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08/05/2009 01:52:07 PM · #301 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
All I'm saying is that either way you inflate or deflate it as you did with your link...and you can deflate it even more of you'd like (and subtract some more, again). I think our system stinks in it's present state and it's too expensive.
Keep in mind many people that ARE covered have crappy coverage that doesn't do much. I've had great plans and bad ones and the Health Care industry is constantly trying to cut what it provides.
Don't you think $700-$100 (or higher) a month is a lot to pay?
A large number of uninsured are refereed to by the Health Care Industry as "The young invincibles," young adults, ages 19 to 29.
52 million. I've been hearing that number everywhere from Fox to CNN. I'm assuming it's an accepted figure on both sides of the debate since it's been appearing on both left and right wing media and blogs. As unemployment numbers have increased the trend makes sense, as well. I'll also jump to the point where many people in that number will not be able to get coverage if they have pre-existing conditions or if they can it will be unbelievably expensive.
Keep in mind people may be able to pay for it but at a back breaking cost. Insurance companies need competition because they are out of control and it's just going to get more and more expensive if we stand by idol. |
I understand what your saying, yes $700+ a month is a lot to pay for insurance. But the government doesn't have to rush through a bill they haven't read and don't know what's in it (because lobbyist have written most of the bill). And most Americans have not read the bill or don't understand it.
This week alone I have paid $277.98 in COBRA premiums that will go up to $772.44 in a few months. I have paid out $175.00 for medication and $30 in co-payments for two doctors visits. That's in ONE week. Yes I should be complaining and I am. But I'm not convinced that the government will solve my premium problems just because they want to run the show. Oh and by the way I don't make nearly $75K a year; more like $20K.
Lets say the government comes out with a plan that cost zero dollars in premiums. They have already said it will not cover medications. I would still be stuck with a medication bill of over $700/mo., not good. Then I would have to worry about the tax I would have to pay for a government run healthcare. So I would not gain a thing.
A person that is healthy and don't go to the doctors much or take medication may see it differently than an individal that see doctors and buy medications on regular basis. |
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08/05/2009 01:55:55 PM · #302 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
All I'm saying is that either way you inflate or deflate it as you did with your link...and you can deflate it even more of you'd like (and subtract some more, again). I think our system stinks in it's present state and it's too expensive. |
Agree 100%
Lets fix it, not make it worse. When was the last time a govt program operated under budget and achieved all it's goals? When was the last time the govt paid for something and they were not overcharged? |
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08/05/2009 01:57:33 PM · #303 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
The numbers shouldn't really matter. One person dying from something that could have been prevented had they had insurance is too many. That one person could be related to you! That one person could BE you! As nasty as some people are being on this thread, you'd really think we've become a nation of barbarians where it's every man for himself. I can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading. And it all comes back, always, to the almighty dollar and greed. Sad. |
I don't believe I said in any of my post that anyone legal or non-legal should be denied treatment. If a human is in need of care we do it and worry about the bill later. |
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08/05/2009 02:00:13 PM · #304 |
Originally posted by SDW:
Originally posted by Kelli:
The numbers shouldn't really matter. One person dying from something that could have been prevented had they had insurance is too many. That one person could be related to you! That one person could BE you! As nasty as some people are being on this thread, you'd really think we've become a nation of barbarians where it's every man for himself. I can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading. And it all comes back, always, to the almighty dollar and greed. Sad. |
I don't believe I said in any of my post that anyone legal or non-legal should be denied treatment. If a human is in need of care we do it and worry about the bill later. |
I know I didn't. Agree 100%. No one should go without the care they need in the United States. |
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08/05/2009 02:05:42 PM · #305 |
I think what we have is a common ground that we would like to see everyone covered with the best healtcare at an affordable price. Where we may disagree is how do we get there. And that's not a bad thing. Debate is good and one that Americans should be doing. This is not a republican, democratic, or liberal thing; it's an USA problem that needs to be solved.
Some believe the government can do it and some don't, I believing the latter. But lets all quit accusing others of not caring because we all care about others. We just want whats best for us and the rest of America.
Scott
Message edited by author 2009-08-05 14:09:31. |
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08/05/2009 02:13:13 PM · #306 |
By the way, I'm in no rush. I would of course, like it done right. I just hope it doesn't completely stall which is the administrations fear and something happens by the start of next year (5-6 months from now).
I think if we agree, that we should cover hard working Americans and those in genuine need of help, that's a good start and then look at it as non profit venture.
There's plenty to go around, it's just not going to the just places. When the Corporate structure rewards itself for failure and negligence there's a big problem. That's where we should focus the cross hairs. Getting pissed at the poor and illegals is like running outside and stepping on ants because you've been evicted. Sure their an easy target to vent your anger and they can't fight back but the cause of most of our problems reside on the other side of the spectrum. |
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08/05/2009 02:25:50 PM · #307 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
By the way, I'm in no rush. I would of course, like it done right. I just hope it doesn't completely stall which is the administrations fear and something happens by the start of next year (5-6 months from now).
I think if we agree, that we should cover hard working Americans and those in genuine need of help, that's a good start and then look at it as non profit venture.
There's plenty to go around, it's just not going to the just places. When the Corporate structure rewards itself for failure and negligence there's a big problem. That's where we should focus the cross hairs. Getting pissed at the poor and illegals is like running outside and stepping on ants because you've been evicted. Sure their an easy target to vent your anger and they can't fight back but the cause of most of our problems reside on the other side of the spectrum. |
Originally posted by SDW:
But lets all quit accusing others of not caring because we all care about others. We just want whats best for us and the rest of America.
Scott |
Scott-Fair enough but some folks have thrown around some cruel and uncaring rhetoric in this thread. I'm responding to that and knowing that there are more people even rougher out there. On a personal note, I'm not going to two weddings because I can't even look at or speak to my family from Ohio. They hate Obama which is ok if they have good reason but they don't. They are kind of like the Birthers who simply can't accept there's a black guy in office and are grabbing at straws to bring him down. I'll judge him on what he does or doesn't accomplishes but to trash him up front with reckless abandon seems trite after the bullshit we put up with for previous 8 years.
eta: I'm NOT saying that the government is the best most efficient way to go BUT Medicare (government run) and the VA system (government run) do work, baring 100% satisfaction and absolute perfection, of course.
Message edited by author 2009-08-05 14:59:38. |
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08/05/2009 02:42:01 PM · #308 |
Originally posted by SDW:
Originally posted by Kelli:
The numbers shouldn't really matter. One person dying from something that could have been prevented had they had insurance is too many. That one person could be related to you! That one person could BE you! As nasty as some people are being on this thread, you'd really think we've become a nation of barbarians where it's every man for himself. I can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading. And it all comes back, always, to the almighty dollar and greed. Sad. |
I don't believe I said in any of my post that anyone legal or non-legal should be denied treatment. If a human is in need of care we do it and worry about the bill later. |
But we don't do it. That's the whole point. You are not going to go to any emergency room and get treatment for treatable cancer. That's a fact. You will die from it without treatment, that's also a fact. And it wasn't you specifically that said you couldn't give a crap about anyone but yourself (I didn't say it was you), but quite a few people have pretty much written that exact thing. The whole thing even being debated makes me sick. People need medical care. Period. That's a fact. |
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08/05/2009 02:48:52 PM · #309 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by SDW:
Originally posted by Kelli:
The numbers shouldn't really matter. One person dying from something that could have been prevented had they had insurance is too many. That one person could be related to you! That one person could BE you! As nasty as some people are being on this thread, you'd really think we've become a nation of barbarians where it's every man for himself. I can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading. And it all comes back, always, to the almighty dollar and greed. Sad. |
I don't believe I said in any of my post that anyone legal or non-legal should be denied treatment. If a human is in need of care we do it and worry about the bill later. |
But we don't do it. That's the whole point. You are not going to go to any emergency room and get treatment for treatable cancer. That's a fact. You will die from it without treatment, that's also a fact. And it wasn't you specifically that said you couldn't give a crap about anyone but yourself (I didn't say it was you), but quite a few people have pretty much written that exact thing. The whole thing even being debated makes me sick. People need medical care. Period. That's a fact. |
That's not what is being argued. What is being argued is the best, most efficient way to do it.
Some say the gov't is the best, most efficient.
Others are saying the gov't is NOT. |
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08/05/2009 03:02:34 PM · #310 |
Originally posted by karmat:
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by SDW:
Originally posted by Kelli:
The numbers shouldn't really matter. One person dying from something that could have been prevented had they had insurance is too many. That one person could be related to you! That one person could BE you! As nasty as some people are being on this thread, you'd really think we've become a nation of barbarians where it's every man for himself. I can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading. And it all comes back, always, to the almighty dollar and greed. Sad. |
I don't believe I said in any of my post that anyone legal or non-legal should be denied treatment. If a human is in need of care we do it and worry about the bill later. |
But we don't do it. That's the whole point. You are not going to go to any emergency room and get treatment for treatable cancer. That's a fact. You will die from it without treatment, that's also a fact. And it wasn't you specifically that said you couldn't give a crap about anyone but yourself (I didn't say it was you), but quite a few people have pretty much written that exact thing. The whole thing even being debated makes me sick. People need medical care. Period. That's a fact. |
That's not what is being argued. What is being argued is the best, most efficient way to do it.
Some say the gov't is the best, most efficient.
Others are saying the gov't is NOT. |
If not the government, then who? Tell me where the waiters and waitresses should get their coverage? How about the construction workers? My husband has worked in the construction field his whole life. He has never had an employer offer health insurance. Not once. My mother (who is a waitress) has gone her whole adult life without insurance. When you make a minimal amount of money, you need it to pay bills, not pay for insurance. Where should the people that work jobs that don't offer insurance get it? All the naysayers say "not the government"! Then you tell me who, please! My mother had cancer, she can't get private insurance. Period. I've had two heart attacks. Guess what, my life insurance policy was cancelled. And I can't get another policy without paying more than it would cost for a funeral each year. What's the point? The whole insurance industry is a scam. It needs to be done away with. And the part I don't understand everyone freaking out about, if you have private insurance, it doesn't even effect you except to lower your own rates! The government plan is for the uninsured, not the insured. So what reason does anyone have to object to it? Money! That's the only reason. Greed, like I already said. |
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08/05/2009 03:11:16 PM · #311 |
Originally posted by karmat:
That's not what is being argued. What is being argued is the best, most efficient way to do it.
Some say the gov't is the best, most efficient.
Others are saying the gov't is NOT. |
I'm NOT saying that the government is the best most efficient way to go BUT Medicare (government run) and the VA system (government run) do work, baring 100% satisfaction and absolute perfection, of course. We all should have access to comprehensive care that's less profit driven and if the gov't can help with a system that brings that inline I would gladly gamble on them
The gov't does do somethings well. I was down at the Motor Vehicles Dept the other week and it was a beautifully streamlined process compared to the way it worked 15 years ago. My roads get plowed and paved, my water is clean...it's not inconceivable that they can get into the health care game, given a respectable track record with Medicare and The Va (even with the negative VA feedback given in this thread). |
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08/05/2009 03:25:03 PM · #312 |
Just got a link to this in an email. I thought it was kinda interesting. . .
Have a looksee |
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08/05/2009 03:41:08 PM · #313 |
Seems to me that private enterprise has had their shot at running the US health care system for at least the past 40 years, and they created what virtually everyone agrees is a mess.
To paraphrase Sir Winston Churchill,
"It has been said that democracy socialized medicine is the worst form of government health care except all the others that have been tried." |
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08/05/2009 03:49:40 PM · #314 |
| You have completely changed the meaning of Churchill's statement to fit your own agenda. |
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08/05/2009 03:52:57 PM · #315 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
You have completely changed the meaning of Churchill's statement to fit your own agenda. |
Hrm. I seem to recall that this is a favorite method of folks that read certain texts that they live their lives by... |
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08/05/2009 04:31:24 PM · #316 |
Or to paraphrase the great WWII leader Bob Hope:
A bank medical insurance will lend you money pay for your treatment as long as you can prove you don't need it. |
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08/05/2009 08:02:11 PM · #317 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by SDW:
Originally posted by Kelli:
The numbers shouldn't really matter. One person dying from something that could have been prevented had they had insurance is too many. That one person could be related to you! That one person could BE you! As nasty as some people are being on this thread, you'd really think we've become a nation of barbarians where it's every man for himself. I can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading. And it all comes back, always, to the almighty dollar and greed. Sad. |
I don't believe I said in any of my post that anyone legal or non-legal should be denied treatment. If a human is in need of care we do it and worry about the bill later. |
But we don't do it. That's the whole point. You are not going to go to any emergency room and get treatment for treatable cancer. That's a fact. You will die from it without treatment, that's also a fact. And it wasn't you specifically that said you couldn't give a crap about anyone but yourself (I didn't say it was you), but quite a few people have pretty much written that exact thing. The whole thing even being debated makes me sick. People need medical care. Period. That's a fact. |
Believe me when I say - I agree everyone needs medical care. I'm with you on that but the part I emphasized in bold is where the problem begins.
It sounds like you think that we should sit on our hands and blindly trust congress to have the answer to everyone's problem and it will be magically solved with a quick vote. We have to debate this or were going to get a bill that no congressman/congresswoman has read, let alone understands and filled with late night amendments written by the very same lobbyist and their lawyers shoved it by a committee. Which is what got us in this mess to begin with.
We [USA] has one chance to get this right, ONE CHANCE!
We better measure twice and cut once or a l000000000000t of people are going to suffer higher rate, long waits, more taxes; all for less care.
NOTE: "a lot" emphasized with 12-zeros to represent the trillion + dollars that are at stake along with thousands of lives.
Message edited by author 2009-08-05 20:13:19. |
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08/05/2009 08:41:37 PM · #318 |
To paraphrase GeneralE,
Seems to me that private enterprise our Congress has had their shot at running the US health care system for at least the past 40 234 years, and they created what virtually everyone agrees is a mess.
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08/05/2009 08:47:07 PM · #319 |
Originally posted by SDW:
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by SDW:
Originally posted by Kelli:
The numbers shouldn't really matter. One person dying from something that could have been prevented had they had insurance is too many. That one person could be related to you! That one person could BE you! As nasty as some people are being on this thread, you'd really think we've become a nation of barbarians where it's every man for himself. I can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading. And it all comes back, always, to the almighty dollar and greed. Sad. |
I don't believe I said in any of my post that anyone legal or non-legal should be denied treatment. If a human is in need of care we do it and worry about the bill later. |
But we don't do it. That's the whole point. You are not going to go to any emergency room and get treatment for treatable cancer. That's a fact. You will die from it without treatment, that's also a fact. And it wasn't you specifically that said you couldn't give a crap about anyone but yourself (I didn't say it was you), but quite a few people have pretty much written that exact thing. The whole thing even being debated makes me sick. People need medical care. Period. That's a fact. |
Believe me when I say - I agree everyone needs medical care. I'm with you on that but the part I emphasized in bold is where the problem begins.
It sounds like you think that we should sit on our hands and blindly trust congress to have the answer to everyone's problem and it will be magically solved with a quick vote. We have to debate this or were going to get a bill that no congressman/congresswoman has read, let alone understands and filled with late night amendments written by the very same lobbyist and their lawyers shoved it by a committee. Which is what got us in this mess to begin with.
We [USA] has one chance to get this right, ONE CHANCE!
We better measure twice and cut once or a l000000000000t of people are going to suffer higher rate, long waits, more taxes; all for less care.
NOTE: "a lot" emphasized with 12-zeros to represent the trillion + dollars that are at stake along with thousands of lives. |
But the debate isn't about the how. The debate is whether to do anything at all. That's the problem I have with the debate. The current system doesn't work. The current system is not in anyone's best interest except for the very rich. |
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08/05/2009 08:51:37 PM · #320 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
To paraphrase GeneralE,
Seems to me that private enterprise our Congress has had their shot at running the US health care system for at least the past 40 234 years, and they created what virtually everyone agrees is a mess. |
Yes, which brings us full circle to the original ...
"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government health care except all the others that have been tried."
-Sir Winston Churchill
Perhaps you haven't noticed, but what we actually have is corporate oligarchy, where we get the best laws (lobyists') money can buy.
Message edited by author 2009-08-05 20:51:51. |
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08/05/2009 08:56:25 PM · #321 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Originally posted by AJHopp:
And I don't want to hear the pitiful stories of people without health care. Obama's plan still leaves millions in the cold after he's trashed our current system. |
Wow, it's so nice to hear you don't give a flying f@*k about me or the 50 million uncovered Americans that HAVE worked hard and contributed to this nation.
I think the first part of this discussion is what kind of country or what kind of people do we want to be. How do we see ourselves? Are we caring human being or are we greedy animals? Do we look out for each other or is it every man for himself?
We are the richest country in the world, that spends the most money on healthcare but can't seem to make it work for everyone and people who are paying for coverage out of pocket are doing so at astronomical costs.
Amy be careful...what goes around, comes around. If you're religious, pray hard that you never lose your job and if you do, hope that you or a loved one doesn't have a pre-existing condition because you WILL be F*%$#d (pardon my French). It would be "pitiful"...wouldn't it? As I approach 47 and can't do the same kind of work I did as kid I'm a little concerned as my healthcare costs might soar somewhere between $800 to a 1000 a month...pardon me if I'm getting a little "obsessed" by the thought of shelling out such a huge sum living amongst such unmitigated greed.
I agree though, having a compassionate President really sucks...I'd prefer one in office that looks out for Big Business first.(lol) |
If I sounded harsh, it is out of extreme frustration. I am a very compassionate person, and I do apologize. Unlike some people, I am not too proud to admit I could have chosen better words to explain my feelings. There are also horror stories on the flip side of the coin. For example - a woman in Oregon, who after being diagnosed with cancer, was denied coverage (by the state) for a very expensive cancer drug. The state run, government coverage would pay for hospice care, but not a drug that could extend her life. The big, bad pharmaceutical company stepped in and provided her the drug for free.
Although our present health care system needs improved upon, there is no sense in destroying it, especially when millions of people are satisfied with their current plans and care. There will always be people who are less fortunate (in every aspect of life), but that is not the standard. I don't believe people are turned away if they are in dire need of care or without insurance. A lot of doctors, pharmaceutical companies, etc. will step in and help. I certainly don't see people being left to die in the streets.
I ask questions, and people ignore them. Instead, a part of my post is chosen and picked apart. Again, my question. How will government run, socialized health care be paid for? The Government is already broke and looking for ways to tax and drain our pay checks. Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security are going broke or already are. You can't cover all the people Obama says his health care plan will cover (including illegals) and expect more and better care at a cheaper cost. It just doesn't work that way, and everybody knows it. Rationing will occur, and you will see the elderly and diseased people suffer the consequences. They are the ones who go to the doctor the most. Cuts will have to made in order to cover everyone...
And Steve, I believe you are very disillusioned if you think Obama is compassionate. Are you referring to the same President who actually said (and I heard both remarks) that elderly people can take pain pills instead of having a pacemaker implant and people can go out and buy cupcakes with the $8 or so a week "tax cut" they are getting. Of course, the main stream media didn't play those clips for you, so you might not know what I'm referring to. Yeah, he's compassionate, alright. This health care plan is part of his big socialist agenda, one that he's had long before becoming President. It's not about us. If it were, he'd spend a lot of time on it and listen to different input. It wouldn't be crammed down out throats by a ridiculous deadline - HIS deadline.
Just a thought, but all the trillions he and his Democratic Congress have spent (and continue to spend) along with his travels and extra curriculars, could have gone a looooong way in helping the unfortunate people in this country who are without health care. The cars from "Cash for Clunkers" could have been given to poor families or victims of hurricane Katrina instead of being scrapped. I would hardly classify that man as compassionate.
Out of curiousity - if Obama wasn't on this health care obsession, would health care be in the top three of this country's biggest concerns?
Message edited by author 2009-08-05 21:09:48. |
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08/05/2009 08:57:04 PM · #322 |
Agreed, GE
Message edited by author 2009-08-05 20:57:30. |
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08/05/2009 09:04:20 PM · #323 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by SDW:
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by SDW:
Originally posted by Kelli:
The numbers shouldn't really matter. One person dying from something that could have been prevented had they had insurance is too many. That one person could be related to you! That one person could BE you! As nasty as some people are being on this thread, you'd really think we've become a nation of barbarians where it's every man for himself. I can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading. And it all comes back, always, to the almighty dollar and greed. Sad. |
I don't believe I said in any of my post that anyone legal or non-legal should be denied treatment. If a human is in need of care we do it and worry about the bill later. |
But we don't do it. That's the whole point. You are not going to go to any emergency room and get treatment for treatable cancer. That's a fact. You will die from it without treatment, that's also a fact. And it wasn't you specifically that said you couldn't give a crap about anyone but yourself (I didn't say it was you), but quite a few people have pretty much written that exact thing. The whole thing even being debated makes me sick. People need medical care. Period. That's a fact. |
Believe me when I say - I agree everyone needs medical care. I'm with you on that but the part I emphasized in bold is where the problem begins.
It sounds like you think that we should sit on our hands and blindly trust congress to have the answer to everyone's problem and it will be magically solved with a quick vote. We have to debate this or were going to get a bill that no congressman/congresswoman has read, let alone understands and filled with late night amendments written by the very same lobbyist and their lawyers shoved it by a committee. Which is what got us in this mess to begin with.
We [USA] has one chance to get this right, ONE CHANCE!
We better measure twice and cut once or a l000000000000t of people are going to suffer higher rate, long waits, more taxes; all for less care.
NOTE: "a lot" emphasized with 12-zeros to represent the trillion + dollars that are at stake along with thousands of lives. |
But the debate isn't about the how. The debate is whether to do anything at all. That's the problem I have with the debate. The current system doesn't work. The current system is not in anyone's best interest except for the very rich. |
Kelli, the debate is very much about the how. Republicans and others have given input on health care, but it's Obama's way or the highway... |
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08/05/2009 09:07:59 PM · #324 |
Originally posted by AJHopp:
Kelli, the debate is very much about the how. Republicans and others have given input on health care, but it's Obama's way or the highway... |
And the Republican plan to cover everyone and save money would be ...
Note that the Republicans had nearly eight years of complete control of all three branches of government to address this issue -- instead they dropped a few hundred billion dollars (and a hundred thousand lives) on Iraq ... |
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08/05/2009 09:22:37 PM · #325 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by AJHopp:
Kelli, the debate is very much about the how. Republicans and others have given input on health care, but it's Obama's way or the highway... |
And the Republican plan to cover everyone and save money would be ...
Note that the Republicans had nearly eight years of complete control of all three branches of government to address this issue -- instead they dropped a few hundred billion dollars (and a hundred thousand lives) on Iraq ... |
Well, if you paid attention during the election process (without getting sucked up in the Obama mania), you might remember John McCain's suggestion regarding different insurance choices that would extend across state lines. We have car insurance, dental insurance, and house insurance policies we can choose with varying degrees of coverage - why not health insurance? You don't get to hear Republican ideas, because 1) the media is Obama's lap dog and 2) there is no room for anything but his agenda. He said in a headline today that his health care overhaul would be passed this year, even without the support of Republicans. Health care involves everyone, not just Democrats.
I hate to be snide, but it's just like a Liberal (or whatever you term yourself) to change the subject (Iraq) and once again, not answer my questions.................................
Message edited by author 2009-08-05 21:26:47. |
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