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12/14/2004 07:52:22 AM · #1 |
I have seen this commented on before but just want be sure.
I know that it is illegal to blend multi exposures out of the camera.
But is it legal to take one photo in RAW/NEF adjust the exposure to 2 different levels and then blend the 2 images that are created from one exposure?
It was commented on as being legal but I'm not sure that is the case or maybe this sit in a grey area?
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12/14/2004 08:04:40 AM · #2 |
I'm not site council, but
YES for members challenges and
NO for open challenges
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12/14/2004 08:06:59 AM · #3 |
Definitely legal for Advanced Rules, but definitely not legal for Basic Rules.
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12/14/2004 09:45:49 AM · #4 |
the raw file would have to be saved as two seperate files - one for each exposure, and then combined afterwards.
that doesn't seem to jive to me.
if it is really legal - i wouldn't complain.
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12/14/2004 09:52:41 AM · #5 |
It is legal for Advanced Editing as has already been stated. The reason it is legal is because the one raw file can be submitted during the validation phase if necessary, and the submitter can explain:
Create one image with -1 exposure compensation
Create second image with +1 exposure compensation
Combine into two layers in Photoshop
blab blah blah
This is much different than a "multi-image composition" where multiple photos would have to be submitted as proof. |
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12/14/2004 09:53:03 AM · #6 |
| Does this mean I need to go out and spend $1000+ to compete in Advanced Editing challenges? I'm still very new regarding digital photo capabilities (i.e. basics like curves, etc...). The mulitple exposure concept is appealing, but my low to mid level Z2 isn't up to the task. :-( |
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12/14/2004 10:01:40 AM · #7 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Does this mean I need to go out and spend $1000+ to compete in Advanced Editing challenges? I'm still very new regarding digital photo capabilities (i.e. basics like curves, etc...). The mulitple exposure concept is appealing, but my low to mid level Z2 isn't up to the task. :-( |
I don't believe that would be necesary. I believe that there has been at least a few ribbon winners that performed minimal editing to their Advanced Editing Challenge Rule Entries. I have entered an Advanced editing challenge with minimal editing and I was quite happy with the rating I received. |
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12/14/2004 10:08:05 AM · #8 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
The mulitple exposure concept is appealing,( |
This is not multiple exposure.
Here are the steps involved.
1. You capture the image in RAW - once only (this is the key point which keeps the challenge entry legal for DPC).
2. You open up the RAW image at, say -1 exposure.
3. Save that with a different file name.
4. Re-open the original RAW file at, say +1 exposure.
5. Save that with a different file name.
You now have two layers from the same, unadulterated RAW file. You can combine the layers and perform the other functions you would normally. If you're required to validate your entry, you can send in the original RAW file.
A word of caution, however: if the original RAW file contains highlights or blocked out blacks, no amount of under and over exposing will save the image in RAW conversion. (I know about some saving which is possible, but that's a different matter.) So, this is not the same as a true multiple exposure which would have radically different exposures for both images. |
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12/14/2004 10:14:24 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by Koriyama:
So, this is not the same as a true multiple exposure which would have radically different exposures for both images. |
However, if you manage to do multiple exposures into a single camera picture, then blending those multiple exposures should be legal, right? |
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12/14/2004 10:14:37 AM · #10 |
Technically, you don't need two files. You can open the RAW file with the first settings, save it as something else, open it again with the second settings, then copy/paste the result into the first image as a new layer. You can then just close the second RAW conversion without ever saving.
This really doesn't save a lot of time over Koriyama's workflow, but does avoid having to keep track of two files.
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12/14/2004 10:19:45 AM · #11 |
Originally posted by kirbic:
Technically, you don't need two files. You can open the RAW file with the first settings, save it as something else, open it again with the second settings, then copy/paste the result into the first image as a new layer. You can then just close the second RAW conversion without ever saving.
This really doesn't save a lot of time over Koriyama's workflow, but does avoid having to keep track of two files. |
Or you can do it without ever saving at all, using the 'duplicate' option in Photoshop, and just open the file twice... |
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12/14/2004 10:24:18 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by Gurilla:
...then blend the 2 images that are created from one exposure? ... |
Sorry, wrong verbiage used. I understand that it's not a multiple exposure, more like layering - can you tell I'm a newbie at digital? :-) However you look at it, it sounds like you can achieve some interesting results with it...and I'll never know until I pony up for a higher end camera. :-/ That's not so bad either...gives me an excuse down the road for an upgrade if I ever get to that level!
Message edited by author 2004-12-14 10:24:36. |
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12/14/2004 10:26:03 AM · #13 |
| Or you can use a graduated ND filter. |
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12/14/2004 10:31:42 AM · #14 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Or you can do it without ever saving at all, using the 'duplicate' option in Photoshop, and just open the file twice... |
This ia actually what I do. I just added the file saving option to emphasise the point of having the single source file being used to create two others.
Originally posted by Gabriel:
However, if you manage to do multiple exposures into a single camera picture, then blending those multiple exposures should be legal, right? |
That's right. Some cameras have a multiple exposure function. This is legal even for the open challenges here. |
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12/14/2004 11:49:57 AM · #15 |
I can't believe this is actually legal!!!
I always shoot RAW. I do this for images that I work on for my own purposes, but for DPC I've been using a single exposure and duplicating the layer in PS and then adjusting levels on each layer, which works but not really as well. I just always thought this would be considered two images.
Look out ribbons, here I come! LOL!
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12/14/2004 12:04:45 PM · #16 |
| I would think there is going to be very little advantage in converting from raw twice. I say this because you can convert to 48 bit mode and get great depth to do further editing with, converting to 8 bit for the final jpeg. The only real advantage that I can think of would be to adjust the white balance for different parts of the photo using different settings, but this is more of a time saving step since you can effectively adjust the white balance using curves or the color cast tool. |
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12/14/2004 12:17:49 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by Gurilla:
...then blend the 2 images that are created from one exposure? ... |
Sorry, wrong verbiage used. I understand that it's not a multiple exposure, more like layering - can you tell I'm a newbie at digital? :-) However you look at it, it sounds like you can achieve some interesting results with it...and I'll never know until I pony up for a higher end camera. :-/ That's not so bad either...gives me an excuse down the road for an upgrade if I ever get to that level! |
Similar results can be acheived with any file- just Ctrl-J to dup the layer, adjust as needd nd blend them back together - works if you selectivey choose highs on one layer and lows on the other. Again. since this is a selective action, not legal in basic editing. |
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12/14/2004 12:32:23 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by bestagents:
Similar results can be acheived with any file- just Ctrl-J to dup the layer, adjust as needd nd blend them back together - works if you selectivey choose highs on one layer and lows on the other. Again. since this is a selective action, not legal in basic editing. |
Now I can't wait to get home and play around with this some. Thanks! |
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12/14/2004 12:43:40 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by bestagents:
Similar results can be acheived with any file- just Ctrl-J to dup the layer, adjust as needd nd blend them back together - works if you selectivey choose highs on one layer and lows on the other. Again. since this is a selective action, not legal in basic editing. |
Now I can't wait to get home and play around with this some. Thanks! |
I have an action that does this in somre form - I read on how to do it once...basically you make a selection based on dark and light parts of the image, make each its own layer. Then you blend (method) the highs with MUTLIPLY and lows with SCREEN, adjust opacity to get what you want.
i am fuzzy on how to select though...
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12/14/2004 01:08:57 PM · #20 |
Basically, a raw picture has a larger dynamic range being as each pixel is represented by more bits. The Canon cameras, with raw mode, come with software to convert the raw picture into 8 bit jpeg format. They do this by allowing the user to select an "exposure" which is +2 to -2. This selects a range within the raw histogram from which to produce the 8 bit jpeg format. Even if the initial histogram had nothing in the dark area, by choosing a negative "exposure," the resulting histogram might be quite dense in both the dark and light areas.
However, if one buys the latest photoshop, one can achieve the same thing by just converting to 16 bit tiff and processing the tiff with curves which allows far more use of the additional bits in the raw image. One can use curves to retain picture information from both dark and light areas while skimping on information from the middle. You can then produce pictures with detail in both shadows and highlights. You can also purchase C1-LE which offers the same capability at much lower bucks.
However, the really cheap way is to just capture two 8 bit jpeg images from the raw with the canon software, one dark and one light, put one on the base level and one on level 1 in photo shop elements or paintshop, and then multiply blend them to achieve the same effect as you can with curves.
It makes no sense to me to not allow multiply blends of the entire image, other than to force competitors into buying more expensive software which permits curves on the raw.
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12/14/2004 01:21:43 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by bestagents:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by bestagents:
Similar results can be acheived with any file- just Ctrl-J to dup the layer, adjust as needd nd blend them back together - works if you selectivey choose highs on one layer and lows on the other. Again. since this is a selective action, not legal in basic editing. |
Now I can't wait to get home and play around with this some. Thanks! |
I have an action that does this in somre form - I read on how to do it once...basically you make a selection based on dark and light parts of the image, make each its own layer. Then you blend (method) the highs with MUTLIPLY and lows with SCREEN, adjust opacity to get what you want.
i am fuzzy on how to select though... |
The tutorial discribing the above is here, "Improving Shadow and Highlight Detail. It works similar to, but with less control than, the Shadow/Highlights adjustment in PS CS. In my experience (very limited as I didn't like the results) they tend to leave drastic color-casts after the adjustment. Maybe I'll look into them again, now I have learned a bit more about handling color-casts.
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A bit of a query though; could it be confirmed the second layer of the entire image must be 'pixel exact' with the first for this to be leagal. I wouldn't want someone moving elements thinking they were ok with this method since it has been confirmed leagal.
David
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12/14/2004 01:31:55 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by bestagents:
... Then you blend (method) the highs with MUTLIPLY and lows with SCREEN, adjust opacity to get what you want. |
Illegal in Basic Rules - must be layered with 'Normal' blending mode.
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12/14/2004 02:09:47 PM · #23 |
My camera only cost about $300 (and that was quite a while ago), and it shoots in Canon Raw mode. So, don't need to spend big money for that.
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12/14/2004 02:34:28 PM · #24 |
I know this isn't quite the same as blending, but can I use a photo with multiple exposures in a Basic Challenge?
Everything is done in camera with no editing. |
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12/14/2004 02:41:17 PM · #25 |
Thanks for the feedback, it is as I thought but just wanted to confirm.
Most of the skills (photography and editing)I learn are through producing photo's for dpc challenges and experimenting. I can see this being quite a valuable tool to have in the kit.
Many of the consumer camera's shoot in RAW so there is no need to buy a dslr to be able to use this method.
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