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04/02/2011 08:54:12 PM · #1426 |
Those really old posts Shannon were before I did understand the difference between the two and you can find other posts where I correct myself and say that I have been meaning universal morality.
April 9th, 2009:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
When I speak about absolute morality, I mean Moral Universalism. I do not feel one can adhere to Moral Universalism without subscribing to some Supreme Being. Read the wiki and get back to me with your thoughts. |
But you are right. I have been claiming Moral Realism for many years and I stick by it. You claim Moral Error Theory and that's fine. I'll take some solace in having the vast majority of humanity on my side. If I'm wrong, then we're all wrong. You can keep your usual position of standing for nothing and stick with MET.
Message edited by author 2011-04-02 20:57:57. |
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04/03/2011 12:21:13 AM · #1427 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'll take some solace in having the vast majority of humanity on my side. If I'm wrong, then we're all wrong. You can keep your usual position of standing for nothing and stick with MET. |
ROFL x 3 |
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04/03/2011 07:21:07 PM · #1428 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
... I'll take some solace in having the vast majority of humanity on my side. If I'm wrong, then we're all wrong. |
I don't think you should start the "Happy Dance" just yet Doc... I would be surprised if you had the majority of participants in this thread on your side ... at least to the degree you seem to suggest. :O)
Ray |
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04/03/2011 07:26:57 PM · #1429 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Nullix:
I'm sure God has something in mind for Atheists, but we'll never know until the end. |
No, we won't. Once our brains stop functioning, we can't know anything since there would be nothing to process or hold that information. It's amazing that primitive Greek and Egyptian concepts of the heart or "soul" as the seat of knowledge and rational thought (and the brain a mostly useless organ) still persist to this day. |
That would lead me to believe you're a materialist. If there is no soul, what's the point of life? We'll all die into nothingness. Why have morals if there is nothing besides material in this universe?
BTW, there are other primitive Greek concepts that are still in use. Democracy, Pythagorean Theorem, Euclidean Geometry. We're just foolish if we believe in those concepts. |
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04/03/2011 07:37:14 PM · #1430 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
That would lead me to believe you're a materialist. If there is no soul, what's the point of life? We'll all die into nothingness. Why have morals if there is nothing besides material in this universe? |
Life is for the living and morals are not the invention of some super power... they are governs developed by the mores of society, nothing more, nothing less.
Originally posted by Nullix:
BTW, there are other primitive Greek concepts that are still in use. Democracy, Pythagorean Theorem, Euclidean Geometry. We're just foolish if we believe in those concepts. |
You may wish to go back and re-read (carefully this time) what  Scalvert actually posted. He was very specific in what concept ought not be given consideration today, but if you believe what he alluded to is still valid, then you are undoubtedly one of the few that does.
Ray
Message edited by author 2011-04-03 19:38:13. |
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04/04/2011 09:10:45 AM · #1431 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Life is for the living |
Oh, that it then. We have nothing to learn from primitive Greek philosophers any more.
Originally posted by RayEthier:
You may wish to go back and re-read (carefully this time) what Scalvert actually posted. He was very specific in what concept ought not be given consideration today, but if you believe what he alluded to is still valid, then you are undoubtedly one of the few that does. |
I've read through it a few times (it's only a few lines) and I'm still not seeing it.
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04/04/2011 09:22:48 AM · #1432 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Life is for the living |
Oh, that it then. We have nothing to learn from primitive Greek philosophers any more.
Originally posted by RayEthier:
You may wish to go back and re-read (carefully this time) what Scalvert actually posted. He was very specific in what concept ought not be given consideration today, but if you believe what he alluded to is still valid, then you are undoubtedly one of the few that does. |
I've read through it a few times (it's only a few lines) and I'm still not seeing it. |
In simple terms, what do you use to think? To store your memories? Are they stored in your heart/soul or your brain? |
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04/04/2011 10:51:12 AM · #1433 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
If there is no soul, what's the point of life? We'll all die into nothingness. |
Is there a point to a dolphin's life? An ant? An amoeba? Why does there have to be a purpose? An appreciation of life is reason enough to live.
Originally posted by Nullix:
Why have morals if there is nothing besides material in this universe? |
Because most people would rather live in peace than in pain. |
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04/04/2011 11:07:07 AM · #1434 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Nullix:
If there is no soul, what's the point of life? We'll all die into nothingness. |
Is there a point to a dolphin's life? An ant? An amoeba? Why does there have to be a purpose? An appreciation of life is reason enough to live. |
Maybe I'm just a dreamer, but I'd like to think there's more to life than our own appreciation. Seems cruel for us to live a full and content life only to have it all go away once we die.
I guess the point of a dolphin's life is shark bait.
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04/04/2011 12:11:22 PM · #1435 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Seems cruel for us to live a full and content life only to have it all go away once we die. |
What could possibly be cruel about living a full and content life, and where else would it go? As they say, you can't take it with you. Without a functioning brain you would have no means to store and process information or sensory perceptions. If such information could be stored and manipulated in nonmaterial form, then there wouldn't be any point in having brains in the first place. The ancient Greeks and other cultures were not aware of this, and assumed knowledge and identity were derived from the heart. Egyptians discarded the brains as waste during the mummification process, and some cultures imagined a person's essence could be reincarnated as an eagle or worm. The concept should have died out long ago with similarly-absurd notions of a flat earth, geocentricity and crystals curing disease. While neural mechanisms remain a mystery in some respects, we know darn well that our thoughts, feelings, and personalities are functions of the brain. You think, therefore you are... and when you cease to think you will no longer be. |
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04/04/2011 02:25:15 PM · #1436 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Nullix:
Seems cruel for us to live a full and content life only to have it all go away once we die. |
What could possibly be cruel about living a full and content life, and where else would it go? As they say, you can't take it with you. Without a functioning brain you would have no means to store and process information or sensory perceptions. If such information could be stored and manipulated in nonmaterial form, then there wouldn't be any point in having brains in the first place. The ancient Greeks and other cultures were not aware of this, and assumed knowledge and identity were derived from the heart. Egyptians discarded the brains as waste during the mummification process, and some cultures imagined a person's essence could be reincarnated as an eagle or worm. The concept should have died out long ago with similarly-absurd notions of a flat earth, geocentricity and crystals curing disease. While neural mechanisms remain a mystery in some respects, we know darn well that our thoughts, feelings, and personalities are functions of the brain. You think, therefore you are... and when you cease to think you will no longer be. |
I think this is the part that scares the pants off of the people who are religious. If religion helps get you through the night because you believe you'll live forever, then so be it. I don't ever try to take it away from anyone who believes it. I just don't want anyone to tell me I have to believe it and live a certain way because of it. |
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04/04/2011 03:05:39 PM · #1437 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Nullix:
Seems cruel for us to live a full and content life only to have it all go away once we die. |
What could possibly be cruel about living a full and content life... You think, therefore you are... and when you cease to think you will no longer be. |
You don't think it's cruel that we live a happy long life only to have it all taken away from us in the end? That just seem sick and twisted. Like stealing candy from a baby. Maybe it's me, but it seems sad to think we cease to exist when we die.
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04/04/2011 03:45:57 PM · #1438 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Maybe it's me, but it seems sad to think we cease to exist when we die. |
What do you think happens to your dog when it dies? How about a mouse, a spider, a sponge? Can you please describe the anatomical feature which provides the mechanism for the personality to survive coporeal demise?
If you believe your personality will survive in some non-corporeal form following biological death, how is that different from saying you'll become a ghost?
PS: I agree completely, it's sad. I wouldn't be surprised if a large number of atheists, given the option, wouldn't wish that the Christian (or some other) version of life after death were true, but no longer sit on Santa's lap, blow out birthday candles, or play the lottery either ...
Message edited by author 2011-04-04 15:49:26. |
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04/04/2011 04:06:30 PM · #1439 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Nullix:
Maybe it's me, but it seems sad to think we cease to exist when we die. |
What do you think happens to your dog when it dies? How about a mouse, a spider, a sponge? Can you please describe the anatomical feature which provides the mechanism for the personality to survive coporeal demise?
If you believe your personality will survive in some non-corporeal form following biological death, how is that different from saying you'll become a ghost?
PS: I agree completely, it's sad. I wouldn't be surprised if a large number of atheists, given the option, wouldn't wish that the Christian (or some other) version of life after death were true, but no longer sit on Santa's lap, blow out birthday candles, or play the lottery either ... |
There's a lot of things I WISH were true. An eternity in some false utopia that I probably won't be happy in anyway? Not one of them :D
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04/04/2011 04:47:06 PM · #1440 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Maybe it's me, but it seems sad to think we cease to exist when we die. |
I guess this is how you and I differ on how we view life and death.
Personally, I have had two sets of parents... and while I never knew my biological father since he died when I was quite young, I did get to know and love my biological mother and foster parents till the day they died.
From a personal perspective, they did not cease to exist upon their demise. The only thing that left was their physical presence. Their morals, ideas, ideals, goals, ambitions, words of wisdom, sense of humour and a variety of other personal traits live on and continue to guide me in life.
I do not wallow in the sadness of their demise, but rather rejoice in the fact that I had the great fortune of knowing them and having them as prime examples on just how I could lead a good life.
Ray |
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04/04/2011 05:08:55 PM · #1441 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
... they did not cease to exist upon their demise. The only thing that left was their physical presence. Their morals, ideas, ideals, goals, ambitions, words of wisdom, sense of humour and a variety of other personal traits live on and continue to guide me in life.
Ray |
I think the concept that somehow ancestors "live on" as long as they remain in the memory of their descendents underlies many forms of ancestor-worship, including all those OT "begats" and the succession of English kings ... |
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04/04/2011 05:15:22 PM · #1442 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Maybe it's me, but it seems sad to think we cease to exist when we die. |
I used to love debating this with people, discussing ideas of some kind of eternal consciousness or energy living on separately from our brain.
One night I posed the 'what happens when you die?' question to a colleague over a drink. He answered with two words that I remember to this day; "Game over"
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04/04/2011 11:21:22 PM · #1443 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Nullix:
Maybe it's me, but it seems sad to think we cease to exist when we die. |
What do you think happens to your dog when it dies? How about a mouse, a spider, a sponge? Can you please describe the anatomical feature which provides the mechanism for the personality to survive coporeal demise?
If you believe your personality will survive in some non-corporeal form following biological death, how is that different from saying you'll become a ghost? |
I'm stumped. Doesn't everyone know this answer? Your soul. We are made up of your body and soul. When we or anything dies, our soul is disconnected from our body. I thought everyone had this idea. Even my pagan friends. At least my pagan friends believe in the non-material world. Not even people on DPC believe that.
You live, you die, game over...what's the point?
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04/04/2011 11:29:08 PM · #1444 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
You live, you die, game over...what's the point? |
I guess the point is that some of us can enjoy life without a belief that we will live in either eternal bliss or damnation, and that our are actions are not predicated on fear.
You might also want to ask some of your pagean friends if the spiritual world they believe in necessarily means reincarnation in a human form...you might be surprised at some of the answers you get. (Coming back as a bicycle seat may not be the afterlife one cherishes.) :O)
Ray
Message edited by author 2011-04-04 23:29:42. |
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04/05/2011 12:14:15 AM · #1445 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
We are made up of your body and soul. When we or anything dies, our soul is disconnected from our body. I thought everyone had this idea. |
Maybe 200 years ago, not today. Any non-corporeal mechanism that might contain your thoughts, memories or personality would eliminate the need for a large brain (and preclude Alzheimer's).
Originally posted by Nullix:
You live, you die, game over...what's the point? |
What's the point of a baseball game or a ride on a rollercoaster? You still come in, have some fun, game over. Live for the moment and enjoy it, introduce new people, play fair and maybe create a legacy of memories and achievements that will endure. Sooner or later the park closes. Anything that grows– whether it's a tree, a crystal, a star or a person– follows the same sequence: it appears, runs its course and eventually dies out. No point is necessary. |
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04/05/2011 12:29:29 AM · #1446 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Nullix:
We are made up of your body and soul. When we or anything dies, our soul is disconnected from our body. I thought everyone had this idea. |
Maybe 200 years ago, not today. Any non-corporeal mechanism that might contain your thoughts, memories or personality would eliminate the need for a large brain (and preclude Alzheimer's).
Originally posted by Nullix:
You live, you die, game over...what's the point? |
What's the point of a baseball game or a ride on a rollercoaster? You still come in, have some fun, game over. Live for the moment and enjoy it, introduce new people, play fair and maybe create a legacy of memories and achievements that will endure. Sooner or later the park closes. Anything that grows– whether it's a tree, a crystal, a star or a person– follows the same sequence: it appears, runs its course and eventually dies out. No point is necessary. |
Not certain. What is the point of a:
Baseball game
Rollercoaster
Having fun
Living in the moment
Playing fair
Creating memories
Achievements that will endure
If one day, it'll all be for nothing? The memories won't last nor endure. |
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04/05/2011 01:46:33 AM · #1447 |
| If you think having fun, playing fair and creating memories or enduring achievements is all for nothing, then you aren't living. Baseball games and rollercoaster rides don't last forever, but we still find value in the experience. |
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04/05/2011 01:14:03 PM · #1448 |
Despair is not an irrational consequence for materialism. Look at some of the writings of the French Existentialists who had come through the societal rejection of God during the French Enlightenment:
"It was true, I had always realized it — I hadn’t any ‘right’ to exist at all. I had appeared by chance, I existed like a stone, a plant, a microbe. I could feel nothing to myself but an inconsequential buzzing. I was thinking . . . that here we are eating and drinking, to preserve our precious existence, and that there’s nothing, nothing, absolutely no reason for existing."
- Jean Paul Sartre, Nausea
Or we could go to the English literary elite:
"If one puts aside the existence of God and the survival after life as too doubtfulâ€Â¦one has to make up one’s mind as to the use of life. If death ends all, if I have neither to hope for good nor to fear evil, I must ask myself what am I hear for, and how in these circumstances must I conduct myself. Now the answer is plain, but so unpalatable that most will not face it. There is no meaning for life, and [thus] life has no meaning."
Somerset Maugham, The Summing
The reality of positions like Shannon's (and I'm not placing everybody else in his camp), is that while it is the most defensible position by staunchly refusing to make any ontological claims, it is a bleak, dreary, and abyssal existence. Naturalistic materialism dictates there is no God. There is no objective purpose. There is no meaningful morality. There is no robust free will. To claim any of these as existing would stand counter to Naturalistic Materialism and would make an ontological claim, something Shannon is quite against unless he has irrefutable, empiric evidence to support his case. We are nothing more than Newtonian automatons; our actions and courses predetermined save for the chaotic puppetmaster of quantum chaos and uncertainty.
Coldest. Worldview. Ever.
Message edited by author 2011-04-05 13:47:53. |
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04/05/2011 02:14:30 PM · #1449 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
...it is a bleak, dreary, and abyssal existence. Naturalistic materialism dictates there is no God. There is no objective purpose... Coldest. Worldview. Ever. |
Oh, you must be a barrel of fun playing Monopoly or Scrabble. "WHAT?!? The game is over and that's it? There's nothing else? No objective purpose, no lasting consequences? No vacation in paradise, no six pack of virgins, no shaking a hand I no longer have with a great-great-great-great-grand uncle who no longer moves? What's the point then... why even bother? "
I can think of no sadder existence than requiring a purpose for everything: a reason to live, to view a sunset, to laugh and play, to dream, to feel loved and experience happiness. We climb a mountain because it's there. If that's no good enough for you, then you're the one missing out! |
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04/05/2011 03:22:16 PM · #1450 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Despair is not an irrational consequence for materialism. Look at some of the writings of the French Existentialists who had come through the societal rejection of God during the French Enlightenment:
"It was true, I had always realized it — I hadn’t any ‘right’ to exist at all. I had appeared by chance, I existed like a stone, a plant, a microbe. I could feel nothing to myself but an inconsequential buzzing. I was thinking . . . that here we are eating and drinking, to preserve our precious existence, and that there’s nothing, nothing, absolutely no reason for existing."
- Jean Paul Sartre, Nausea
Or we could go to the English literary elite:
"If one puts aside the existence of God and the survival after life as too doubtfulâ€Â¦one has to make up one’s mind as to the use of life. If death ends all, if I have neither to hope for good nor to fear evil, I must ask myself what am I hear for, and how in these circumstances must I conduct myself. Now the answer is plain, but so unpalatable that most will not face it. There is no meaning for life, and [thus] life has no meaning."
Somerset Maugham, The Summing
The reality of positions like Shannon's (and I'm not placing everybody else in his camp), is that while it is the most defensible position by staunchly refusing to make any ontological claims, it is a bleak, dreary, and abyssal existence. Naturalistic materialism dictates there is no God. There is no objective purpose. There is no meaningful morality. There is no robust free will. To claim any of these as existing would stand counter to Naturalistic Materialism and would make an ontological claim, something Shannon is quite against unless he has irrefutable, empiric evidence to support his case. We are nothing more than Newtonian automatons; our actions and courses predetermined save for the chaotic puppetmaster of quantum chaos and uncertainty.
Coldest. Worldview. Ever. |
Yet we love and laugh and cry and feel and enjoy and detest and experience. Just like anyone else. What seems cold to you is perfectly comforting, to me.
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