' this means,, without pain and despair, happiness and content can't exist.

exactly

sabphoto

Samsung Galaxy S8/S8+

04/17/2005 07:18:15 PM · #68

Originally posted by nsbca7:

Originally posted by cloudsme:
There is a way to prove that God is real. Have faith and pray. When you find that prayers are answered, you will have your proof.

Not such a good "proof". What if you should have faith and pray and your prayers are not answered? Does that also prove there is no God?

All prayers are answered eventually BUT when they aren't answered the way people want they assume they weren't answered. God does not always have to give you what you pray for becuase He knows what is best for us. He gives us what we need only when we need it. If you ask a waiter for a glass of coke and he brings you water does that mean he doesn't exist cause he didn't fulfill your request? Also, going to the church does not mean you will go to heaven, the church was established by God to give us a place to worship Him and gather with other believers. And just cause you believe in God doesn't mean you will go to heaven either, even Satan believes in God, He has spoken to Satan in many scriptures and he will not be in Heaven.

God is real and although you cannont see Him physically, you can see His work and beauty in everything if you open you eyes and SEE not just look.

God did not stop the tsunami for His own reasons. Look how 9/11 brought the American people together, this doens't mean that He caused it or even allowed it to happen but He didn't let it go without a reason. Heck we kick Him out of our lives, schools, and government everyday...why wouldn't He allow something like this to happen to bring the children He loves more than anything back to Him.

The way I see it...I would rather live a life time with the love for God and Jesus in my heart, loving my neighbors and the thought of going to be with Him forever in heaven and be wrong and just die without an afterlife. Than to live everyday sad, depressed, angry, trying to keep up with the Jones and have an overall miserable life, then die and find out I could have gone to heaven.

04/17/2005 07:36:50 PM · #69

Do you think that if Satan repented, God would allow him into heaven? What about Hitler? Perhaps he repented as he was dying. Could he now be sitting at the right hand of God? Maybe it really doesn't matter one iota what we do here, so long as we say "I'm sorry; I now believe." with our dying breath.

GoldBerry

Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM

04/17/2005 07:46:51 PM · #70

Originally posted by lenkphotos:

You got it.

P.S. Satan is the fallen angel Michael.

Art Roflmao

Canon EOS-6D Mark II

04/17/2005 07:49:43 PM · #71

Originally posted by lykofos:

Wow! You described my life almost exactly - 'cept I was raised Catholic. I went Catholic (by decree), Atheist (by choice), Agnostic (by reason - same as you), and Christian (by way of real, personal experience).

I try not to 'preach' - only tell people of my experiences - and not in a public forum, but one on one. I also learned that you cannot convince someone into belief through debate or intellectual argument. It's personal. And regarding the comment about God being an absentee landlord - not true. If you truly seek, you will truly find and he will answer - not always the way you think and you may not even know it until ten years down the road.

Regarding your comment about hating the game, etc. Good for you. I get so annoyed at people calling Christians "intolerant" and "narrow minded" (names I used to use against them as well - out of complete ignorance). I am all for respecting others' beliefs and opinions - even if we harshly disagree on a particular aspect or issue. Just keep an open mind.

04/17/2005 07:52:15 PM · #72

Originally posted by GoldBerry:

Originally posted by lenkphotos:
Do you think that if Satan repented, God would allow him into heaven? What about Hitler? Perhaps he repented as he was dying. Could he now be sitting at the right hand of God? Maybe it really doesn't matter one iota what we do here, so long as we say "I'm sorry; I now believe." with our dying breath.

You got it.

P.S. Satan is the fallen angel Michael.

Then why bother??

Art Roflmao

Canon EOS-6D Mark II

04/17/2005 08:03:41 PM · #73

Originally posted by lenkphotos:

Satan is not, nor ever was human. The offer of forgiveness does not extend to him. Hitler, on the other hand very well could repent and be saved.

If you've ever heard of NDE (Near Death Experience), you've probably heard about the warm, bright light, etc. -well there's a video documentary called "To Hell and Back" in which people who have died tell a very different account of their experiences. Most were atheists, humanists or just secular types who lived for themselves. All reported having seen Jesus (even though they didn't believe in Him, they said they knew it was Him). When they were being tormented, they almost instinctively called upon him to help them. They came back and became believers.

Art Roflmao

Canon EOS-6D Mark II