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 12/13/2004 02:28:47 PM · #1
As a second time submitter (and fairly new to the joys of photography), I thought it might be interesting to hear from the excellent photographers, the seasoned veterans who have actually received a ribbon. What was your first couple of challenge results? Did submitting to a challenge and reading the comments help you, or did it have more to do with taking more pictures, or was it some other factor?

I think anybody can respond, I mentioned the ribbon as a possible qualification for those who would ask for a definition of an expert. But for all on this site, taking great photos, please regale us with stories of your youth.
 12/13/2004 02:32:16 PM · #2
As listed in my profile:

This site was created as a learning tool for improving photographic skills. It appears to work:

My First 25 Challenges
Avg score: 5.798
Avg place: 59
Ribbons: 0
Favorites: 14

My Second 25 Challenges
Avg score: 6.4327
Avg place: 22
Ribbons: 6
Favorites: 170

Thanks, DPC! Looking forward to the next 25... ;-)
 12/13/2004 02:34:22 PM · #3
Well, some of us are untrainable ;)
 12/13/2004 02:39:05 PM · #4
My First 2 Challenges
Avg score: 4.456
Avg percentile: 22
Ribbons: 0
Favorites: 2

My Last 3 Challenges
Avg score: 5.947
Avg percentile: 73
Ribbons: 0
Favorites: 1

haha - i just posted in some other thread about statistical relevance.. maybe i shouldn't even be participating in this one ;p
edit: (for those who don't look at my profile, i'm not just choosing randomly - somehow i managed to only enter 5 challenges in the past year :\)

Message edited by author 2004-12-13 14:43:49.
 12/13/2004 02:40:12 PM · #5
Originally posted by scalvert:
As listed in my profile:

This site was created as a learning tool for improving photographic skills. It appears to work:

My First 25 Challenges
Avg score: 5.798
Avg place: 59
Ribbons: 0
Favorites: 14

My Second 25 Challenges
Avg score: 6.4327
Avg place: 22
Ribbons: 6
Favorites: 170

Thanks, DPC! Looking forward to the next 25... ;-)


Actually scalvert, your profile is what got me thinking about the topic.
 12/13/2004 02:48:06 PM · #6
Originally posted by nshapiro:
Well, some of us are untrainable ;)


I hear ya man. :)
 12/13/2004 02:50:01 PM · #7
we have an all-rebel thread so far. guess nobody else likes us :(
 12/13/2004 02:52:21 PM · #8
I joined this site on August 1st (the day I decided to pursue photography as a hobby) and submitted this photo:



I've learned a lot over the last 3 months. The technical stuff has been incredibly helpful and I've since bought a digital rebel.

But be careful what you learn about preferences and/or style, a lot of that information is site-specific...
12/13/2004 02:52:56 PM · #9
I've improved a lot not only with the challenges but with looking at other peoples profiles and try to do the same effects people have. I guess that is the major thing that helped me improve, and i guess that these tutorials that i'm making now will help even more. This is not on the dpc challenge the tutorials.


12/13/2004 02:55:08 PM · #10
Originally posted by orussell:
Originally posted by nshapiro:
Well, some of us are untrainable ;)


I hear ya man. :)

yep, some of us are just here for the beer
 12/13/2004 02:55:52 PM · #11
I learnt quite a bit. I finished twice in top 20 from my 7 challenges entered, with 5 favorites.


Message edited by author 2004-12-13 15:00:11.
 12/13/2004 02:56:38 PM · #12
My 1st entry: 5.159
My 10th entry: 7.192

I guess I learned something...
 12/13/2004 03:00:18 PM · #13
giega: just curious, what lens did you use on the dripping water picture?
 12/13/2004 03:01:25 PM · #14
one of my favorite features of this site is the fact that you can view everyones first submission, up until their most recent.

granted, some profiles encourage me more than others, but its stil a cool feature
 12/13/2004 03:02:55 PM · #15
Originally posted by brianlh:
giega: just curious, what lens did you use on the dripping water picture?


I used Tamron SP AF90mm F/2.8 Di 1:1 Macro lens. I absolutely love it!
 12/13/2004 03:04:22 PM · #16
Originally posted by skiprow:
Originally posted by orussell:
Originally posted by nshapiro:
Well, some of us are untrainable ;)


I hear ya man. :)

yep, some of us are just here for the beer


Well I had to calculate it:

First 25 Avg. Score 5.417
Second 25 Avg. Score 5.651
Current Avg. Score 5.4804

By my calculations I'm getting worse. And I don't even drink beer.
 12/13/2004 03:11:53 PM · #17
I entered my first challenge about four days after buying my first camera. I got a 5.4 score and a lot of the comments was geared towards the manmade objects in the shot. What I learnt was to be aware of all elements in an image and make sure things that shouldnt be in the shot are not in the shot. In the following five challenges I received my only four scores so far (touch wood) and learnt to avoid last minute entries just for the sake of entering, although I forget that lesson every so often. It took nine challenges to get my first six score and I think in part because it was so weird. Looking back on it now I could have done so many things differently. Took me 15 challenges to get my first ribbon, which I believe was due to luck and a low scoring challenge. After that I flitted between 5's and 6's. I think I improved fairly quickly in the beginning just because there was so much to correct. Background elements, straight horizons, lighting etc are all fundamental and once you've got them down it makes it a lot easier.

My First 25 Challenges
Avg score: 5.784
Avg percent: 65%
Ribbons: 1
Favorites: 37

Last 25 Challenges
Avg score: 6.46
Avg percent: 86%
Ribbons: 4
Favorites: 144

Looks like I've improved a little.

Message edited by author 2004-12-13 15:13:30.
 12/13/2004 03:12:00 PM · #18
ahhh, thanks.. i'm hoping to get some new glass this holiday season (although i'm not sure it will be anything that expensive quite yet)
 12/13/2004 03:21:01 PM · #19
My take on this is quite different. I have never found learning to be a linear line. I simply have images that I want to present and I realize that while some are strong, the majority are not. Yet, I value self expression first. If I feel I want to show it, I do.

My main reason to join this site was to unlearn the photoshop romance that blinded me to the pristine alternative of creating similar images in the camera, where they belong and just how I created them prior to PS. Too much photoshop, like anything else is not the best way to go because the viewer is no longer fascinated.

My admiration goes out to Scalvert whose Fairy Tales image floored me for two days. I finally figured it out and he proved my point that in camera images are simply more valuable because they require less interference which usually equals a better image.

Yes, I get in trouble many times because of a thing called perception. Well, perception is close to deception and has nothing to do with reality. The only image which I requested a DQ was one wherein the member pasted the figure on the background. Outside of this, I make it a point to come back to images that challenge my comprehension and work the gray cells until solution is achieved.

It is like I say, if your perception is poor, you will constantly be surprised and proved wrong time after time intil you take the craft/art of photography seriously and explore just how easy it is to fool the lens. You would think the viewer is harder to fool.

Anyway, my congratulations to all, however you measure your improvement. Keep at it but do not be affraid to display an image you like because it may not score the best.

12/13/2004 03:26:04 PM · #20
I guess it's a good thing I don't know how to use PS beyond basic editing. :-D
 12/13/2004 03:31:28 PM · #21
I haven't calculated the exact numbers, but I remember I was struggling to get an average of 5.00 after my first 5 submissions and now I am at an average of 5.76...So I think I have improved in getting a little better scores.

Also for technical skills, I am sure I have improved a lot as compared to when I started submitting to this site in June,2004; only 2 days after I bought a digital camera. If you look at my profile, it says registered sep,2002. That's because someone sent me a link back then and it asked me to login to see that image, so I created a login :D
My last few entries haven't scored all that well ( HumorII and School Days ), but I feel they were technically much better than my other high scoring submissions.

Thanks DPC. I am hoping to improve further and keep submitting.
 12/13/2004 03:47:57 PM · #22
I guess you can say I have improved, just not at the speed of others.

My First Three Challenge Averages
Average Vote: 4.577
Comments: 33
Favorites:0

My Last Three Challenge Average
Average Vote: 5.114
Comments: 16
Favorites: 0

My Personal Best
October Free Study
Average Vote: 6.063
Comments: 23
Favorites: 10

But does this show I̢۪m improving or starting to take pictures that appeal to the mass. I hope it̢۪s not the latter, I feel one should take the picture with emotion not with intent. I don̢۪t want to sale out my passion for photograph for numbers.
Just wanted to add my 2 cents worth.


Message edited by author 2004-12-13 16:06:35.
 12/13/2004 04:19:31 PM · #23
I am getting worse if I judge my performance by DPChallenge standards. Here are my numbers:

Challenges 01-10: AVG Score: 6.4470 - AVG Placement: 13 - PCT: 87
Challenges 11-20: AVG Score: 6.4190 - AVG Placement: 21 - PCT: 86.6
Challenges 21-30: AVG Score: 6.4198 - AVG Placement: 34 - PCT: 82.5
Challenges 31-40: AVG Score: 6.2343 - AVG Placement: 32 - PCT: 80.1
Challenges 41-50: AVG Score: 6.1184 - AVG Placement: 42 - PCT: 77.1
Challenges 51-60: AVG Score: 6.1692 - AVG Placement: 28 - PCT: 78.2
Challenges 61-70: AVG Score: 5.4699 - AVG Placement: 66 - PCT: 54.8
Challenges 71-80: AVG Score: 5.7048 - AVG Placement: 72 - PCT: 69.1
Challenges 81-93: AVG Score: 5.6312 - AVG Placement: 75 - PCT: 60.0

What do these numbers mean?

They mean that I'm getting worse over time :)

What they really mean is something entirely different...

I believe that average scores will fall over time for a lot of people. People who are in the early learning stages of photography will see average scores rise, and then level out. When I joined this site, I had some idea of what good photos were and my scores were good. If you go back and look at any of my first 10 photos and the scores they received, there aren't many of them that would score within a full point of that in the same challenge today. As more people come to this site, higher scores are harder to achieve. One of the primary reasons for this is the number of photos in any given challenge. I don't believe most photos get a fair shake in the voting process when there are over 300 photos in the challenge. When I first started here, 100 in a challenge was a huge number.

Why are my scores falling over time?

That's fairly simple. My personal interest in photography has changed in such a way that my images don't carry the mass appeal that they used to. Is this bad? Good? It's good for me because I really enjoy what I do. It's bad for me where DPChallenge is concerned because my performance here will continue to decline. I also expect my personal interest in photography to continue to change, so it's hard to tell where I will end up in time.

I believe that large numbers of new photographers joining the site every day has a negative impact on scores for the type of photography that *I* enjoy. This is not a complaint... it's just an observation based on my own experience. When I first joined this site, I loved the types of images that do well here... then and today. I was all about technical perfection and visually 'popping' photography. I was not into imagery that carried emotion and a story line at all. I didn't want to spend any time thinking about what the image meant to me or the photographer who shot it. I just wanted to see the pretty pictures.

The scores and feedback that we receive here are fun, none-the-less. However, when we get to a point where we want to pursue some different roads and ideas in photography, how can we get that same validation? When we travel a less-travelled path, we tend to alienate ourselves from the mainstream thinking, which is to be expected.

The answer to this is probably not found anywhere online. I have searched for countless hours trying to find a site with a group of photogrpahers who are on this less-travelled path. I'm looking for people who are more concerned with experimentation than being in a contest for a prize. This type of focus group is where continued feedback needs to come from. DPChallenge is not a 'focus' group. Maybe at some point in time, it will cater to this type of thinking, but I don't forsee it in the immediate future. This site is not about focusing on the oddball ideas or paths that a photographer may take beyond the 'pretty picture'. I suppose I'm just at a stage where the pursuit of the great photograph that I may produce in my life is taking me away from the general consensus.

Let's look at some examples of what I'm talking about:


"Secret Garden"
Score: 5.125
Placed 59 out of 88 (below average)

This photograph is a perfect realization of the idea I started out with. I would not change anything about the execution or post processing of this image. I'm perfectly content with it. In a mainstream environment, this photo meets with much resistance for obvious reasons. The subject choice is offensive to some. The exposure choices I made are offensive to some. The post processing I chose is offensive to some.


"I Am Not Lost"
Score: 4.820
Placed: 273 out of 436

This is another image where I would not change anything about it. This image represents an example of where the challenge itself comes into play. You can't get full validation on any given photograph if the general consensus is that it doesn't meet the challenge. This photo meets that particular challenge because it is 'part' of the whole. It failed miserably, I believe, because it was abstract enough that no one knew what they were looking at.

So, these are two examples of photos that I consider to be 'perfect' and how they performed poorly :)

I find that the best validation I can ever receive is when one of two, or both of these things happen:

1. I get a comment (online or verbal) about how a photo makes someone feel. It can be positive or negative, but if the image strikes an emotional reaction in a way that I had intended, there is some amount of success to be measured from that.

2. Someone buys a print... both of these examples I have posted have been bought more than once, which is probaby the most powerful validation you can get. Someone connects with the image in a way that makes them want to own it. They don't always even know how to describe why or how it affects them that strongly, but it happens.

For me, selling a print is worth more than a 'ribbon'. That satisfaction of knowing that someone liked the image well enough to do that is quite gratifying.

Anyway... I think I may have rambled too much here but I just wanted to share some thoughts :)


12/13/2004 04:23:18 PM · #24
My first 4 challenges averaged 5.2825

my last 4 challenges averaged 4.676

Hmmm, I must be doing something terribly wrong.

I read something lately that relates to what John said. It was directed at photographers (like us) - "It's not your batting average that counts, it's your homeruns"

Message edited by author 2004-12-13 16:30:43.
 12/13/2004 04:29:49 PM · #25
Better and appeal to voters are really 2 different things.

Average of first 10: 5.4319, 1 ribbon & 8 favorites.
Average of last 10: 6.4084, 5 ribbons & 87 favorites.

Luck & PS skills

Message edited by author 2004-12-13 20:35:29.
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