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03/22/2010 02:36:05 PM · #76 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by scarbrd:
IMO, what probably started out as a little joke has only succeeded in making a mockery of this particular challenge. |
How well do you think those photos are doing? And: at least you're talking about it. ;-) |
Well congratulations for that. |
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03/22/2010 02:41:03 PM · #77 |
Originally posted by scarbrd:
Seems to me a point is being made here outside the spirit of the challenge. |
I think it's within the spirit of the challenge, just a different take on the ordinary expectations for a product challenge. I can tell you that this challenge is now memorable. Would it have been without the abstracts? |
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03/22/2010 02:47:17 PM · #78 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by scarbrd:
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
Originally posted by scarbrd:
IMO, what probably started out as a little joke has only succeeded in making a mockery of this particular challenge.
Well played. :-( |
I can't really see how it makes a mockery of the challenge. The other entries are still there and will still be voted on according to their own merits with regards to the challenge. Plus, as has been stated, the catalogue idea is not in any way DNMC and is just a slightly different take on the challenge, abstract art as product. I also don't think prier collusion is necessarily a bad idea, it has been done numerous times before remember, particularly when the entrants are not voting themselves. |
I've never seen it to this degree where all the entries are named pretty much the same and members decided on a common genre in all their enteries for a given challenge.
Seems to me a point is being made here outside the spirit of the challenge. |
Well since so many times entries run afoul on the spirit of photography and art, this is sort of refreshing. Seriously, what's the issue here besides it being a first? |
Refreshing? cynical maybe, but hardly refreshing.
The problem is, there are 11 entries by my count that all thought so little of this challenge and the people that took it seriously that they decided to use their entries to make a point. By doing so they collectively flipped off all the other members who put time and effort into shooting this challenge.
But again, the most disturbing aspect of this is that there was obviously communications among these folks to discuss about what kind of image to enter and how to title it. There is a big difference in this and asking for help in choosing an entry, editing tips, etc.
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03/22/2010 02:52:32 PM · #79 |
| Submission discussion, and even submission previewing before challenge start, happens all the time. It is not against the rules. What is against the rules is true collusion: voting the eleven like-minded scoundrels up, while voting everyone else down. Since these eleven contributors have categorically stated, even before the broo-ha-ha erupted, that they will not vote in this challenge, there is no cause for alarm. There's nothing that can be done for those people who think they're being insulted except for they themselves to assume good faith on the part of the still-silent miscreants. |
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03/22/2010 02:56:09 PM · #80 |
If we want to talk about the "spirit" of the challenge, consider this:
************
The challenge title is "Product Shot II"
The challenge description is "Take a photograph of a product that might appear in a catalog."
*************
Now, I have DONE product photography, catalog photography. I know what's expected 90% of the time. There's little room for creativity, it's all about clean, sharp, descriptive photos that show the customer exactly what s/he's buying. Sure, some catalogs have also interspersed in them some mood-setting shots, but they are extras, and they are not "product photography".
So go back and take a peek at the original "Product Photography" challenge, and see what kind of work finished at the top. Almost without exception the top 20 are advertising shots, not product shots. They feature a product, but they are not what an ad man or pro shooter would call product photography.
I have no doubt the same will be true in this challenge: the voters will reward glitzy photography over "true" catalog shots. I don't actually have a quarrel with that (it is what it is, after all), but it seems to me vaguely hypocritical to say that the dozen or so individuals who at least made an attempt to create an actual, unadorned CATALOG in this challenge are somehow more contrary to the "spirit" of the challenge than the shooters and voters who totally ignore the description in favor of inserting their own, often well-shot, interpretation of what's a cool cologne bottle or a sexy drink.
Just sayin'....
R. |
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03/22/2010 02:59:32 PM · #81 |
| Oh my! Some hard negotiators in here...probably trying to spur an early half-price spring sale...;-) |
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03/22/2010 03:01:58 PM · #82 |
Originally posted by scarbrd:
But again, the most disturbing aspect of this is that there was obviously communications among these folks to discuss about what kind of image to enter and how to title it. There is a big difference in this and asking for help in choosing an entry, editing tips, etc. |
And if a dozen people got together and said "Hey! Let's all enter abstract photos and call them a "catalog", we can use the titles to link them thematically!" this is somehow a PROBLEM? It seems to me it's a work of conceptual art that's harming nobody and it is interesting to contemplate, intellectually...
R. |
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03/22/2010 03:05:00 PM · #83 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
If we want to talk about the "spirit" of the challenge, consider this:
************
The challenge title is "Product Shot II"
The challenge description is "Take a photograph of a product that might appear in a catalog."
*************
Now, I have DONE product photography, catalog photography. I know what's expected 90% of the time. There's little room for creativity, it's all about clean, sharp, descriptive photos that show the customer exactly what s/he's buying. Sure, some catalogs have also interspersed in them some mood-setting shots, but they are extras, and they are not "product photography".
So go back and take a peek at the original "Product Photography" challenge, and see what kind of work finished at the top. Almost without exception the top 20 are advertising shots, not product shots. They feature a product, but they are not what an ad man or pro shooter would call product photography.
I have no doubt the same will be true in this challenge: the voters will reward glitzy photography over "true" catalog shots. I don't actually have a quarrel with that (it is what it is, after all), but it seems to me vaguely hypocritical to say that the dozen or so individuals who at least made an attempt to create an actual, unadorned CATALOG in this challenge are somehow more contrary to the "spirit" of the challenge than the shooters and voters who totally ignore the description in favor of inserting their own, often well-shot, interpretation of what's a cool cologne bottle or a sexy drink.
Just sayin'....
R. |
No doubt.. Although I would have probably been more amiable to the "abstracts" catalog if they were shown as framed prints.. Of course that would have taken a ridiculous amount of effort.
As for me? I guess I tried to bridge the gap, my shot very well might appear in a catalog, even if it isn't a simple white background.
The major problem I've gotten into with this challenge is that (for lack of being able to be more descriptive) some people don't appreciate that certain things could come as a package, essentially I've gotten a couple of comments criticizing my choice to not employ a homogeneous set of product in my shot.
Ahh, in any case I'm still doing pretty OK with a 5.75 or so...
And for what it is worth, I LOVE people working together to enter a challenge, the overall idea of the Abstract entries is cool, even if I don't particularly like the execution on this particularly one..
Cheers, and keep the group work coming in!! |
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03/22/2010 03:10:17 PM · #84 |
Originally posted by scarbrd:
Refreshing? cynical maybe, but hardly refreshing.
The problem is, there are 11 entries by my count that all thought so little of this challenge and the people that took it seriously that they decided to use their entries to make a point. By doing so they collectively flipped off all the other members who put time and effort into shooting this challenge. |
I'm pretty sure you could find at least 11 people in every challenge who have said screw it I'm entering what I want. This is nothing new.
Originally posted by scarbrd:
But again, the most disturbing aspect of this is that there was obviously communications among these folks to discuss about what kind of image to enter and how to title it. There is a big difference in this and asking for help in choosing an entry, editing tips, etc. |
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. Hardly a huge jump from helping to choose an entry to agreeing to shoot a certain type of entry. Hell, there is even a long list created by Scalvert that tells you what things to shoot in order to do well and these people weren't even trying to win. Maybe that's your biggest beef? |
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03/22/2010 03:10:21 PM · #85 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by scarbrd:
But again, the most disturbing aspect of this is that there was obviously communications among these folks to discuss about what kind of image to enter and how to title it. There is a big difference in this and asking for help in choosing an entry, editing tips, etc. |
And if a dozen people got together and said "Hey! Let's all enter abstract photos and call them a "catalog", we can use the titles to link them thematically!" this is somehow a PROBLEM? It seems to me it's a work of conceptual art that's harming nobody and it is interesting to contemplate, intellectually...
R. |
And what is the motivastion for doing this in a forum where entrants are ostensibly anonymous and are asked to vote on the other entries?
But hey, if no one else has a problem with this then I'll silently fade into the background from whence I came.
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03/22/2010 03:12:03 PM · #86 |
Originally posted by coryboehne:
And for what it is worth, I LOVE people working together to enter a challenge, the overall idea of the Abstract entries is cool, even if I don't particularly like the execution on this particularly one..
Cheers, and keep the group work coming in!! |
You should see what we're planning for the Orange challenge. Each of the 12 shots, or orange 'segments', are intrinsically linked in a certain way that, when de-cyphered, will reveal the location of a golden rabbit worth $1000! buried somewhere in the country. You, know, like, for Easter. |
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03/22/2010 03:15:12 PM · #87 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
If we want to talk about the "spirit" of the challenge, consider this:
************
The challenge title is "Product Shot II"
The challenge description is "Take a photograph of a product that might appear in a catalog."
*************
Now, I have DONE product photography, catalog photography. I know what's expected 90% of the time. There's little room for creativity, it's all about clean, sharp, descriptive photos that show the customer exactly what s/he's buying. Sure, some catalogs have also interspersed in them some mood-setting shots, but they are extras, and they are not "product photography".
So go back and take a peek at the original "Product Photography" challenge, and see what kind of work finished at the top. Almost without exception the top 20 are advertising shots, not product shots. They feature a product, but they are not what an ad man or pro shooter would call product photography.
I have no doubt the same will be true in this challenge: the voters will reward glitzy photography over "true" catalog shots. I don't actually have a quarrel with that (it is what it is, after all), but it seems to me vaguely hypocritical to say that the dozen or so individuals who at least made an attempt to create an actual, unadorned CATALOG in this challenge are somehow more contrary to the "spirit" of the challenge than the shooters and voters who totally ignore the description in favor of inserting their own, often well-shot, interpretation of what's a cool cologne bottle or a sexy drink.
Just sayin'....
R. |
This bears_music repeating. |
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03/22/2010 03:20:41 PM · #88 |
Originally posted by scarbrd:
And what is the motivastion for doing this in a forum where entrants are ostensibly anonymous ... |
I'm curious where/how the collaboration took place. I didn't see anything in the forums...
I guess if they collaborated on this project "off-line" then the anonymity is still intact (we don't know for sure who they are). The only thing that slightly bothers me, and all of this "conversation", is that a certain category of image (as a group) is being discussed. Some may want to "help" this group and cast higher votes to applaud their efforts (and sympathetically offset the DNMC votes) regardless of image quality or challenge theme adherence. |
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03/22/2010 03:25:54 PM · #89 |
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
Originally posted by coryboehne:
And for what it is worth, I LOVE people working together to enter a challenge, the overall idea of the Abstract entries is cool, even if I don't particularly like the execution on this particularly one..
Cheers, and keep the group work coming in!! |
You should see what we're planning for the Orange challenge. Each of the 12 shots, or orange 'segments', are intrinsically linked in a certain way that, when de-cyphered, will reveal the location of a golden rabbit worth $1000! buried somewhere in the country. You, know, like, for Easter. |
Which country? I might want to be part of this, if it is the right country, mind you. |
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03/22/2010 03:31:11 PM · #90 |
Originally posted by ursula:
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
Originally posted by coryboehne:
And for what it is worth, I LOVE people working together to enter a challenge, the overall idea of the Abstract entries is cool, even if I don't particularly like the execution on this particularly one..
Cheers, and keep the group work coming in!! |
You should see what we're planning for the Orange challenge. Each of the 12 shots, or orange 'segments', are intrinsically linked in a certain way that, when de-cyphered, will reveal the location of a golden rabbit worth $1000! buried somewhere in the country. You, know, like, for Easter. |
Which country? I might want to be part of this, if it is the right country, mind you. |
Sadly that was my fancy talking. It's a fun idea though, a collaborative art piece that comes together as a whole. Perhaps an idea for a side challenge though. |
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03/22/2010 03:34:45 PM · #91 |
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
Originally posted by ursula:
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
Originally posted by coryboehne:
And for what it is worth, I LOVE people working together to enter a challenge, the overall idea of the Abstract entries is cool, even if I don't particularly like the execution on this particularly one..
Cheers, and keep the group work coming in!! |
You should see what we're planning for the Orange challenge. Each of the 12 shots, or orange 'segments', are intrinsically linked in a certain way that, when de-cyphered, will reveal the location of a golden rabbit worth $1000! buried somewhere in the country. You, know, like, for Easter. |
Which country? I might want to be part of this, if it is the right country, mind you. |
Sadly that was my fancy talking. It's a fun idea though, a collaborative art piece that comes together as a whole. Perhaps an idea for a side challenge though. |
Oh bummer! :)
But it does sound like a good idea for a different kind of challenge. |
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03/22/2010 03:36:28 PM · #92 |
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
You should see what we're planning for the Orange challenge. Each of the 12 shots, or orange 'segments', are intrinsically linked in a certain way that, when de-cyphered, will reveal the location of a golden rabbit worth $1000! buried somewhere in the country. You, know, like, for Easter. |
For whatever heinous reasons it (Abstract catalogue) was conceived, and for whatever its truly tragic results, I think we should be grateful for it spawning c_p_n's plan to expand the parameters of a dpc challenge in a truly sporting manner. |
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03/22/2010 03:39:18 PM · #93 |
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
Originally posted by ursula:
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
Originally posted by coryboehne:
And for what it is worth, I LOVE people working together to enter a challenge, the overall idea of the Abstract entries is cool, even if I don't particularly like the execution on this particularly one..
Cheers, and keep the group work coming in!! |
You should see what we're planning for the Orange challenge. Each of the 12 shots, or orange 'segments', are intrinsically linked in a certain way that, when de-cyphered, will reveal the location of a golden rabbit worth $1000! buried somewhere in the country. You, know, like, for Easter. |
Which country? I might want to be part of this, if it is the right country, mind you. |
Sadly that was my fancy talking. It's a fun idea though, a collaborative art piece that comes together as a whole. Perhaps an idea for a side challenge though. |
This reminds me of a challenge idea I had a while back called "Mosaic" where voters would be asked to vote on how well each entry contributed to the whole. |
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03/22/2010 03:57:21 PM · #94 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Some may want to "help" this group and cast higher votes to applaud their efforts (and sympathetically offset the DNMC votes) regardless of image quality or challenge theme adherence. |
I *really* don't think we need to worry about that, or at least not any more than we need to worry about ANY off-the-wall entry getting unearned high scores. I mean, I tend to give high votes to blurry, enigmatic images (I like 'em!) that don't have a prayer of winning, but nobody seems to mind. So why should anybody mind if these "abstracts" get a few high scores apiece? I absolutely GUARANTEE you none of 'em will make front page, and I'd be astonished if any of them even break 4.5 :-)
R. |
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03/22/2010 04:11:32 PM · #95 |
I really dont understand these entries at all, its just beyond me.
Whatever, I have an uneasy feeling about this type of organised action, it does not sit well with me at all.
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03/22/2010 04:25:32 PM · #96 |
Originally posted by pedrobop:
I don't think i'm getting the difference between stock and catalog photography. I should take a photo of some product, like advertising photo...right? |
I see a few pictures in the challenge that look as though they might be good advertising shots, but not good catalogue shots. |
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03/22/2010 04:27:19 PM · #97 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Some may want to "help" this group and cast higher votes to applaud their efforts (and sympathetically offset the DNMC votes) regardless of image quality or challenge theme adherence. |
I *really* don't think we need to worry about that, or at least not any more than we need to worry about ANY off-the-wall entry getting unearned high scores. I mean, I tend to give high votes to blurry, enigmatic images (I like 'em!) that don't have a prayer of winning, but nobody seems to mind. So why should anybody mind if these "abstracts" get a few high scores apiece? I absolutely GUARANTEE you none of 'em will make front page, and I'd be astonished if any of them even break 4.5 :-)
R. |
Well, I am not breaking a 4.5 and mine isn't one of those....LOL. Oh well...such is life in photography. |
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03/22/2010 04:29:34 PM · #98 |
Originally posted by colorcarnival:
Originally posted by scarbrd:
Seems to me a point is being made here outside the spirit of the challenge. |
There's a product in mine and it was shot in a different style. Not sure how that is mocking anything or working outside of the spirit of the challenge. Also, the challenge description did not specify what type of catalog. It doesn't say, blah blah, typical catalog... and I don't think all catalogs look the same in the world either.
Why are people being such Debbie Downers about this? The scores are where you'd expect to find them so things are still par for the course. I just don't get why people feel the need to say so much negative stuff. |
.....
.....
Honestly I've thought about this for a few a while now, and I think I have an answer as to the "WHY" people are being negative about this.
So as I see it there are two very different view points:
ViewPoint 1:
I interpreted the challenge description and it didn't in any way say that I couldn't do this. I like being creative and this feels creative and fun to me.
ViewPoint 2:
I did my best to create an image that a client would buy if he described a job to me in the same terms as the challenge description. I like to meet the requirements and do my best to meet the original vision.
Now, see how both of those look perfectly valid? That's because they are! But they are not equal in terms of sociological effect.
However, let's stop to think for a minute about the purpose of having challenges that are not free studies, essentially it is to create a playing field where apples are being judged against apples, and oranges, bananas and pears are simply not welcome... (no worries they'll probably have their own challenge! And they're always welcome at the mixer (free study).).
So why all the exclusivity? It's called dilution, essentially when you have a non-unified approach to a challenge (in this case some are trying to come as close to the challenge description as possible, while others are trying to stray as far as they can possibly rationalize) that lack of unity creates a diluted feeling.
To use an analogy, car shows almost always have different "categories" for people to enter.. For example, Low Rider, Trucks, Muscle Car, Exotic, etc..
Now no-one will deny that a Ferrari is a very "Muscle" rich car, but clearly no-one is going to enter one in the Muscle Car part of the show, why? Because it would be impossible to fairly judge it. Same thing for an El Camino, this could clearly go into the Low Rider, Truck or Muscle Car category, which one would probably depend on the treatment of the El Camino, in other words, which one fits best?
It's really the same with challenge descriptions, we should try to create an image that really fits in the challenge, it seems to have become so commonplace to shoehorn entries in that  Yo_Spiff has stopped giving away shoehorns.. Clearly a bad sign.
No-One really (ok except trolls) wants to give out bad scores, all normal people actually want to LIKE these photos, that's why we're here!!! The big issue that really makes this frustrating for me is that I fit the second personality described here, I like to meet challenges as well as I can... I usually have a ton of really cool OOB ideas that would be fun, but they will require a ton of rationalization to fit the challenge, and I don't think a client would purchase it if they described a job as the challenge is being described.
So I really do beg of all of you, find a way to be OOB while avoiding the need for a rationalization of how your entry meets the challenge, there is a very real sociological reason behind this..
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03/22/2010 04:30:25 PM · #99 |
Originally posted by ursula:
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
Originally posted by coryboehne:
And for what it is worth, I LOVE people working together to enter a challenge, the overall idea of the Abstract entries is cool, even if I don't particularly like the execution on this particularly one..
Cheers, and keep the group work coming in!! |
You should see what we're planning for the Orange challenge. Each of the 12 shots, or orange 'segments', are intrinsically linked in a certain way that, when de-cyphered, will reveal the location of a golden rabbit worth $1000! buried somewhere in the country. You, know, like, for Easter. |
Which country? I might want to be part of this, if it is the right country, mind you. |
Madagascar, between the land mines. |
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03/22/2010 04:49:07 PM · #100 |
Who cares why these folks did this? I mean really... It's a Product challenge...
Vote it as you would any other challenge. I'm sure these folks weren't expecting tens... they're just having fun.
And who does it really hurt, anyway? If anyone, it's the entrants' own scores that suffer. I'm sure they knew that going in...
I just don't understand the hubbub about it.
Live and let live, folks.
Life is good. Enjoy it! |
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