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02/17/2010 12:19:14 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by smardaz:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
I recently read somewhere that the new governor in the USA had posed for some rather riske photos |
huh? |
Sorry, should have said the new senator for the State of Massachusetts... Hope that clarifies things a bit.
Ray |
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02/17/2010 12:36:57 PM · #27 |
Tough... It's a change to the orig contract and neither party HAS to agree to conditions not in the orig.....
If you WANT to you can kick her a price to buy the exclusive rights or even copyright... but I suspect that would not be cheap. I do think there should be a payment because you lose the ability to use the images which is why you did a TFCD type of deal in the first place. You could also have her pay your normal fees for such a session with or without a higher fee.
The other side of the coin is what the others have been saying.... is the non contract portion of the thing. Would you get a bad name? Would you feel guilty or whatever? Each person is different and therefore would get a different answer.... IMO neither position is wrong as it's a personal decision and possibly a business judgment of the harm to go against what she wants.
Message edited by author 2010-02-17 12:37:52. |
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02/17/2010 12:45:53 PM · #28 |
No comment - no need to turn this thread political
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by smardaz:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
I recently read somewhere that the new governor in the USA had posed for some rather riske photos |
huh? |
Sorry, should have said the new senator for the State of Massachusetts... Hope that clarifies things a bit.
Ray |
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02/17/2010 01:05:37 PM · #29 |
The tricky thing about coming up *now* and saying, "well, I'll remove them all, but you would need to pay me" (and yes, please word it more diplomatically than that) is that she may feel like it is extortion.
This situation, as with many others, have the "legal" thing you can do, and a "right" thing you can do. They may be one in the same. Perhaps if you could sit down with her and calmly, gently explain why you are coming up on the short end of the stick by getting rid of her pics you could come to some amicable, win/win situation. |
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02/17/2010 01:29:02 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by karmat:
The tricky thing about coming up *now* and saying, "well, I'll remove them all, but you would need to pay me" (and yes, please word it more diplomatically than that) is that she may feel like it is extortion.
This situation, as with many others, have the "legal" thing you can do, and a "right" thing you can do. They may be one in the same. Perhaps if you could sit down with her and calmly, gently explain why you are coming up on the short end of the stick by getting rid of her pics you could come to some amicable, win/win situation. |
Reading this post, my first thought was that if you liked the way she modeled, this may be turned into an opportunity for you to have a model for free sometime in the near future.
It would not exactly be for free, as you may both win by allowing her to have the images in question for her modeling for you for x number of future shoots. It would be better than just pulling the plug and dumping the shots, or posting them for sale against her wishes and causing bad feelings on both sides.
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02/17/2010 01:41:09 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by JulietNN:
Originally posted by albc28:
Thank you for all your help, but I think just talking it out cleared my head on what I should do. |
so what are you going to do? |
Something similar to this happened before. The model took the photos then got offered another job and was worried that the photos she took would hurt her chances. She wanted me to delete all the photos. But this was before she got compensation, before I edited a photo or anything. I asked her to wait to I edited the photos and in the end we compromised....well actually she and her agency were happy with the photos and there was no need to delete any.
In this case, I'm going to compromise. I won't use the 1 or 2 photos which would be deemed risque...but I should be able to use the photos that aren't in that category. If she still would like more to not be used then I will charge her my normal session fee, price for the photos she did receive, and a charge for the editing. Then there will be a small administrative charge for the time spent redoing all the portfolios I posted them on (my website is not easy to update, which is why i took so long to do so!). |
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02/17/2010 01:41:57 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by MelonMusketeer:
Originally posted by karmat:
The tricky thing about coming up *now* and saying, "well, I'll remove them all, but you would need to pay me" (and yes, please word it more diplomatically than that) is that she may feel like it is extortion.
This situation, as with many others, have the "legal" thing you can do, and a "right" thing you can do. They may be one in the same. Perhaps if you could sit down with her and calmly, gently explain why you are coming up on the short end of the stick by getting rid of her pics you could come to some amicable, win/win situation. |
Reading this post, my first thought was that if you liked the way she modeled, this may be turned into an opportunity for you to have a model for free sometime in the near future.
It would not exactly be for free, as you may both win by allowing her to have the images in question for her modeling for you for x number of future shoots. It would be better than just pulling the plug and dumping the shots, or posting them for sale against her wishes and causing bad feelings on both sides. |
Have her model again for me for free? Then she can get photos from those shoots and change her mind again? I'll passon that one. |
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02/17/2010 01:45:48 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by ragamuffingirl:
I believe that legally speaking - if she gave her permission, she can take it back. To make it a legal issue, she might have to put it in writing, but still... |
Thank you for reminding me of my business law course that I'm taking now.
Technically the Model release is a written contract. Once she received her compensation the contract has been executed. So she can't go back and change her mind after words. Well...she can, but at that point it would be a new contract (does that make sense?). |
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02/17/2010 01:53:07 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by karmat:
The tricky thing about coming up *now* and saying, "well, I'll remove them all, but you would need to pay me" (and yes, please word it more diplomatically than that) is that she may feel like it is extortion.
This situation, as with many others, have the "legal" thing you can do, and a "right" thing you can do. They may be one in the same. Perhaps if you could sit down with her and calmly, gently explain why you are coming up on the short end of the stick by getting rid of her pics you could come to some amicable, win/win situation. |
Originally posted by MelonMusketeer:
Reading this post, my first thought was that if you liked the way she modeled, this may be turned into an opportunity for you to have a model for free sometime in the near future.
It would not exactly be for free, as you may both win by allowing her to have the images in question for her modeling for you for x number of future shoots. It would be better than just pulling the plug and dumping the shots, or posting them for sale against her wishes and causing bad feelings on both sides. |
The idea that this person could be dealt with reasonably and rationally seems to me to be a definite forgone conclusion.
She cannot be, and any further work with her would be simply asking for trouble.
Though in principle, you should tell her she should think more before she acts and there's no grounds for her to approach you at all, I think I'd tell her I'd scrap the images, remind her that she caused you a bunch of lost time and aggravation, and *never* call again.
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02/17/2010 01:56:47 PM · #35 |
| I think if she wants the photos to be for her private use only then it's perfectly fair (not extortion) to ask her to pay your standard charges for a portrait session, but not more. |
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02/17/2010 01:57:33 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by albc28:
Originally posted by ragamuffingirl:
I believe that legally speaking - if she gave her permission, she can take it back. To make it a legal issue, she might have to put it in writing, but still... |
Thank you for reminding me of my business law course that I'm taking now.
Technically the Model release is a written contract. Once she received her compensation the contract has been executed. So she can't go back and change her mind after words. Well...she can, but at that point it would be a new contract (does that make sense?). |
I think that's the kicker right there. You delivered on your end and then she changed her mind. She doesn't want you using the pictures? No problem...so long as she doesn't use them either.
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02/17/2010 02:11:54 PM · #37 |
| "Vanity, definitely my favorite sin." |
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02/17/2010 04:10:23 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by albc28:
Originally posted by ragamuffingirl:
I believe that legally speaking - if she gave her permission, she can take it back. To make it a legal issue, she might have to put it in writing, but still... |
Thank you for reminding me of my business law course that I'm taking now.
Technically the Model release is a written contract. Once she received her compensation the contract has been executed. So she can't go back and change her mind after words. Well...she can, but at that point it would be a new contract (does that make sense?). |
Ye, you can point to the contract... the question is, do you want to? In cases like this, you stand to gain nothing. Perhaps less than nothing. All you'll get is a black eye, and in the end, if she pushes back, you'll end up with attorney's fees in addition to your lost time.
The sane thing to do is to first tell her you will ditch the photos. Then be gentle but very frank with her about the lost time and effort on your part, and courteously ask her not to contact you for further work.
If she has any aspirations in the business world, photos like this could be a *huge* impediment to getting hired. I think she realized this after the shoot, perhaps someone talked with her about the risks and scared her. In any case, it is not something you want to muck around with! |
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02/17/2010 08:12:26 PM · #39 |
Honor her wishes, it the gentleman thing to do. You may have lost a month of work but you gained a life-time lesson.
In the future I would go beyond a just a model release to include a legal contract. If your not already do so.
Message edited by author 2010-02-17 20:17:18.
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02/17/2010 08:46:50 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by kirbic:
All you'll get is a black eye ... |
You know, that cuts both ways. If she's so hot to go on to great things, it won't look too good for people to know she's not willing fulfill her commitments, or at least make up for the trouble caused. If she's not willing to compensate you for your time, I'd be very tempted to take down the photos and replace them with the story you told at the beginning of this thread. |
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02/17/2010 09:03:26 PM · #41 |
Let it go. She's a girl who got in a little over her head. She told herself that this was the type of thing that models need to do and tried talking herself into it. She's uncomfortable thinking about having the world (and probably her family) see her in her underwear. That is understandable. Have a heart and let her off the hook and chalk it up to experience. And figure out what to do next time. Because I assume this type of thing happens a lot with girls.
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02/17/2010 09:06:29 PM · #42 |
Look, honor her request. She realizes she made a mistake and regrets ALL the photos you took of her. If you started this thread to be told its OK to keep them posted you came to the right place. Naturally there will be some here to oblige. But, many others have said you should remove them and they are the ones you should listen to. What if this was your daughter? Would you delete them for her? Ask the dpc to del them too. I bet they will if you explain the situation. You talk of a release, how legal is it....any witnesses? Its really not a legal issue when you balance it with your conscience. Can you live with hurting this young lady? Obviously some here can, but you should "do the right thing" and remove the photos at once before any more damage is done. There are plenty others more than willing to pose any way you like. Use the services of one of them if you must. Taking a hard line approach here starts you down a slippery slope. Pretty soon other grey area decisions will all be made in your favor and there you will be...a person where your time and money will be the most important things in your life, to hell with whats morally right.(..and this has nothing to do with religion). If she has copies, ask for them back.
Do the right thing. You will feel better for it. |
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02/17/2010 09:07:49 PM · #43 |
| Way to go general....you da man. |
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02/17/2010 09:40:24 PM · #44 |
Do you enjoy drama like this in your life?
If you don't loose her number.... grow some balls, tell her never to contact you again... |
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02/17/2010 10:09:25 PM · #45 |
she thinks she has made a mistake
think about your biggest mistakes - consider the ones you have yet to make
sow yourself some good karma and just leave it |
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02/18/2010 02:18:44 AM · #46 |
Originally posted by jeger:
Originally posted by albc28:
Originally posted by CoreyFitz:
Originally posted by citymars:
Out of respect for your model's wishes, I'm not clicking on the thumbnail. :-) |
I found it kind of strange that you would post one of her pictures on this thread with the response you have gotten from EVERYONE on this. |
It doesn't matter, because I can't delete it from DPC. If you read, it was already entered in a challenge. Which means its permanently in my portfolio, which means whether I post it here or not, it doesn't make a difference. |
You can ask SC to have it removed if you choose to do so. |
Not a chance of that happening. If you have a legally signed release I doubt very much they would do anything about it. |
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02/18/2010 02:21:49 AM · #47 |
| Be very careful of how you agree not to use the photos on the web. An email is generally accepted legally despite there being no real signature. So if you agree to never use the photos you have just released her from her release. Also make sure if you do go that route to say "from this point forward" so that if she does see the photo on here she cannot sue you later, or better yet tell her that it is here, you were legally ok to use the photo in the challenge. |
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02/18/2010 07:36:02 AM · #48 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Look, honor her request. She realizes she made a mistake and regrets ALL the photos you took of her. If you started this thread to be told its OK to keep them posted you came to the right place. Naturally there will be some here to oblige. But, many others have said you should remove them and they are the ones you should listen to. What if this was your daughter? Would you delete them for her? Ask the dpc to del them too. I bet they will if you explain the situation. You talk of a release, how legal is it....any witnesses? Its really not a legal issue when you balance it with your conscience. Can you live with hurting this young lady? Obviously some here can, but you should "do the right thing" and remove the photos at once before any more damage is done. There are plenty others more than willing to pose any way you like. Use the services of one of them if you must. Taking a hard line approach here starts you down a slippery slope. Pretty soon other grey area decisions will all be made in your favor and there you will be...a person where your time and money will be the most important things in your life, to hell with whats morally right.(..and this has nothing to do with religion). If she has copies, ask for them back.
Do the right thing. You will feel better for it. |
Let's talk about doing the right thing. Take all the smoke, mirrors, & hyperbole out of the equation, and discuss this so that all of us know what to do, and what it is that we can expect from our work.
As it seems to me, *any* time, for *any* reason, it seems that some *poor girl* who changes her mind, regardless of the fatc that she knowingly, and willingly, entered inot an agreement to model, has the ability to ask a photog to "Do the right thing", and scrap all his/her work.
That's what I should keep in mind any time I rent some equipment, rent studio space, sit down and discuss the event, in detail, procur a signature on a release, spend hours on the shoot, and more hours editing, show the model proofs and get the nod for acceptibility, that I may have to scrap it all months down the road because she changes her mind?
Someone please explain to me how this person having no responsibility, or accountability, to the agreement she made, and then expecting NOT to be "extorted" for compensation for the wasted time and money, is "Doing the right thing.".
If that's the case, why would anyone take the risk as a photographer?
I'm trying to figure out how this extremely one-sided thing is equitable on any level.
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02/18/2010 07:51:13 AM · #49 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by David Ey:
Look, honor her request. She realizes she made a mistake and regrets ALL the photos you took of her. If you started this thread to be told its OK to keep them posted you came to the right place. Naturally there will be some here to oblige. But, many others have said you should remove them and they are the ones you should listen to. What if this was your daughter? Would you delete them for her? Ask the dpc to del them too. I bet they will if you explain the situation. You talk of a release, how legal is it....any witnesses? Its really not a legal issue when you balance it with your conscience. Can you live with hurting this young lady? Obviously some here can, but you should "do the right thing" and remove the photos at once before any more damage is done. There are plenty others more than willing to pose any way you like. Use the services of one of them if you must. Taking a hard line approach here starts you down a slippery slope. Pretty soon other grey area decisions will all be made in your favor and there you will be...a person where your time and money will be the most important things in your life, to hell with whats morally right.(..and this has nothing to do with religion). If she has copies, ask for them back.
Do the right thing. You will feel better for it. |
Let's talk about doing the right thing. Take all the smoke, mirrors, & hyperbole out of the equation, and discuss this so that all of us know what to do, and what it is that we can expect from our work.
As it seems to me, *any* time, for *any* reason, it seems that some *poor girl* who changes her mind, regardless of the fatc that she knowingly, and willingly, entered inot an agreement to model, has the ability to ask a photog to "Do the right thing", and scrap all his/her work.
That's what I should keep in mind any time I rent some equipment, rent studio space, sit down and discuss the event, in detail, procur a signature on a release, spend hours on the shoot, and more hours editing, show the model proofs and get the nod for acceptibility, that I may have to scrap it all months down the road because she changes her mind?
Someone please explain to me how this person having no responsibility, or accountability, to the agreement she made, and then expecting NOT to be "extorted" for compensation for the wasted time and money, is "Doing the right thing.".
If that's the case, why would anyone take the risk as a photographer?
I'm trying to figure out how this extremely one-sided thing is equitable on any level. |
Exactly Jeb...except you forgot a few points of the process....after showing the proofs, going back and editing some more...and then giving her the compensation agreed to...waiting several months and then after spending a couple of days updating your portfolio and to start receiving your compensations....then she changes her mind. |
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02/18/2010 07:56:54 AM · #50 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Look, honor her request. She realizes she made a mistake and regrets ALL the photos you took of her. If you started this thread to be told its OK to keep them posted you came to the right place. Naturally there will be some here to oblige. But, many others have said you should remove them and they are the ones you should listen to. What if this was your daughter? Would you delete them for her? Ask the dpc to del them too. I bet they will if you explain the situation. You talk of a release, how legal is it....any witnesses? Its really not a legal issue when you balance it with your conscience. Can you live with hurting this young lady? Obviously some here can, but you should "do the right thing" and remove the photos at once before any more damage is done. There are plenty others more than willing to pose any way you like. Use the services of one of them if you must. Taking a hard line approach here starts you down a slippery slope. Pretty soon other grey area decisions will all be made in your favor and there you will be...a person where your time and money will be the most important things in your life, to hell with whats morally right.(..and this has nothing to do with religion). If she has copies, ask for them back.
Do the right thing. You will feel better for it. |
Actually, I expected people in this thread to convince me that I should get rid of the photos and it's those people who have been telling me that I should that has helped me realize that I shouldn't. Everyone keeps throwing around statements of "do what's right" or "do what's moral"....well what's right and whats moral is....1) there was a deal 2) the work was performed 3) She received her part of the compensation 4) ***And here is where we are debating here*** I should receive my compensation.
Ask for the photos back wouldn't help because they were digital copies. And you say it's a slippery slope..you are right. If I start giving in to this with everyone who changes their mind my portfolio and pockets will be empty while theirs are full.
If this were my daughter, I'd pay the money for the services rendered. |
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