Mexican Swine Flu - we're all gonna die!!!!!!!

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM II

04/29/2009 04:38:27 PM · #151

That's MISTER Dr. Scalvert to you. We take offense.

PhotoDave

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

04/29/2009 04:39:21 PM · #152

Originally posted by scalvert:

That's MISTER Dr. Scalvert to you. We take offense.

OMG here we go. LOOK OUT PEOPLE THE CAT IS OUT OF THE HAT!!

Pentax D-FA* 70-200mm f/2.8 ED DC AW

04/29/2009 04:59:21 PM · #153

Originally posted by scalvert:

That's MISTER Dr. Scalvert to you. We take offense.

Waitaminute. It's DOCTOR Mister Scalvert. We didn't go to medical school for six years so people can call us Mister Doctor. Can't you go hide out in our amygdala for a while and stop causing us so much embarassment?

Message edited by author 2009-04-29 16:59:34.

K3Master

Pentax K-3

04/29/2009 05:07:45 PM · #154

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by scalvert:
That's MISTER Dr. Scalvert to you. We take offense.

Waitaminute. It's DOCTOR Mister Scalvert. We didn't go to medical school for six years so people can call us Mister Doctor. Can't you go hide out in our amygdala for a while and stop causing us so much embarassment?

Zo tell uz, vhat ist your relazionzip vit your mah-zah?

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

04/29/2009 05:22:12 PM · #155

Originally posted by K10DGuy:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by scalvert:
That's MISTER Dr. Scalvert to you. We take offense.

Waitaminute. It's DOCTOR Mister Scalvert. We didn't go to medical school for six years so people can call us Mister Doctor. Can't you go hide out in our amygdala for a while and stop causing us so much embarassment?

Zo tell uz, vhat ist your relazionzip vit your mah-zah?

I keep having this dream where a train keeps going in and out of a tunnel. In and out. In and out.

Ken

Canon EOS-7D

04/29/2009 05:37:27 PM · #156

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by soup:
antibiotics are bad...

add to that using them on the domesticated animals we eat - it's doubly bad.

what we are doing - in a scientific manner - is providing an incubation tank for the very same viruses we are trying to control. and letting the animal versions adapt and mutate, and become stronger.

antibiotics are over used - it's proven.

giving them to animals - well - who'd of thought - it would result in them being less and less effective ?

i'm going to go find a pig and kiss it deep and with my tongue...

messing with the survival of the fittest - rule - is a bad bad thing.

Ummmm, except antibiotics do nothing about viruses. But your overall point still has some merit. It's just not applicable in this situation.

It's unfortunate that so many people don't understand this. I know people who go to the doctor when they get a cold specifically for an antibiotic. The doctor gives it to them. They get better. Their minds at work?

K3Master

Pentax K-3

Pentax D-FA* 70-200mm f/2.8 ED DC AW

04/29/2009 05:42:03 PM · #157

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by K10DGuy:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by scalvert:
That's MISTER Dr. Scalvert to you. We take offense.

Waitaminute. It's DOCTOR Mister Scalvert. We didn't go to medical school for six years so people can call us Mister Doctor. Can't you go hide out in our amygdala for a while and stop causing us so much embarassment?

Zo tell uz, vhat ist your relazionzip vit your mah-zah?

I keep having this dream where a train keeps going in and out of a tunnel. In and out. In and out.

Is it an anterior tunnel, or a posterior tunnel?

Ken

Canon EOS-7D

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

04/29/2009 05:47:45 PM · #158

pandemic imminent

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 ED

04/29/2009 05:56:20 PM · #159

Another possibility of why Mexico has deaths while nobody else does is the genetic makeup of the patient. When flu kills healthy adults it's usually from the patient's immune system going into hyperdrive and causing widespread destruction in the lungs. There may be a genetic predisposition which is more prevalent in hispanics.

BeeCee

Nikon D40

04/29/2009 06:13:36 PM · #160

Originally posted by Ken:

[quote=DrAchoo]
It's unfortunate that so many people don't understand this. I know people who go to the doctor when they get a cold specifically for an antibiotic. The doctor gives it to them. They get better. Their minds at work?

Treat a cold and it's gone in a week. Don't treat it and you're stuck with it for 7 days...

I imagine it's going away all on its own and they're just crediting the antibiotics. I wish more doctors would put their foot (feet) down and refuse unless they're sure it's bacterial, or dangerous enough that they don't want to take a chance on waiting for test results.

citymars

Nikon D700

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

04/29/2009 06:20:17 PM · #161

Media hysteria and comical freakouts aside, the World Health Org has raised the threat level (see Ken's link), and the flu is reportedly spreading in New York City. I'm not at all panicked, but considering how many times I've been sick this winter already, how I'm still recovering from the last bout, and how NYC is like a giant Petri dish even on a good day, I admit I'm feeling cautious.

Tamron AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD Aspherical IF for Canon

04/29/2009 06:36:47 PM · #162

Originally posted by BeeCee:

Originally posted by Ken:
[quote=DrAchoo]
It's unfortunate that so many people don't understand this. I know people who go to the doctor when they get a cold specifically for an antibiotic. The doctor gives it to them. They get better. Their minds at work?

Treat a cold and it's gone in a week. Don't treat it and you're stuck with it for 7 days...

I imagine it's going away all on its own and they're just crediting the antibiotics. I wish more doctors would put their foot (feet) down and refuse unless they're sure it's bacterial, or dangerous enough that they don't want to take a chance on waiting for test results.

Unfortunately patient expectations and the litigious nature of our society make this difficult. I tend to have two rules: 3 days of fever of 101 or 10 days of symptoms which are no better at the end than the beginning. I also try to coach patients to say IF the antibiotic is the answer they will be 50% better in 2 to 3 days and if they are better in a week not to blame the antibiotic. Hopefully that helps fight the perception that it's always the antiobiotic that gets them better.

SDW

Canon EOS-60D

04/29/2009 06:38:23 PM · #163

There's something more worrisome to me than a pandemic; the laws prepared by the federal government that gives the state the power that goes beyond reason. The law I'm referring to is the MSEHPA of 2001 which 35 states have adopted. It gives the state wide control over a person or a group of people in the event of an emergency such as a pandemic.

It's a 39 page legal document and if read carefully you can see why some states have not adopted this law. Pay special attention to ARTICLE VI , Section 601 through 608 and refer to the sections it references and the definitions. If any has time to read it, let me know what you think of this law.

The Model State Emergency Health Powers Act (MSEHPA)

Bugzeye

Fisher Price Kid-Tough Digital

04/29/2009 06:42:35 PM · #164

They just announced on TV that Milwaukee Wisconsin has 2 probable swine flu cases, 1 adult and 1 child. They are going to be closing down a few schools until further notice. I sure hope they nip it in the bud.

Pentax D-FA* 70-200mm f/2.8 ED DC AW

04/29/2009 06:47:49 PM · #165

Originally posted by SDW:

While I can understand that reads like a Libertarian's nightmare, I'd say it was reasonable if we are facing the second coming of the 1918 flu. 70 million worldwide deaths? That's immense. The only way to even try to combat it would be basically a totalitarian, martial-law approach. This document, however, doesn't quite read like that. It gives the authorities the power to isolate, test, and treat individuals. Again, a Libertarian's nightmare, but not necessarily for the rest of us.

K3Master

Pentax K-3

04/29/2009 07:19:17 PM · #166

Originally posted by K10DGuy:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by K10DGuy:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by scalvert:
That's MISTER Dr. Scalvert to you. We take offense.

Waitaminute. It's DOCTOR Mister Scalvert. We didn't go to medical school for six years so people can call us Mister Doctor. Can't you go hide out in our amygdala for a while and stop causing us so much embarassment?

Zo tell uz, vhat ist your relazionzip vit your mah-zah?

I keep having this dream where a train keeps going in and out of a tunnel. In and out. In and out.

Is it an anterior tunnel, or a posterior tunnel?

I zee, zo you are avoiding zee quezdion, eentresting.

NikonJeb

Nikon D850

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 28-300mm f3.5-5.6G ED VR

04/29/2009 07:38:47 PM · #167

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

the 1918 flu. 70 million worldwide deaths?

50 Million...

National Archives Short

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

04/29/2009 07:41:51 PM · #168

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
the 1918 flu. 70 million worldwide deaths?

50 Million...

National Archives Short

But we have more people today, no? :) The extrapolation would be 70 million. ("The World Bank estimated in 2008 that a flu pandemic could cost $3 trillion (Â£2 trillion) and result in a nearly 5pc drop in world gross domestic product. The World Bank has estimated that more than 70m people could die worldwide in a severe pandemic.") I don't think it will come to that though. 1918 was probably a perfect storm with World War I going on and people literally huddling together in muddy trenches. We also had no antibiotics for secondary infection. We had no antivirals. Our ventilatory support ability was crude, and I'm not even sure we had iron lungs in 1918.

Message edited by author 2009-04-29 19:43:16.

soup

Canon EOS-30D

04/29/2009 07:43:19 PM · #169

Originally posted by scalvert:

It's because there are so many mutations. It's not currently possible to target all strains, so vaccine developers aim for the three most likely variants for the upcoming season (an educated guess based on "current" cases). Vaccines are not designed to kill viruses, but to teach your own immune system to recognize the bad guys. Even if mutations occur during the months it takes to develop a vaccine, they usually offer at least partial protection.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

04/29/2009 07:47:14 PM · #170

Some viruses have much more fidelity in their replication. DNA viruses (such as smallpox) have relatively sophisticated tools for maintaining the fidelity of its genome. This helps it replicate but doesn't help it adapt. Other viruses, for example, retroviruses such as HIV, are quite willy nilly about the fidelity of its genome. It's changing all the time which results in many copies which are nonfunctional, but also allows it to mutate and constantly adapt our innate and adaptive immune systems. Influenza is more on the willy nilly end of the spectrum.

Originally posted by soup:

i understand that. but... why is the FLU so capable of mutating. why don't we all need smallpox vaccines every year ? among others.

so by teaching our immune system to reject a certain strain of FLU virus - we have essentially made it stronger. and it won't come back again exactly the same. it will be a slightly different strain.

is that because it is always mutating ? or is it because we are forcing it to do so ?

if we didn't have flu vaccine - WOULD the same strain come back the next year ?

mainly - are we making the FLU virus stronger by trying to fight it ?

i think the answer is YES.

Originally posted by scalvert:
It's because there are so many mutations. It's not currently possible to target all strains, so vaccine developers aim for the three most likely variants for the upcoming season (an educated guess based on "current" cases). Vaccines are not designed to kill viruses, but to teach your own immune system to recognize the bad guys. Even if mutations occur during the months it takes to develop a vaccine, they usually offer at least partial protection.

Message edited by author 2009-04-29 19:47:45.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

04/29/2009 07:47:24 PM · #171

Originally posted by K10DGuy:

I zee, zo you are avoiding zee quezdion, eentresting.

Seine Frage is hier verboten ... es muss "germane" sein, nicht "German" ...

soup

Canon EOS-30D

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

04/29/2009 07:53:40 PM · #172

add to that the vaccination of domesticated animals - the ones we eat - and what have we done? we've created human vaccines - we've created animal vaccines. a vaccine is a version of the actual virus we get sick from - adjusted in a lab so it makes us create antibodies to it - while at the same time - for the most part - not making us sick.

so we are essentially injecting a virus into ourselves and our pigs, and both the pigs and us are in contact with the actual virus.

what happens then ? the real virus has to adapt in order to reproduce. if the hosts are not going to allow it to - it mutates so that it can...

and again - and again - and again. each time potentially becoming stronger.

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

One thing to clarify with viruses like influenza is there is not a fixed large number of strains and we have to guess which ones will be most prevalent. Two effects take place. First we have antigenic drift which is the small random mutation that occurs to a strain. We also have antigenic shift where a brand new version of the N or H protein appears. Drift is responsible for the variability with seasonal flu from year to year. Shift is responsible for pandemic flu. So it's not that we necessarily just have to guess from a large number of strains, it's also possible completely NEW strains emerge.

soup

Canon EOS-30D

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

04/29/2009 07:55:47 PM · #173

willy nilly - or not well enough understood ?

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Influenza is more on the willy nilly end of the spectrum.

Message edited by author 2009-04-29 20:00:13.