Nit-Pickers, 1's and 2's and "Distracting"

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

01/27/2009 03:02:11 PM · #26

Originally posted by Chinabun:

I see quite a few comments that people left that were trying to be helpful and maybe that's why your shot scored low, but it seems that you only mark helpful when it's someone who says they love your shot.

In these two you have good and bad comments but the only ones marked helpful are the ones who agree with you or "understand" what you were working with.

You've picked two of my dozens of entries. And, yes...there are some unmarked. The tomato shot...everyone said the same thing, I got the point and didn't revisit the comments afterwards...got the points. And, if you really looked, you'd see that I did mark those types of comments helpful on a lot of them. Call it battle fatique and point taken.

The second one (the buggy), I did not mark those as helpful because I couldn't move an entire set of buildings nor, did I want to! If you look at the description I put in on this one....the very fact that the buggy was sitting in an industrial area was PART of what I was trying to portray in this shot! So, it wasn't "helpful" to me that the buildings were a "distraction" (as talked about in my original post).

However, in being fair....did you look at the dozens, upon dozens of other shots where I have marked all comments as helpful?! Or, were you "cherry picking" the 2 photos to bolster a "nit pick"? :)

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

01/27/2009 03:04:38 PM · #27

Originally posted by dahkota:

I left DPC for a year to get out of the "Must score high and submit DPC friendly images" mentality. I just came back this month and haven't scored the greatest but my brain processes it so differently now that I'm much happier. I couldn't care less about scores, or nit-piks or advice on how to shoot and process - when I submit something I already know its goods and bads. I even know the exact comments I will get and predict them almost word for word, which amuses me endlessly. I am coming here, and submitting to challenges, solely because once in a while I might come across someone who is completely in tune with my view of the world that I don't want to pass up the opportunity.

Congratulations -- I believe that you indeed found the path to (DPC) enlightenment ... and that your pictures will be "better" regardless of the scores they get here.

01/27/2009 03:07:31 PM · #28

Originally posted by Bebe:

Yesterday I voted on "glasses", and ended up giving out a fairly low average vote, for me at least. I was curious to see what was going on in that challenge, and so read the current challenge thread on the scores. There, many people complained about the low scores & lack of comments. I felt guilty, and so went through & commented on a bunch, particularly the ones I scored the lowest. I always feel badly about doing that, as I'm certainly no expert. However, I try to politely explain why I voted the way I did, knowing that I would want feedback from someone who gave me a lower score (btw, my lowest vote was a 4, and there weren't that many of those). Maybe my feedback isn't the best, but at least it's an explanation of my vote.

Today, I find yet another thread whining about people's voting pattern or the way they comment. I just don't get it. This is the internet, people! If you don't want certain types of comments or votes, just show your pictures to your friends & family, or hold it up to a mirror & talk to yourself.

Vented. Done.

LOL...you don't want to hear the comments I give MYSELF! ;-) I'm pretty nasty on my comments to myself and my family doesn't want to look at any more photos as I've used them to death....so, I hear ya!!! :)

FireBird

01/27/2009 03:09:47 PM · #29

Originally posted by PhotoInterest:

Vented....done.

Yup, I post nit-pics and they make DAMN LITTLE DIFFERENCE
in the scores I give.

Posts like yours have a tendency to keep some people from making
comments. I like comments on my entries, as few as I make. I will take ALL COMMENTS given on my work. If someone posts that my entry looks like SH*T my back is waxed just like a duck. Crap slides right off. So if you can't stand the heat, I'd respectfully suggest that you get out of the kitchen. At least you posted this in rant where the entire membership won't see your lovely attitude.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

01/27/2009 03:11:39 PM · #30

Originally posted by pawdrix:

I've been at the point for a few years where I don't wish to have ANY comments on my Challenge entries, at all.

There's an automatic assumption that people are looking to be educated by the masses when they enter an image in a Challenge but in some cases it couldn't be further from the entrants mind.

Maybe we need a no comments button?

"The heads in the upper right kept pulling my eye up there. This effect for me was exacerbated the fact that it's the brightest part of the image. It also seems like there's another face shape in the right foreground. So my eye kind of darts there as well.
There's generally a lot going on in the image: the faces, the text, the sharp diagonal of the railing"

That's part of a comment I received that did have some positive elements. I should add (though, not in this clip) where I thought this person parachuted a ton of useless, bullshit, baggage all over my shot NONE of which I found pertinent or valuable.

It's mostly noob/beginner nonsense that as Slip said people pick up when they join the site. I used to regurgitate the same stuff when I joined, back when I thought I knew something about photography. Foolishness when I look back on it and even a little embarassing. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

Again, I vote for a No Comments Button.

I really chuckled at this post...THANK YOU because I needed this chuckle! I can SO relate and I do agree with you that it's likely regurgitated commenting. You have put it in a way that made me laugh and that is worth a lot! :)

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

01/27/2009 03:12:59 PM · #31

Originally posted by PhotoInterest:

The second one (the buggy), I did not mark those as helpful because I couldn't move an entire set of buildings nor, did I want to! If you look at the description I put in on this one....the very fact that the buggy was sitting in an industrial area was PART of what I was trying to portray in this shot! So, it wasn't "helpful" to me that the buildings were a "distraction" (as talked about in my original post).

Regardless of your own intent, isn't it "helpful" to know how people will react to a similar image in the future? Your own interpretation or vision just may be out-of-step with the general public -- absolutely a good idea in an artist -- but don't you want to know where your vision lies on the public perception spectrum? I find pretty much any comment which gives me any insight at all as to what the viewer thought when the photo popped up on their screen to be "helpful" -- I might think their opinion is BS, but I know how they reacted. Whether I want to take that potential reation into account in future submissions is a separate question.

pawdrix

Nikon D700

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.4D IF

01/27/2009 03:13:34 PM · #32

Originally posted by K10DGuy:

Or continue to believe that your way of looking at things is the only way of looking at things and continually be disappointed and bitter :)

I've been here since 2004 and paid in 2005 and I'm not whining just talking. This site does shift and change, a little here and a little there. I've been around long enough to see that, so to say it's been one way or another and always will be isn't necesarrilly true.

You're reading me the wrong way. I'm not saying people should see my "way of looking at things is the only way of looking at things". The opposite, in fact.

I find many comments generated in the Challenges to be telling that there is "only one way of looking at things" and that's unhealthy. The site isn't in a stage of arrested development, is it? I think it's a fair point to make every now and again.

This is a Challenge specific issue. I have my niche here...the side Challenges where people seem to be of a broader mindset. I have taught enough people through comments, PM's, personal request for editing techniques and I have learned the same way. I think folks that leave techno-centric comments are fine but many might agree that some of it is fabrication and born from a simplistic viewpoint or a case of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing.

That shouldn't go unchecked. The site will stagnate if it does.

Wouldn't you like to see people put their most creative work in Challenges or hold it back because they know it will be trashed?

GenIE-When it's on the rack, who care at that point?

Message edited by author 2009-01-27 15:23:00.

K3Master

Pentax K-3

Pentax D-FA* 70-200mm f/2.8 ED DC AW

01/27/2009 03:14:28 PM · #33

Originally posted by photointerest:

Ok, I know that I\'m going to get pounded on by the DPC Brown Noses and Hardcores. But, warning...you\'ll just be proving my rant right by pounding on me for my opinion because you\'ll be defending this type of thinking.

Nice little caveat you put in the end there.

Must be nice to know everything ;)

K3Master

Pentax K-3

Pentax D-FA* 70-200mm f/2.8 ED DC AW

01/27/2009 03:15:58 PM · #34

Originally posted by pawdrix:

Originally posted by K10DGuy:

Or continue to believe that your way of looking at things is the only way of looking at things and continually be disappointed and bitter :)

I've been here since 2004 and paid in 2005 and I'm not whining just talking. This ste does shift and change, a little here and a little there. I've been here long enough to see that so to say it's been one way or another isn't necesarrilt true.

You're reading me the wrong way. I'm not saying people should see my "way of looking at things is the only way of looking at things". The opposite, in fact.

I find many comments generated in the Challenges to be telling that there is "only one way of looking at things" and that's unhealthy. The site isn't in a stage of arrested development, is it? I think it's a fair point to make every now and again.

This is a Challenge specific issue. I have my niche here...the side Challenges where people seem to be of a broader mindset. I have taught enough people through comments, PM's, personal request for editing techniques and I have learned the same way.

Wouldn't you like to see people put their most creative work in Challenges or hold it back because they know it will be trashed?

Actually, I'm a little disappointed that the one line of my whole write up you focused on is the tongue-in-cheek leave-off. The rest of what you say is pretty much everything I had said before that. As for your last line, I would rather people accept everything they get when it comes to comments, realize that for the most part, people are simply making an effort, and eventually learn to find a decent balance between playing the game and being themselves. Some people do just that. It's a hard road, but it's not impossible.

Message edited by author 2009-01-27 15:18:26.

FireBird

01/27/2009 03:17:00 PM · #35

Originally posted by pawdrix:

Again, I vote for a No Comments Button.

I vote for a NO Comments Button too! I would rather reserve
my shitty, noob, stupid, nit-picking comments for those
who really want them.

pawdrix

Nikon D700

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.4D IF

01/27/2009 03:28:00 PM · #36

Originally posted by fir3bird:

Originally posted by pawdrix:

Again, I vote for a No Comments Button.

I vote for a NO Comments Button too! I would rather reserve
my shitty, noob, stupid, nit-picking comments for those
who really want them.

LOL Exactly!

For the record, I can throw techno, noob, nit-picking comments around with the best of them BUT only if that's what people want. I'm game for that but do try hard to keep it in reserve. Lemme at'em.

Message edited by author 2009-01-27 15:34:30.

Yo_Spiff

Olympus OM-D E-M5 Mark III

Olympus 12-100mm f/4.0 M.Zuiko ED IS PRO

01/27/2009 03:40:39 PM · #37

Originally posted by fir3bird:

Another "Yea" for this idea!

I may be one of the nitpickers at times. I don't feel I am trying to find flaws, but trying to identify and explain to the photographer why I gave them a low or mediocre vote. I feel obligated to explain a 4 or less because I hate it when that happens to me. (Unless it's a shoehorn, because I expect low votes on those). If a shot doesn't thrill me or just seems so-so, I then try to figure out why it doesn't work or could work better. I am probably less nitpicky than I was shortly after starting here. As my own photography has improved, I have also learned to appreciate other genres and approaches to doing things.

I see that I was one of the nitpickers on your buggy shot, (and it HAS been marked helpful) but as I previously mentioned, it was an effort to try and identify why the entry was only so-so for me. I realized upon reading your notes after the challenge, that the industrial setting was intended on your part to show how out of place this was, but that did not carry across to me.

I guess only the commenter really knows if they are nitpicking or offering genuine explanation. It may be as a salesperson I used to work with told me once: "Perception is reality". In other words, if you perceive something a certain way, then THAT is the reality, regardless of what anyone else thinks. If one thinks a critique is nitpicking, then it is. If one thinks a short story for a comment is unhelpful, then it's unhelpful.

scarbrd

Leica M10

Leica 35mm f/1.4 Summilux M Aspherical MF - Black

01/27/2009 03:41:00 PM · #38

If you really want an "educated" view of your images, I recommend that you take a little cyberspace walk over to //www.1x.com

There you can enter your best work, no rules, no challenge topic, no deadlines.

You image is first viewed by a panel of screeners. These are other artists with varying degrees of photographic success in the art world. If they think it's 1x worthy, they can choose to publish it right away or pass it on to member screening.

Once in member screening, the members of the site get to chime in and vote to publish or reject.

And even if it passes member screening, the site screeners can still reject it.

So enter your best work and when they reach into it with their bare hands and rip the very heart of your image out and show it to you while it's still beating only to let you watch it die, then you'll know what rejection is all about.

It's one thing to be rejected by what you call "uneducated" voters; it's another to be rejected by people who know better.

Like DPC, there are some amazing images at 1x. The difference is you don't see images that would get the equivalent of really low scores here.

01/27/2009 04:59:31 PM · #39

Originally posted by pawdrix:

Originally posted by scarbrd:

Not at all. Enter every challenge you can. I did that when I first got here.

I'm just saying you should manage your expectations when it comes to DPC voting.

If you expect people to ignore elements of your entry for whatever reason and expect they find the gem in your entry as you have, you might be disapointed.

Take DPC for what it is, try to learn from it. Develop your style and stive to communicate your message through your pictures.

In the communication process, when something is misunderstood it is usually the fault of the one trying to communicate, not the one trying to understand.

I do know what you're saying. I'm just trying to make a few point and show a different way of thinking.

The irony is that that little image above (please ignore the obnoxiously huge border for the moment)is actually a commercially viable piece of work. I see so much of that type of work being used for trendy cutting edge products in niche magazines, Bus Stop Ads etc.

My main concern and an issue I had to fight while listenting to criticism, mosty DPC centric, was getting it ALL out of my head.

It's really quite stifling, if you do wish to be photographically creative. I'm not pissing on good clean craft but good or great images go far deeper and occasioanlly rely on other elements (not clean technique) to get them there.

Not enough people understand that and that dissappoints me.

Pawdrix....that's an excellent point you've made in the fact that I'm finding, personally, is that I'm missing out on different styles and a lot of creativity because I'm having these tapes running through my head from these comments. Your case in point here is quite a viable one. There is a tremendous amount of fluctuation in styles of photography and much of it would be ripped to shreds in here. I've proven that (to myself as that was my only aim) by getting the opinions of members in here on a commercial piece of photography. It was totally torn apart! Yet, that particular piece was done by a famous photography firm that has been putting bankrolls into their bank account galore with this type of work.

I also find being too hampered by technicals..."stiffling" creativity wise. While there is something to be said for the technicals and they must be the backbone of a great shot, it also discourages quite a number of styles. And, when pressed upon too greatly, it also hampers creativity as one is ever mindful of that element of photography and to the point of boxing in choice and blocking out meaning or impact.

Some of the most famous photographs in the world would not be published or used if it had to stand up to DPC voting standards. We'd miss out on a lot in the photography world.

Message edited by author 2009-01-27 17:00:25.

01/27/2009 05:13:38 PM · #40

Originally posted by CEJ:

Perhaps some of the nit-picking or voting can be attributed to something like this: a recent thread had one person arguing that people do not take enough time to view a picture before voting/commenting/both and they were upset by this - produces bad or not relevant comments, lower votes, etc. However, if you view this person's comments given for a recent challenge, they voted and commented on all entries in under 7 minutes based on the time stamps from the first comment and the last comment (they commented on 100%) So, I did the math and figured out they spent less than 5 seconds on each image...to vote and comment.

I suppose what I am saying is this: obviously people don't realize how transparent some things are on this site; people do not always do as they say in the forums; 'speed voting/commenting' just to get it done or go in some thread and boast they commented 100% does happen; a challenge entry is ALWAYS liked more by the photographer than it is by the voters; take what you can from the comments you get and don't complain. Just ignore the rest.

All these things have been brought up dozens of times and obviously it does no good because, well, people are people. Shoot for yourself, if it fits a challenge, fine, if not it makes no difference since you took the shot for YOU and not for US. As you - the OP - said, get a life! If it bothers you that much perhaps this is not the place for you to be. A rant will not now, as in the past it hasn't and in the future it probably won't, change anything.

Chris, I do have a life. It also includes photography and obviously, part (a very small part) of that life has been spent in DPC...over 2 years' worth and I also participate in other photography sites as well.

As for ranting changing anything...well, that is why it's called a "rant" and why I didn't post this anywhere else but, on this board (not in any photography forums). It wasn't with the intention that it would CHANGE anything...it was a VENT. If someone else felt the same way that I did, they were free to post along those feelings as well. Had I meant it to CHANGE anything, I would have posted it on a more serious level on one of the other threads. I didn't. I posted it here, as a "rant" and nothing more.

But, you've just had a little "rant" of your own here, haven't you? That's what I did. Isn't that what this board is for?

Pentax D-FA* 70-200mm f/2.8 ED DC AW

01/27/2009 05:25:49 PM · #41

Originally posted by K10DGuy:

Originally posted by pawdrix:

Originally posted by K10DGuy:

It is my opinion that if you are at a point in your photography where you absolutely cannot accept (or outright ignore) the commenting that occurs on this site due to the vast differences of all involved, that it just might be time to take your work elsewhere.

I can certainly accept criticism but I would prefer it to be from an educated viewer.

Are you saying that people here aren't at a point of educating themselves beyond a Stock mentality and that any image placed on this site is automatically demanding technical critique?

I assume members searching for higher ground here on DPC shouldn't bother. If someone such as myslef hope for a higher level of discourse we should forget it and move on?

My memberships up in a month or so...maybe you're right.

I think that we are a part of a very diverse, culturally and otherwise, website with people of all creeds and levels, and that we should learn to take the good and take the bad as a part of it. As for saying that any image place on this site is automatically demanding technical critique? Hrm, demanding, no, but open for? Yes. That's what this site is. It's what it always has been. There are plenty of ways to find higher ground and level of discourse here, and many people have it and find it. That doesn't mean that just outright calling out people for leaving comments you don't enjoy is good either.

There's only one way to lift the level of discourse and education, and that's to become a teacher. Just sitting back and whining and hoping it happens automatically isn't helping anyone. It also doesn't help to believe that your own photography is above critique. It's your right to believe that that photograph that sells to a magazine is untouchable, but if you put it out there to a wider general audience, it becomes open season. Period. Not saying that you are like this completely, but I get that feeling from your posts a lot.

I don't know what else to really tell you, but like someone above me said, even a comment like "That crack in the wall is very distracting" helps me in a lot of ways AS PERTAINING TO THE IMMEDIATE NATURE of the challenges and the reason I'm submitting to this website in the first place, and that reason is very simple, competition. I am here to learn to score well in a mass market. If that means having to deal with things that I wouldn't even think about dealing with on a photo that is going up in a gallery, or a photo I'm selling to a newspaper, or a photo that I'm hanging on Aunt Linda's wall, then so be it. If that means listening to people that for 90% of my outside DPC photography life, I wouldn't give the time of day to, so be it.

There's a vast world of photography out there, and DPC itself is a vast melting-pot of photography and photographers. Like Posthumous and many others, it's about finding your own niche within it, but letting go enough to play the game as well. C'est la vie and all that. Instead of trying to change the entire site to your liking, hammer out a small part of it for yourself and let the rest roll off you.

Or continue to believe that your way of looking at things is the only way of looking at things and continually be disappointed and bitter :)

Just a point here to consider, Ed....in talking about a mass market, there are all kinds of "mass markets" in photography. Street photography for instance, is not well liked in DPC because it doesn't fit the mold of DPC's tradtional qualities. Technicals are usually horrendous by DPC voting standards as one example. Yet, there is a "mass market" for Street photography. The same holds true of other styles of photography such as candids.

Point? Well, my point is that in saying that one is learning to appeal to "the mass market" by learning how to please the voters/members in DPC, one can only say that they have learned to appeal to ONE type of "mass market" and therefore, is pegging themselves into a particular style. That is why I also belong to other sites otherwise, I could become pegged into one hole and one hole only type of photography.

Just a thought.

K3Master

Pentax K-3

01/27/2009 05:27:25 PM · #42

Originally posted by PhotoInterest:

Originally posted by K10DGuy:

I think that we are a part of a very diverse, culturally and otherwise, website with people of all creeds and levels, and that we should learn to take the good and take the bad as a part of it. As for saying that any image place on this site is automatically demanding technical critique? Hrm, demanding, no, but open for? Yes. That's what this site is. It's what it always has been. There are plenty of ways to find higher ground and level of discourse here, and many people have it and find it. That doesn't mean that just outright calling out people for leaving comments you don't enjoy is good either.

There's only one way to lift the level of discourse and education, and that's to become a teacher. Just sitting back and whining and hoping it happens automatically isn't helping anyone. It also doesn't help to believe that your own photography is above critique. It's your right to believe that that photograph that sells to a magazine is untouchable, but if you put it out there to a wider general audience, it becomes open season. Period. Not saying that you are like this completely, but I get that feeling from your posts a lot.

I don't know what else to really tell you, but like someone above me said, even a comment like "That crack in the wall is very distracting" helps me in a lot of ways AS PERTAINING TO THE IMMEDIATE NATURE of the challenges and the reason I'm submitting to this website in the first place, and that reason is very simple, competition. I am here to learn to score well in a mass market. If that means having to deal with things that I wouldn't even think about dealing with on a photo that is going up in a gallery, or a photo I'm selling to a newspaper, or a photo that I'm hanging on Aunt Linda's wall, then so be it. If that means listening to people that for 90% of my outside DPC photography life, I wouldn't give the time of day to, so be it.

There's a vast world of photography out there, and DPC itself is a vast melting-pot of photography and photographers. Like Posthumous and many others, it's about finding your own niche within it, but letting go enough to play the game as well. C'est la vie and all that. Instead of trying to change the entire site to your liking, hammer out a small part of it for yourself and let the rest roll off you.

Or continue to believe that your way of looking at things is the only way of looking at things and continually be disappointed and bitter :)

Just a point here to consider, Ed....in talking about a mass market, there are all kinds of "mass markets" in photography. Street photography for instance, is not well liked in DPC because it doesn't fit the mold of DPC's tradtional qualities. Technicals are usually horrendous by DPC voting standards as one example. Yet, there is a "mass market" for Street photography. The same holds true of other styles of photography such as candids.

Point? Well, my point is that in saying that one is learning to appeal to "the mass market" by learning how to please the voters/members in DPC, one can only say that they have learned to appeal to ONE type of "mass market" and therefore, is pegging themselves into a particular style. That is why I also belong to other sites otherwise, I could become pegged into one hole and one hole only type of photography.

Just a thought.

Context. I am learning to appeal to the mass market of DPC and DPC alone when I enter on DPC. Kind of goes without saying, I thought.

*EDIT* Especially since my whole reply was based on, you know, talking about DPC specific things ;D

Message edited by author 2009-01-27 17:28:54.