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12/13/2004 04:30:26 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I am getting worse if I judge my performance by DPChallenge standards. Here are my numbers:
Challenges 01-10: AVG Score: 6.4470 - AVG Placement: 13 - PCT: 87
Challenges 11-20: AVG Score: 6.4190 - AVG Placement: 21 - PCT: 86.6
Challenges 21-30: AVG Score: 6.4198 - AVG Placement: 34 - PCT: 82.5
Challenges 31-40: AVG Score: 6.2343 - AVG Placement: 32 - PCT: 80.1
Challenges 41-50: AVG Score: 6.1184 - AVG Placement: 42 - PCT: 77.1
Challenges 51-60: AVG Score: 6.1692 - AVG Placement: 28 - PCT: 78.2
Challenges 61-70: AVG Score: 5.4699 - AVG Placement: 66 - PCT: 54.8
Challenges 71-80: AVG Score: 5.7048 - AVG Placement: 72 - PCT: 69.1
Challenges 81-93: AVG Score: 5.6312 - AVG Placement: 75 - PCT: 60.0
What do these numbers mean?
They mean that I'm getting worse over time :)
What they really mean is something entirely different...
I believe that average scores will fall over time for a lot of people. People who are in the early learning stages of photography will see average scores rise, and then level out. When I joined this site, I had some idea of what good photos were and my scores were good. If you go back and look at any of my first 10 photos and the scores they received, there aren't many of them that would score within a full point of that in the same challenge today. As more people come to this site, higher scores are harder to achieve. One of the primary reasons for this is the number of photos in any given challenge. I don't believe most photos get a fair shake in the voting process when there are over 300 photos in the challenge. When I first started here, 100 in a challenge was a huge number.
Why are my scores falling over time?
That's fairly simple. My personal interest in photography has changed in such a way that my images don't carry the mass appeal that they used to. Is this bad? Good? It's good for me because I really enjoy what I do. It's bad for me where DPChallenge is concerned because my performance here will continue to decline. I also expect my personal interest in photography to continue to change, so it's hard to tell where I will end up in time.
I believe that large numbers of new photographers joining the site every day has a negative impact on scores for the type of photography that *I* enjoy. This is not a complaint... it's just an observation based on my own experience. When I first joined this site, I loved the types of images that do well here... then and today. I was all about technical perfection and visually 'popping' photography. I was not into imagery that carried emotion and a story line at all. I didn't want to spend any time thinking about what the image meant to me or the photographer who shot it. I just wanted to see the pretty pictures.
The scores and feedback that we receive here are fun, none-the-less. However, when we get to a point where we want to pursue some different roads and ideas in photography, how can we get that same validation? When we travel a less-travelled path, we tend to alienate ourselves from the mainstream thinking, which is to be expected.
The answer to this is probably not found anywhere online. I have searched for countless hours trying to find a site with a group of photogrpahers who are on this less-travelled path. I'm looking for people who are more concerned with experimentation than being in a contest for a prize. This type of focus group is where continued feedback needs to come from. DPChallenge is not a 'focus' group. Maybe at some point in time, it will cater to this type of thinking, but I don't forsee it in the immediate future. This site is not about focusing on the oddball ideas or paths that a photographer may take beyond the 'pretty picture'. I suppose I'm just at a stage where the pursuit of the great photograph that I may produce in my life is taking me away from the general consensus.
Let's look at some examples of what I'm talking about:
"Secret Garden"
Score: 5.125
Placed 59 out of 88 (below average)
This photograph is a perfect realization of the idea I started out with. I would not change anything about the execution or post processing of this image. I'm perfectly content with it. In a mainstream environment, this photo meets with much resistance for obvious reasons. The subject choice is offensive to some. The exposure choices I made are offensive to some. The post processing I chose is offensive to some.
"I Am Not Lost"
Score: 4.820
Placed: 273 out of 436
This is another image where I would not change anything about it. This image represents an example of where the challenge itself comes into play. You can't get full validation on any given photograph if the general consensus is that it doesn't meet the challenge. This photo meets that particular challenge because it is 'part' of the whole. It failed miserably, I believe, because it was abstract enough that no one knew what they were looking at.
So, these are two examples of photos that I consider to be 'perfect' and how they performed poorly :)
I find that the best validation I can ever receive is when one of two, or both of these things happen:
1. I get a comment (online or verbal) about how a photo makes someone feel. It can be positive or negative, but if the image strikes an emotional reaction in a way that I had intended, there is some amount of success to be measured from that.
2. Someone buys a print... both of these examples I have posted have been bought more than once, which is probaby the most powerful validation you can get. Someone connects with the image in a way that makes them want to own it. They don't always even know how to describe why or how it affects them that strongly, but it happens.
For me, selling a print is worth more than a 'ribbon'. That satisfaction of knowing that someone liked the image well enough to do that is quite gratifying.
Anyway... I think I may have rambled too much here but I just wanted to share some thoughts :) |
NOW THAT SAYS IT ALL. THANK YOU!
You said what I was trying to say in my post above yours but you said it a lot better.
Message edited by author 2004-12-13 16:31:17.
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12/13/2004 04:43:57 PM · #27 |
I must be a masochist!
I keep submitting and never seem to improve, guess Im just a GOM!!
'GOM'...Grumpy Old Man. |
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12/13/2004 04:45:49 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by Formerlee:
I must be a masochist!
I keep submitting and never seem to improve, guess Im just a GOM!!
'GOM'...Grumpy Old Man. |
What steps have you taken to improve your work?
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12/13/2004 04:47:45 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by Formerlee:
I must be a masochist!
I keep submitting and never seem to improve, guess Im just a GOM!!
'GOM'...Grumpy Old Man. |
What steps have you taken to improve your work? |
Well, I can manage the three up to the front door now!
And I shut both eyes when I click that damn shutter! |
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12/13/2004 04:50:46 PM · #30 |
First entry - 3.825
Latest entry - 6.943
I admit I've not won a ribbon yet (a 4th and two 5ths is just soooo close, and yet so far), but this website has taken me from a complete photography beginner (I'd had a digital camera for about 2 months when I signed up) to someone who occasionally gets it together and pulls off a worthwhile shot :o)
And I've just noticed that I've got typos in the titles of both those entries! AARGH! Some things never change...
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12/13/2004 04:51:54 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by Formerlee:
Well, I can manage the three up to the front door now!
And I shut both eyes when I click that damn shutter! |
I tend to study an image that I particularly like and define what it is that I like about it. You should try it. You will find it very beneficial :)
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12/13/2004 04:58:29 PM · #32 |
When I comment more on others I seem to be able to use those same comments on myself before I take a photo for myself. Critique others to learn to be more self critical. This not only works for DPC, but especially outside it. I have to say that I have a good memory for what I see.
Especially being in the critique-club (CC) was rewarding when it comes to that. But I felt unsatisfied with how the crititiques were received and quit, starting a full-time job was another factor. I believe that the months around the challenge that I won a yellow ribbon coincided with being a member of the CC.
Don't make commenting a sport. They will have the most value for yourself and the receiver when you think in quality and not in quantity. Try to tell the photographer what you like but also what you dislike. This can start thinking processes that can really help to save you from making the same mistakes and to let you make use of what others showed you.
BTW, improving can not always be measured by the score.
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12/13/2004 04:58:53 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by Formerlee:
Well, I can manage the three up to the front door now!
And I shut both eyes when I click that damn shutter! |
I tend to study an image that I particularly like and define what it is that I like about it. You should try it. You will find it very beneficial :) |
Oh!! is that how it's done...might give that a try :)) |
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12/13/2004 05:01:22 PM · #34 |
good question. on one hand, i think my eye for composing is getting better, as in making things more simple and stand out. on the other hand, i had a certain style before i liked but i think i might just be subconsciously playing into the what I think the tastes here are. and my scores have been up and down... so really hard to say.
i had won awards in photography prior to this site, but havent come close to a ribbon here. but i find myself thinking more critically about my work recently.
in conclusion, i really have no idea!
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12/13/2004 05:09:06 PM · #35 |
This is fun looking at
I think I have improved sine I found this site
First 10 challenges 5.7997 - no ribbon
Last 10 challenges 7.1692 - 6 ribbons |
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12/13/2004 05:13:31 PM · #36 |
| No real improvement yet......But we'll keep trying! |
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12/13/2004 05:18:38 PM · #37 |
Well, if you ask people around here, I've gotten worse than when I started.
If you ask anyone else where I have no "themes for the week", I'm doing outstanding. In 3 months, I've taken 4 First places in various competitions out of 4 competitions... my problem is I need to work on how I handle deadlines. I think that's my biggest downfall, I rush my challenge entries, well because of work and the girlfriend etc.
I must say im absolutely disgusted at my broken challenge, as its way better than my top rated photo. And I didnt even rush! I just can't please anyone on this site lol.
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12/13/2004 05:24:23 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by heida:
This is fun looking at
I think I have improved sine I found this site
First 10 challenges 5.7997 - no ribbon
Last 10 challenges 7.1692 - 6 ribbons |
My goodness! Ya but you got talent... |
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12/13/2004 07:02:21 PM · #39 |
4.52
to
7.90
Just a little improvement. Look at the winners, see what worked for them, learn your camera.
-danny |
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12/13/2004 07:32:26 PM · #40 |
i like what john said, that's pretty much my thing too. by technical numbers, i have certainly improved since finding this site; i have learned an incredible amount in the past couple of years. but i am inconsistant in my scoring, and i'm pretty sure i know why--because i have always focused more on the creative/emotional side of photography before the technical side. and as john said, that doesnt always make for pretty pictures that will please the masses. which is totally fine. what is really important to me is creating a photograph that maybe tells a story, and will appeal to even just a small select group of people on a more emotional level. so even though ribbons are cool, and having more would be way cool--i'm most happy when i get chosen as a fave--or a photograph is chosen as a fave.
the scoring process on dpc can be a humbling thing, but we have to remember that it is very general. i find it quite interesting that i sell (locally) as many of some of my lower scoring photos from dpc, as my higher ones. however, dpc is an excellent testing ground--in that you will get straight up opinions on how people react to your stuff--and it is up to you to decide what you want to do with this information.
so how much have i improved? well, on dpc--i have slightly, but not nearly as astoundingly as some--and every day i am seeing an influx of fantastic photographers, making the competition even more stiff. locally i seem to thrive a little better, even though i am terribly lazy at marketing myself. during this past year i did many band photoshoots, as well as photoshoots for volcom records and electric sunglasses. i did two cd covers and jackets and am booked for a third, and had two prints juried into a local art exhibition where they hung in a gallery for half of this past year (and sold)--um, what else. i sold around 40 framed prints (with a few more on order for christmas). i've done several portrait sessions, (even more for christmas) and have even been sucked into doing two weddings--which i generally try to avoid, but these are friends i couldnt say no to--and besides, julia's (grigrigirl) wedding shots give me hope. :)
so i have had a pretty fun year and i am excited that people are receptive to my burgeoning art--but i have to say--my very favorite part of this year's accomplishments came last week while getting my hair done. my girl asked how i felt about trading out my cut and highlights for a framed print of peek. considering it normally costs me about $150 to get my hair done--i thought to myself, "this is it man, i have arrived!" ;) |
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12/13/2004 07:58:39 PM · #41 |
Wow, I didn't think I'd come up with this:
Average score for first 11 challenges : 5.188
Average score for last 12 challenges : 5.184
I've only taken part in 23 challenges, but wow, that's pretty much even keel :) I feel like I'm getting better, but my yellow submission's score proves me wrong, as it well below both of the above averages! I know that's I've learned much, though. I'm just waiting for it to trickle down to my shutter finger! |
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12/13/2004 08:03:19 PM · #42 |
I don't contribute much to the actual "Challenge" part of this site. I pay 'cause I like the interaction and enjoy the community. There are people on here whose work is inspiring to me in any number of ways. I've decided to spend my energy working on portraits since I got my 10D back in July of '03 and even though I don't submit much to the challenge I think you can see some of the changes I've gone through.
This was submitted for my first challenge. I lived and died with the scores and soaked up the comments and critiques on this.
Uninteresting shot submitted for another challenge at the end of the summer '03.
It was difficult to hear but at least I've gone on to make some better images with the help and direction of others.
submitted for last December Free Study
submitted for October Free Study
Three portraits for models' portfolios:
My score doesn't show too much improvement but I'm much happier with my consistency and I'm starting to feel like I'm adding more of my own vision; I'm starting to see shots before I take them. Maybe I'm a slower learner than others when it comes to envisioning emotive, evocative photographs but (A) taking shots and (B) putting photos out there for people to critique and comment on honestly really can be a boon to this pursuit.
Kev
EDIT: got the wrong photo for one of my examples.
Message edited by author 2004-12-13 20:06:04.
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12/13/2004 08:04:58 PM · #43 |
First 5 Challenges
Average Score: 4.6182
Average Percentile: 25%
Favorites: 0
Last 6 Challenges
Average Score: 5.304
Average Percentile: 48%
Favorites: 6
I'd say I got a little better -- but I hope to get A LOT better heh.
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12/13/2004 08:12:28 PM · #44 |
Newbie with only 4 entries...
First two entries:
3.960
67% 4 or less
1% 8 or higher
0 favorites
Last two entries (after setting some goals and seeing some profiles, i.e. scalvert):
5.684
21% 4 or less
12% 8 or higher
4 favourites
Still have a ton of room to improve and am currently working on 2005 goals.
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12/13/2004 08:13:08 PM · #45 |
First 10 challenges average: 5.5932, 12 favourites.
Last 10 challenges: 6.2569, 27 favourites.
I'm happy.
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12/13/2004 08:55:19 PM · #46 |
First 10 challenges:
Average: 5.8802
Coeff. Of Var.: 0.125
Last 10:
Average: 6.3424
Coeff. Of Var.: 0.157
A linear fit thru a plot of all my scores gives very close to the same start/end points. I'm actually surprised there is that much difference, and very pleasantly so, I might add! =)
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12/13/2004 09:06:11 PM · #47 |
First ten challenges/Last Ten challenges:
4.94/5.54
37th percentile/68th percentile
106 comments/109 comments
no ribbons/no ribbons
0 favorites/2 favorites
A slow learner to be sure, but there is little doubt that I am getting better. DPC can be a little tough some times, but the benefits are real. |
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12/13/2004 09:26:56 PM · #48 |
I've only entered 12 challenges:
1 - 3:
Average vote: 6.44
Average comments: 20.3
Average views: 942
Ribbons: 1
4 - 12
Average vote: 5.55
Average comments: 12.1
Average views: 110
Ribbons: 0
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