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04/06/2010 08:10:45 AM · #1 |
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04/06/2010 08:31:41 AM · #2 |
Originally posted by Timosaby:
Terrible. |
War, in general, is terrible. So are the atrocities that compel us to do what needs to be done to stop them.
Today, we have the benefit of minimizing civilian casualties to an extent because of our video technology, however, there is no way of being 100% right all of the time. These kinds of mistakes wouldn't have been made in WWII or Vietnam. Entire towns and cities were leveled in those wars.
Message edited by author 2010-04-06 08:32:30. |
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04/06/2010 09:20:40 AM · #3 |
I guess one must put oneself in the shoes of the military.
Are you willing to bet your life in a warzone that the guy really had an SLR?
Message edited by author 2010-04-06 09:44:56. |
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04/06/2010 09:38:17 AM · #4 |
Its just hard for me to understand how anyone can open fire at people walking so casually down the street. They looked the farthest thing from militants to me.
Whats also shocking is the military cover up of this incident. Their statement said that "the children were injured by shrapnel" (Not true they were fired at directly and its a miracle they survived)- and that those who were killed were "positively identified as militants who had put the security of Iraq at risk" (a flat out lie - 2 journalists and zero weapons)
I wonder how many other dead civilian were labled as "insurgents" or "militants" as a cover up.
I am not naieve, i know that war is a dirty game, but way to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people.
Jaime, i'm not willing to bet my life on anything, but I would not justify killing innocent people based on a "hunch." |
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04/06/2010 10:26:57 AM · #5 |
Regardless of the war-is-a-necessary-hell aspect, that's a disturbing video. One of the disconnects is the remoteness of the shooters from the victims, and the further remoteness of the command center who gives them permission to "engage." The voices are those of young men and the casualness -- and maybe even pleasure -- of taking human life seems more appropriate to online video gaming.
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04/06/2010 10:35:51 AM · #6 |
Originally posted by citymars:
Regardless of the war-is-a-necessary-hell aspect, that's a disturbing video. One of the disconnects is the remoteness of the shooters from the victims, and the further remoteness of the command center who gives them permission to "engage." The voices are those of young men and the casualness -- and maybe even pleasure -- of taking human life seems more appropriate to online video gaming. |
I certainly did hear pleasure. And I would think that emotions need to be put aside in situations, otherwise no one would ever go to war (which would be a good thing.)
The problem is that you don't know who your enemies are anymore. Soldiers get stoned by children, pregnant women blow themselves and others up. If you want to live, you can't trust anyone anymore. If the bad guys looked like bad guys, war would be much easier. I find it odd that I'm saying this, because I'm very anti-war, and think it's a war we should never have gotten into. That being said, I'm naive enough to think the soldiers are doing the best they can in horribly dangerous, confusing, and stressful situation.
Also, one last thought -- do we know the validity on this? I hadn't heard of this story until now. Is there proof that it really was a camera and not an AK47? I certainly couldn't tell from the video...
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04/06/2010 11:10:07 AM · #7 |
Then you wonder why Iraqis hate Americans and any other soldier in their country out to protect them.
No confirmation of hostility.
No confirmation of weapons.
No confirmation they were going to use non-existent weapons.
No camo
No hiding or any other motion that could be construed as hostility.
Give a bunch of young punks with training a gun and this is what you get.
Anyone who thinks this is just an accident is blind.
I wonder what else goes on that never gets out. The ones that do get out must pale in comparison.
Message edited by author 2010-04-06 11:11:50. |
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04/06/2010 06:15:17 PM · #8 |
| Read here for another analysis |
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04/06/2010 07:30:48 PM · #9 |
I think it is shameful for anyone to take that footage and make assumptions on the motives of our soldiers.
I've never been in battle. I have no idea what it would be like. I thank God that there are young brave volunteers from my country who are willing to go off and do their duty in a foreign land so that I can continue go out to the countryside or the zoo and take pictures without giving my security a second thought.
I know that I saw a long tubular device in that video that was definitely not a camera. I do not know the background behind the location or the reason this group appeared to be congregating. I do know that the enemy uses kids, schools, hospitals, etc as "shields" to facilitate and obfuscate their activities and then they use the bombed out and shot up remains to whip up the emotions of those predisposed to find fault with our guys. I do know that we utilize intelligence before identifying targets. It is a shame we only get a small part of a much larger picture, here. I am skeptical of the lack of information - it appears to be intended to make our guys look bad.
I thank God those voices of our fellow countrymen that I heard were level headed and not hysterical. If you're going to be called on to kill someone, better to be cool headed and minimize the chance for making a tragic mistake, don't you think? Shame on anyone to assume the level-headedness means enjoyment.
I pray our guys come home safe. I pray they can look at themselves in the mirror over the next fifty years and live with the heartbreaking realities of what they are called upon to do here. I pray that one day the rest of us just might be more inclined to give our brave young men the benefit of the doubt rather than assume wrong doing and question their motives.
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04/06/2010 07:45:59 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Read here for another analysis |
That seems like an honest and educated analysis of what happened. Thanks for posting this. |
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04/06/2010 07:48:37 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Read here for another analysis |
I agree this seems to be a good analysis. In war people die. Good people and bad people. Innocent and guilty. This is why we want to avoid war at nearly all costs. You can't release the beast and hope it only affects people directly involved. How many Iraqi civilians have died in this war? A quarter million?
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04/06/2010 07:58:57 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by jjstager2:
I thank God that there are young brave volunteers from my country who are willing to go off and do their duty in a foreign land so that I can continue go out to the countryside or the zoo and take pictures without giving my security a second thought. |
What on earth has the invasion of Iraq got to do with you being able to go to the zoo in Texas?!! Sorry, but thats the most deranged thing i've read in ages.
My opinion is that the invasion of Iraq by the U.S and British troop was morally reprehensible and as such i have as much sympathy for killed Iraqi civilians and their armed forces as i have for killed British or U.S troops.
Originally posted by jjstager2:
Shame on anyone to assume the level-headedness means enjoyment. |
Oh, come on. There have been loads of interviews with troops where they have talked about playing their favourite heavy metal music to get them in 'the zone' as it were, or talking about comparisons between playing combat games and actual killing. Shame on anyone who is so willfully obtuse and naive as to think all soldiers in action are clean thinking, level headed 'heroes'. Jeez! Get your head out of the 1940s war comics fantasy, man!
E.TA- Saying that though, i'm not really aching to get into an argument over this with anyone. It's obvious that my views are totally opposite to some and i don't really see the need to send this thread headlong into Rant over it.
Message edited by author 2010-04-06 20:02:39. |
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04/06/2010 08:04:59 PM · #13 |
ok I am a soldier, (I have actually tried to stay out of this forum) what happened to these photographers was horrible. Any loss of life is. These are peoples sond, daughters, fathers, mothers (I don't know the sex of the killed). Innocent people get killed in war zones. It is horrible but it happens. On the pilots defense, it is extremely hard (using the equipment that he was using) to justifiably distinguish between friend and foe. There are times where it is almost impossible to tell the difference. I speak from experience, having gone to Iraq twice.
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04/06/2010 10:20:21 PM · #14 |
Well its gone mainstream on Yahoo...
//news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20100406/ts_ynews/ynews_ts1490
Interesting piece, especially on the way news is now being reported...
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04/06/2010 11:49:43 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
What on earth has the invasion of Iraq got to do with you being able to go to the zoo in Texas?!! Sorry, but thats the most deranged thing i've read in ages.
My opinion is that the invasion of Iraq by the U.S and British troop was morally reprehensible and as such i have as much sympathy for killed Iraqi civilians and their armed forces as i have for killed British or U.S troops.
Originally posted by jjstager2:
Shame on anyone to assume the level-headedness means enjoyment. |
Oh, come on. There have been loads of interviews with troops where they have talked about playing their favourite heavy metal music to get them in 'the zone' as it were, or talking about comparisons between playing combat games and actual killing. Shame on anyone who is so willfully obtuse and naive as to think all soldiers in action are clean thinking, level headed 'heroes'. Jeez! Get your head out of the 1940s war comics fantasy, man!
E.TA- Saying that though, i'm not really aching to get into an argument over this with anyone. It's obvious that my views are totally opposite to some and i don't really see the need to send this thread headlong into Rant over it. |
Dude,
I truly respect your opinion. I thank every soldier in Iraq and the generations that came before them that you still have the freedom to express it. I pray that one day you will understand why I believe that those soldiers in Iraq today have everything to do with why I feel I can go to the zoo without thinking twice.
One day you will understand why this amateur photographer and father of three boys is convinced that our soldiers are good men doing hard work rather than bad men enjoying despicable work.
I admire your passion. It is, in my opinion, misplaced, right now, and quite green.
Very best wishes to you and all who agree with you. We live in a great country.
BTW, I grew up in the 70's!
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04/07/2010 05:53:05 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by jjstager2:
I truly respect your opinion. I thank every soldier in Iraq and the generations that came before them that you still have the freedom to express it. I pray that one day you will understand why I believe that those soldiers in Iraq today have everything to do with why I feel I can go to the zoo without thinking twice.
One day you will understand why this amateur photographer and father of three boys is convinced that our soldiers are good men doing hard work rather than bad men enjoying despicable work.
I admire your passion. It is, in my opinion, misplaced, right now, and quite green.
Very best wishes to you and all who agree with you. We live in a great country.
BTW, I grew up in the 70's! |
Thanks for the reasoned response. I respect your opinion as well. Like i said, we're pretty much diametrically opposed on this issue i imagine and there is little point in debating it. Best wishes to you as well, but hey! I live in a different country from you! |
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04/07/2010 08:06:27 AM · #17 |
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
Best wishes to you as well, but hey! I live in a different country from you! |
I know. We each do.
Cheers. |
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04/07/2010 09:05:58 AM · #18 |
You know what I think is shameful? That one can't look at a miserably tragic video -- okay, a possibly miserably tragic video, since we don't know the whole story, right? -- and acknowledge the tragedy, and acknowledge that sometimes pressure and training lead men, even one's own countrymen, to behave callously and make mistakes. Instead, one has to resort to tremulous speeches about God and country and brave volunteers and turn it into a flag-waiving us-and-them issue.
I respect and honor our brave volunteers, to me that's a given. |
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04/07/2010 12:05:30 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by Jac:
......a bunch of young punks with training...... |
Seriously offensive way to refer to anyone. |
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04/07/2010 12:43:17 PM · #20 |
I find it comical how sooooo many people that know nothing about the war or have ever been in battle can justifiably sit on there computer's in the comfort of their own work or home and complain about shooting "innocent" civilians. Keep eating what the media is feeding!
Let our boys do the job the best they know how so that you can enjoy your cheesburger!
Message edited by author 2010-04-07 12:44:30.
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04/07/2010 12:47:38 PM · #21 |
BTW, in another news story that I heard on the radio yesterday claimed (who knows if it was true or not) that one of the passengers was indeed carrying an RPG. What you here depends on where you get your news and they are all biased in some way.
Message edited by author 2010-04-07 12:47:49.
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04/07/2010 01:14:24 PM · #22 |
Uhm... what is that war all about? Is it still a war, I thought the war was over, you know, sort of as in announced by the ex prezzy himself. Yet we remain to stabilize a world we destabilized.
Tell you what, there is no reason to convince yourself being a puppet of politics is a worthy cause. Killing people who is no threat to the USA is definitely not a worthy cause and very little to be proud of.
And yes, ask me, I have been there, I paid my due in blood and tears and snot. I ran with my dead buddy over my shoulder for 56 Kilometers playing the apartheid regime's game they chose to ignore. At 19, what the heck do you know? I buried my 10 troops, kids entrusted to me, when their chopper was shot down.
War? Nothing but the authorized release of mass murders by the misled to promote the game of those with no conscience, no regard for human life being it his own people or others. And before you jump on your high horse, defend your reason for being there in Iraq vs not being in the hot spots like Central Africa where to this day the Hutsi and Tusi are exterminating each other, or North Korea the nest of a very dangerous man, in India/Pakistan etc etc. And, dear friend, tell me, who gives you/us the right to tell another country to manage their affairs, not from their inbred cultural frame of reference, but from ours. Who the hell is to say we are right....
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04/07/2010 01:30:52 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by docpjv:
Uhm... what is that war all about? Is it still a war, I thought the war was over, you know, sort of as in announced by the ex prezzy himself. Yet we remain to stabilize a world we destabilized.
Tell you what, there is no reason to convince yourself being a puppet of politics is a worthy cause. Killing people who is no threat to the USA is definitely not a worthy cause and very little to be proud of.
And yes, ask me, I have been there, I paid my due in blood and tears and snot. I ran with my dead buddy over my shoulder for 56 Kilometers playing the apartheid regime's game they chose to ignore. At 19, what the heck do you know? I buried my 10 troops, kids entrusted to me, when their chopper was shot down.
War? Nothing but the authorized release of mass murders by the misled to promote the game of those with no conscience, no regard for human life being it his own people or others. And before you jump on your high horse, defend your reason for being there in Iraq vs not being in the hot spots like Central Africa where to this day the Hutsi and Tusi are exterminating each other, or North Korea the nest of a very dangerous man, in India/Pakistan etc etc. And, dear friend, tell me, who gives you/us the right to tell another country to manage their affairs, not from their inbred cultural frame of reference, but from ours. Who the hell is to say we are right.... |
Very well put. |
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04/07/2010 02:22:17 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by docpjv:
Uhm... what is that war all about? Is it still a war, I thought the war was over, you know, sort of as in announced by the ex prezzy himself. Yet we remain to stabilize a world we destabilized.
Tell you what, there is no reason to convince yourself being a puppet of politics is a worthy cause. Killing people who is no threat to the USA is definitely not a worthy cause and very little to be proud of.
And yes, ask me, I have been there, I paid my due in blood and tears and snot. I ran with my dead buddy over my shoulder for 56 Kilometers playing the apartheid regime's game they chose to ignore. At 19, what the heck do you know? I buried my 10 troops, kids entrusted to me, when their chopper was shot down.
War? Nothing but the authorized release of mass murders by the misled to promote the game of those with no conscience, no regard for human life being it his own people or others. And before you jump on your high horse, defend your reason for being there in Iraq vs not being in the hot spots like Central Africa where to this day the Hutsi and Tusi are exterminating each other, or North Korea the nest of a very dangerous man, in India/Pakistan etc etc. And, dear friend, tell me, who gives you/us the right to tell another country to manage their affairs, not from their inbred cultural frame of reference, but from ours. Who the hell is to say we are right.... |
Good to hear someone's point of view who actually saw it with his eyes. Thank you very much for your input, I sincerely appreciate it. |
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04/07/2010 04:30:35 PM · #25 |
A couple of things to consider relating to this video:
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Geneva Convention
Art. 41. Safeguard of an enemy hors de combat
1. A person who is recognized or who, in the circumstances should be recognized to be hors de combat shall not be made the object of attack.
2. A person is hors de combat if: (a) he is in the power of an adverse Party; (b) he clearly expresses an intention to surrender; or (c) he has been rendered unconscious or is otherwise incapacitated by wounds or sickness, and therefore is incapable of defending himself; provided that in any of these cases he abstains from any hostile act and does not attempt to escape.
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Art. 35. Transports of wounded and sick or of medical equipment shall be respected and protected in the same way as mobile medical units.
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I wonder what the next leaked video from Afghanistan is going to contain. From what I've read, there is something like ~37 civilian deaths which was taped.
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