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02/15/2009 06:55:24 PM · #126 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by wdamman:
When you pass your cursor over a number you see the following
1 - VERY POOR - (There is a brief description for each rating)
2 - POOR
3 - NEEDS CONSIDERABLE IMPROVEMENT
4 - BELOW AVERAGE
5 - AVERAGE
6 - ABOVE AVERAGE
7 - VERY GOOD
8 - EXTREMLY GOOD
9 - EXCELLENT
10 - PERFECTION |
I don't know if this is still the case but when I was active over there a while back everyone would just vote in the 7-10 range regardless of quality of the photo. |
I like the idea of having a brief description of what that vote represents pop up when you pass the cursor over the rating. I don't agree with their 1-10 descriptions. |
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02/15/2009 07:09:01 PM · #127 |
Originally posted by wdamman:
I don't agree with their 1-10 descriptions. |
That's the crux of the matter. The 1-10 scale means different things to different people. Giving value to each score will only enforce the herd mentality that Bear speaks about above |
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02/15/2009 07:46:30 PM · #128 |
Originally posted by wdamman:
Maybe giving the voter a guideline while they vote would help place your cursor on a rating 1-10
You need to have an account to vote.
When you pass your cursor over a number you see the following
1 - VERY POOR - (There is a brief description for each rating)
2 - POOR
3 - NEEDS CONSIDERABLE IMPROVEMENT
4 - BELOW AVERAGE
5 - AVERAGE
6 - ABOVE AVERAGE
7 - VERY GOOD
8 - EXTREMLY GOOD
9 - EXCELLENT
10 - PERFECTION |
When I first started here and wondered what the judging criteria was so that I didn't vote incorrectly on anyone's shot, THIS was the type of criteria I was told by many members to vote by. That is what I continue to stick to right to this day.
Of course, what constitutes "poor", "average", "excellent" to everyone is going to be subjective on several different fronts. Some will judge "poor" as a photo with bad technicals while others will judge it as one that just doesn't appeal to them, even if technically brilliant.
However, it does give SOME sort of guidelines to go by.
It's been awhile since I've participated in any challenges in that particular site as I've concentrated on a couple of others but, if I am remembering correctly (or, perhaps, I'm thinking of another), they require you to have a certain number of photos in your portfolio FIRST before you can even enter or judge a challenge. One that I was involved in, not only required that but, also that you enter 1 or 2 challenges before you got voting rights in any challenge. I think that this is a good way to weed out those who held multiple accounts or, were in here to just have some fun with the 1 and 2 votes. It makes people more serious about being in here.
As for the having to comment....well, again....I don't see any reason why it should be a problem to be reminded that you must leave a comment on a 1 to 3 scoring shot. The only ones should find that "annoying" (as is the reason for it being taken down) are those who habitually score in the 1 to 3 ranges. Frankly, most of the challenges don't really need that many 1 or 2 scores in here, according to this criteria as set in the example scoring theme so, it shouldn't be that "annoying" and if it is....you're handing out WAY TOO MANY of them and should rethink your scoring patterns!!! ;-) |
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02/15/2009 07:51:16 PM · #129 |
1=don't want to have to look at this one ever again
2=bleh
3=neh
4=I just don't get it
5=no reaction
6=pretty nice shot
7=ooooh
8=unusually interesting
9=rave
10=instant fave |
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02/15/2009 07:53:54 PM · #130 |
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02/15/2009 07:57:19 PM · #131 |
| Most of my shots end up with a 4.x score. Nobody gets me, I guess "D |
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02/15/2009 08:16:47 PM · #132 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by vawendy:
Ok, the low votes on lousy pictures isn't much of an issue here. The low votes on photos average a 6 or higher is ridiculous. How about a comment being mandatory if you are giving a score of 4 or more points lower than the pictures current average. If you are giving a significantly different vote than the majority of the people, it would be helpful to know your reasoning. It may be a perfectly valid reason--but since it's so unusual, it would be worth knowing. |
From my perspective, the problem with this is it serves to reinforce the herd mentality. Let me explain why:
Let's examine the case of "Voter X", who thinks that the most important element in scoring should be originality, creativity, elements like that. Voter X is very consistent, but he gives really low scores to what he considers to be derivative works, no matter how well they are executed. He has almost never given a score higher than 4 or 5 to what turned out to be the eventual ribboners, and frequently he has scored them 3 or less. Aesthetically, he marches to the beat of a different drummer than most DPCers do.
Now, I'd like to assume that you have NO quarrel with this voter, that you agree he has the absolute right to follow his own aesthetic in his voting. But even so, you are basically opining that this voter, *because* he is out of step with the DPC consensus, should be saddled with an *obligation* to explain his votes. To open himself up for criticism and even possibly ostracism, because he's not in lockstep. Not only that, you're asking that he be *required* to do his commenting on images that he has no interest in. See?
Meanwhile, the really weak images, the ones that are scoring in the low 4's and the high 3's, well THESE images NOBODY Is giving a vote that's "more than 4" off the consensus, basically, so NOBODY is *required* to comment on those?
End result: if you don't fit into the herd, you're forced to expose yourself, to justify your aesthetic position.
NOT a good idea, IMO. Well-intended, but not a good idea.
R. |
I see the point you are making and it's a valid one in Voter X's case. The question then, that I'd have, is why Voter X, felt that perhaps, a style outside of his/her particular set of criteria should be marked as a 1 or a 2? In that instance, Voter X is saying that all photos outside of his/her criteria/style/taste are lousy. But, let me use another analogy to explain what I'm driving at with this.
Say for instance, Voter X is at a state fair, judging jams. Voter X, loves peaches. He/she really doesn't like strawberry, blueberry or apple. He/she can "tolerate" cherry and rhubarb as mediocre tastes. So, when Voter X comes to judge jams, He/she decides that peach jams are going to be given the highest score of excellent from him. Anything strawbery, blueberry or apple, no matter how fantastic a jam they are, is going to be marked as "poor/lousy". Cherry and Rhubarb jams are going to be given mediocre scores because he/she can tolerate those.
Given that Voter X has a high preference for Peaches and a toleration for Strawberry and Rhubarb jams, those are going to be considered top scores of fair to excellent and everything else, no matter how well done they are, are going to receive the "lousy/poor" stamp from him/her.
So, Mrs. Brown who has been a master at jam making for 60 years and has prepared the most delicious and well made blueberry-strawberry jam, will have her jam called "lousy/poor" and her score knocked down by Voter X simply because he/she is biased by his/her dislike for strawberries and blueberries. However, by contrast Mrs. Johnson and Mrs. Smith are beginners. Their jams are watery and over sugared but, their score is raised by Voter X in this competition simply because their jams were made from Peaches and Voter X LOVES peaches. Mrs. Johnson and Mrs. Smith walk away from this competition, thinking that they must be great jam makers because their scores were close to Mrs. Brown's score. Meanwhile, Mrs. Brown is looking at her jam and her score from Voter X and wondering why Voter X gave her such a low score. She sees no reason why it should have been that low and doesn't understand why her Master Jam has scored near the likes of jams from Mrs. Johnson and Mrs Smith.
Wouldn't it be nice for Mrs. Brown to know that her jam was great but, that Voter X scored it lower simply because he/she doesn't like anything stawberry or blueberry? At least then, she can put it into some perspective and go on making great jams!!! :) |
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02/15/2009 08:17:58 PM · #133 |
My 2 cents worth. When the site suggested leaving a comment for votes lower than 4, I strongly tended to give out 4's as my lowest score - primarily because I felt it a risk of hurting others' feelings, proclaiming myself to be brilliant, or simply a lack of time. When the site removed the request for explanation, I tended to vote 1's & 2's more often. I also noticed that my received scores tended to go down slightly. Based on my personal prejudices and experience, I don't think requiring comments on 1's or 2's is a good idea - you seem to get a much more honest vote without even a prompt to leave a comment.
I would also say that it is one thing to know what should be done photographically, and quite another to be able to do it - let alone consistently.
I am still trying to figure out if equipment has anything to do with it. I don't want to invest tons of money in equipment if it is just simply a matter of not having an artist's eye - if I take equally bad pictures with a $5000 camera, I really haven't gained anything, have I? As you can tell, I'm running a $130 camera (of course, it cost me much more than that, but that's a different story...).
My most disturbing encounter on dpchallenge was when I offered help to a low-scoring photo photographer. Don't remember who. They referred me to their web site - that of a professional photographer for product brochures, ads, etc. Absolutely beautiful work. Why the brown? A stress-reliever from their trade. It may help to remember that people are voting on the photograph - not on the photographer. Some days I take decent photos. Some days not. I think my scores reflect that.
In general, there are few challenges where I strongly disagreed with the voters' choice for top 10.
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02/15/2009 08:43:43 PM · #134 |
Originally posted by dtremain:
My 2 cents worth. When the site suggested leaving a comment for votes lower than 4, I strongly tended to give out 4's as my lowest score - primarily because I felt it a risk of hurting others' feelings, proclaiming myself to be brilliant, or simply a lack of time. When the site removed the request for explanation, I tended to vote 1's & 2's more often. I also noticed that my received scores tended to go down slightly. Based on my personal prejudices and experience, I don't think requiring comments on 1's or 2's is a good idea - you seem to get a much more honest vote without even a prompt to leave a comment.
I would also say that it is one thing to know what should be done photographically, and quite another to be able to do it - let alone consistently.
I am still trying to figure out if equipment has anything to do with it. I don't want to invest tons of money in equipment if it is just simply a matter of not having an artist's eye - if I take equally bad pictures with a $5000 camera, I really haven't gained anything, have I? As you can tell, I'm running a $130 camera (of course, it cost me much more than that, but that's a different story...).
My most disturbing encounter on dpchallenge was when I offered help to a low-scoring photo photographer. Don't remember who. They referred me to their web site - that of a professional photographer for product brochures, ads, etc. Absolutely beautiful work. Why the brown? A stress-reliever from their trade. It may help to remember that people are voting on the photograph - not on the photographer. Some days I take decent photos. Some days not. I think my scores reflect that.
In general, there are few challenges where I strongly disagreed with the voters' choice for top 10. |
Is it really a "fair" vote...or, simply more annoymous freedom to mark something as "dreadful"?
My reasoning behind asking this is because I noticed that with my own voting patterns both pre and post "pop-up box" on a 1 to 3 vote, my pattern of voting 1's and 2's haven't changed. It takes either a really distasteful or in-your-face BAD, or a total DNMC for me to give out a 1 to 3 score (though, I've experimented with my own voting criteria over the past few months having noticed how others are voting and what criteria they are using on mine as well as thread discussions on this topic). If that is the case, then I recognize that the 1 to 3 vote is well deserved and have very little problem in handing it out AND a comment to go with it, explaining why I thought it was a "poor" shot.
I think that perhaps, the problem people have with handing out the 1 to 3 scores and having to comment on the reason has more to do with the idea that perhaps, there is a bit of doubt as to the 1 to 3 scores truly being justified in the voter's minds and having to explain WHY it is seen that way. It's much easier to hand out these low scores anonymously and without explanation. But, what if that person truly doesn't understand WHY or what could have changed it for the better? What if that person truly wanted to know? And, what if the voter is truly just in a grumpy mood that day and didn't give it a fair chance? Wouldn't it be better to have to really re-look and re-evaluate someone's work and if it still deserved that 1 to 3 vote in your mind at that point, giving an explanation as to why? No one says that you have to be brutal in your comment. You don't have to say..."Your shot sucks. You should put down your camera!" One can say..."The focus was really off. Perhaps, using a tripod would help?" or, "The subject matter is distasteful in my personal opinion" Not many shots in here truly deserve a 1 or 2 in my personal opinion. Most of us who have been in here for awhile can spot the difference between someone who is trying to get shock value out of a shot, hasn't spent any time on it and entered anything just for the hell of it, and someone who truly tried but, just had no clue what is good and what isn't. The first 2 scenarios deserve the 1's and 2's. The latter, deserves a 3 or 4 and an explanation as to why it didn't work or what could improve it in your own opinion. Just the reason why you didn't like it is enough at times. You don't have to be an "expert photographer" to tell the person why it didn't appeal to you. :)
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02/15/2009 08:48:26 PM · #135 |
| Ok, I just received a 2. I stand by my statement that it would be really nice to know why. |
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02/15/2009 08:51:40 PM · #136 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
Ok, I just received a 2. I stand by my statement that it would be really nice to know why. |
Whoooppppsssss.....same here! Just went to log out and check one more time and saw I'd gotten a 2 as well!
Me thinketh that someone is 1 and 2 happy at the moment! That pop-up box would really come in handy now as maybe, they wouldn't be so quick to run around, handing out the 1 and 2's like candy. :(
ETA: Going to turn this off now and go do something that doesn't involve grinding my teeth to pegs, watching my score take nose dives to the 1 and 2 voters.
Message edited by author 2009-02-15 20:53:52. |
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02/15/2009 08:55:31 PM · #137 |
| this thread has been entertaining. Many people think it's a problem that people might not be as quick to hand out 1's & 2's if they had to comment. Personally, I have no problem with that. |
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02/15/2009 08:58:30 PM · #138 |
Originally posted by PhotoInterest:
Originally posted by vawendy:
Ok, I just received a 2. I stand by my statement that it would be really nice to know why. |
Whoooppppsssss.....same here! Just went to log out and check one more time and saw I'd gotten a 2 as well!
Me thinketh that someone is 1 and 2 happy at the moment! That pop-up box would really come in handy now as maybe, they wouldn't be so quick to run around, handing out the 1 and 2's like candy. :( |
There's no guilt in leaving a low score now. If a box popped up when you go to click the 2 and it stated something like "POOR SHOT - extremely little technical or artistic value" maybe they would give more thought to the vote. |
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02/15/2009 09:08:10 PM · #139 |
Actually, maybe it's just the extreme's that need a comment.
You must leave a comment for 1's and 10's.
Message edited by author 2009-02-15 22:45:19. |
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02/16/2009 12:18:07 PM · #140 |
| On the subject of comments, a third of mu comments haven't been marked as helpful. I went through them to make sure I hadn't been rude or obtuse and in the vast majority of cases the photographer had not acknowledged any comments. |
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02/16/2009 12:33:15 PM · #141 |
Another thread that wants to try and tell us how we should vote... all this does is discourage people from voting...or skew the votes....
Message edited by author 2009-02-16 12:34:06.
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02/16/2009 01:34:17 PM · #142 |
Originally posted by wdamman:
Originally posted by PhotoInterest:
Originally posted by vawendy:
Ok, I just received a 2. I stand by my statement that it would be really nice to know why. |
Whoooppppsssss.....same here! Just went to log out and check one more time and saw I'd gotten a 2 as well!
Me thinketh that someone is 1 and 2 happy at the moment! That pop-up box would really come in handy now as maybe, they wouldn't be so quick to run around, handing out the 1 and 2's like candy. :( |
There's no guilt in leaving a low score now. If a box popped up when you go to click the 2 and it stated something like "POOR SHOT - extremely little technical or artistic value" maybe they would give more thought to the vote. |
EXACTLY! That's what I was driving at in telling my own story of when I first started here. That pop-up box made me re-look at the photo in question and re-evaluate it. If I still felt it deserved a 1 to 3 vote...it got it, along with my reasoning for it in a comment. |
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02/16/2009 01:36:55 PM · #143 |
Originally posted by neophyte:
Another thread that wants to try and tell us how we should vote... all this does is discourage people from voting...or skew the votes.... |
How does it do tell you HOW to vote? How does a reminder that you are about to hand out a really low score to a shot, tell people HOW to vote? And, if it "skews the vote" because people may have to explain WHY they are handing out a really low vote, then perhaps, people are not as convinced in their decisions on scores as they would like to believe??? Just a thought. |
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02/16/2009 01:43:10 PM · #144 |
Originally posted by PhotoInterest:
Originally posted by neophyte:
Another thread that wants to try and tell us how we should vote... all this does is discourage people from voting...or skew the votes.... |
How does it do tell you HOW to vote? How does a reminder that you are about to hand out a really low score to a shot, tell people HOW to vote? And, if it "skews the vote" because people may have to explain WHY they are handing out a really low vote, then perhaps, people are not as convinced in their decisions on scores as they would like to believe??? Just a thought. |
There's no pop-up box to ask someone why they might be giving a vote of 9 or 10. Surely that, as a vote at the extremity of the voting range, would require some validation?
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02/16/2009 01:52:58 PM · #145 |
You know, here's some food for thought:
It has occurred to me that I'm basically *not interested* in hearing why you gave my shot a 1, a 2, or a 3. Every time you explain this to me, it basically boils down to one of two things: either you just plain don't *like" the shot, or the subject matter, or the style, or... you courteously explain to me which of the decisions *I* made in the presentation of this image were bad ones, in your opinion, and what you'd have done to make this image *better*, in your opinion.
As to the first category, I just plain accept that. It's not news to me. MOST of the images I enter are niche images in one form or another, and a lot of people are not going to like them. For the second category, I'm personally not interested: everything I did, more or less, I did consciously and for a reason, and if it doesn't work *for you* that's not a problem with me, that's just the way it goes. I'm talking about stuff like I take a shot with a background figure VERY OOF and the commenter tells me "this would work better if the figure in the BG were in focus", stuff like that. It's not useful feedback to me, I didn't make the picture to please that voter, I made it to please myself.
I mean, I'm not a hardass about this, but I'm basically not interested in *why* people give me ,low scores.
No, I'm MUCH more interested in why you gave me a 5 instead of a 7. THAT is information I'd like to have...
**************
So my counterproposal: I think the site should REQUIRE comments on all votes of 4, 5, and 6: these are midstream votes, and they are the people I might be able to please with a few tweaks. So how about it? Anyone want to join my crusade to REQUIRE comments on all 4, 5, 6 votes?
**************
(Above message is tongue-in-cheek, in case anyone wonders...)
R.
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02/16/2009 02:10:48 PM · #146 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
It has occurred to me that I'm basically *not interested* in hearing why you gave my shot a 1, a 2, or a 3. Every time you explain this to me, it basically boils down to one of two things |
I was prepared to debate this with you because many people DO want too know why their image is getting the low votes. Until I read the next part:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
No, I'm MUCH more interested in why you gave me a 5 instead of a 7. THAT is information I'd like to have... |
Since I make more effort to comment on the 4's and 5's I give, your input was encouraging for me and I will continue to make the effort to comment on my midrange votes.
After some recent discussions on the subject, I have realized many of the extremely low votes are not telling me my image sucks, but rather that it does speak to the viewer or meet some other criteria that I will not understand or appreciate.
Message edited by author 2009-02-16 14:10:58. |
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02/16/2009 02:54:37 PM · #147 |
Originally posted by yospiff:
After some recent discussions on the subject, I have realized many of the extremely low votes are not telling me my image sucks, but rather that it does speak to the viewer or meet some other criteria that I will not understand or appreciate. |
Bingo! If more people would understand this, these threads might die out.
R.
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02/16/2009 04:42:18 PM · #148 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I mean, I'm not a hardass about this,
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Sure you are. Come on, admit it. You've always dreamed
of being an internet tough guy. :)
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
No, I'm MUCH more interested in why you gave me a 5 instead of a 7. THAT is information I'd like to have...
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I really don't see the difference. I'm gonna tell you the same thing about the 5, as I did the 1 or 2. There's something about the image that I didn't like. You've already established that you really don't care how we score your images because you make them only to please yourself. So howz bout asking Langdon to add a "No comments please" button so we can avoid wasting our time commenting on your work. I asked but the SC that responded seemed to have an attitude problem that day.
Heheheheheh, while trying to post this I ran across the moving update button. Hilarious!!!!!!!!!! I dare the IT sucker who did this to make the REAL update button move around like that. Double dog dare you.
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02/16/2009 04:57:16 PM · #149 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by yospiff:
After some recent discussions on the subject, I have realized many of the extremely low votes are not telling me my image sucks, but rather that it does speak to the viewer or meet some other criteria that I will not understand or appreciate. |
Bingo! If more people would understand this, these threads might die out.
R. |
Double Bingo! It won't have escaped your notice, Bear, that with a couple of recent honorable exceptions (I'm thinking of  yospiff and NikonJeb), the 'please explain' folks never change their position in these threads anyway? (Not that those two gents were really 'please explainers'; just seekers of the truth) It seems to make no difference how carefully the concept of intellectual freedom is explained ΓΆ€“ by you, usually ΓΆ€“ the relentlessly obtuse remain just that. |
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02/16/2009 04:58:29 PM · #150 |
my 2c.
For me the actual number of the score is irrelevant. It is only the final position that I am interested in.
I don't care if I finish with a 6 or a 7 score, but if I finish in the top 10 I get a warm glowey feeling.
When I finished 2nd, I am sure you could see my glow for miles around.
People voting low are not going to effect the final position, as long as the they vote consistently low on all shots!
The people that complain their art is not appreciated here, this site likes highly polished eye candy that is no where near outside of the box thinking. If your style does not fit this, then the www is a big place and I am sure there is somewhere that will appreciate it.
I would never consider entering into a marathon, for example as I could never hope to compete!
However, I would suggest scrapping the DPC Olympics and other team based challenges would stop the amount of low votes given.
If there are 150 - 200 entries in a challenge, and you know you are competing against 30-40 of them, human nature is gonna kick in and lower votes will be cast!!
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