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12/09/2010 02:02:56 AM · #826 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I don't think Shannon hasn't read the Bible (although maybe not for a while). He knows his stuff, but he chooses to obfuscate the issue on purpose. |
I'm sure he has read it, or at least part of it. I said that he "doesn't read" the Bible (i.e. not regularly), which is an assumption but based on how he uses it in his arguments I'd say it's an accurate one. He's a smart guy and I'm not trying to bash his intelligence. I'm just saying that it's a little funny sometimes to see how people here (not just scalvert) quote scripture as if they've spent their whole lives reading/studying it. |
Guys don't let your guard down. You've already lost dponlyme. You're the only two left protecting the castle of unknowable knowledge from the legion of heathens under the command of Lord Scalvert. Don't let us down!
Message edited by author 2010-12-09 02:04:08.
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12/09/2010 11:39:55 AM · #827 |
You are forgetting the armies of the sarcastic and apathetic. They roam these parts as well... :P
Message edited by author 2010-12-09 11:40:11. |
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12/09/2010 11:49:28 AM · #828 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
You are forgetting the armies of the sarcastic and apathetic. They roam these parts as well... :P |
you rang? |
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12/09/2010 04:22:42 PM · #829 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
I'm just saying that it's a little funny sometimes to see how people here (not just scalvert) quote scripture as if they've spent their whole lives reading/studying it. |
That's pretty much a projection of your take on it. I don't recall much of anybody other than you claiming to be anything close to a biblical scholar.
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
It's also a little funny when adherents confuse themselves with scholars, or when they make quirky assertions of how much deeper they can and do read into things.
;) Really, any assertion that one reading of The Bible is correct is laughable. |
Amen! LOL!!!
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12/10/2010 06:26:05 AM · #830 |
Originally posted by yanko:
the castle of unknowable knowledge |
I kinda like this description. It really seems fitting when you consider that there is absolutely no way whatsoever to substantiate the claims of the faithful.
I have my own views about faith, God, destiny, fate, chaos, and all that, but it has always seemed to me that it was a personal thing. I wonder what makes people of religion feel that they are charged with imposing their beliefs onto others.....if the relationship between a man and his God is what will make the difference come judgement day, how does that involve anyone else?
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12/10/2010 06:57:37 AM · #831 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by yanko:
the castle of unknowable knowledge |
I kinda like this description. It really seems fitting when you consider that there is absolutely no way whatsoever to substantiate the claims of the faithful.
I have my own views about faith, God, destiny, fate, chaos, and all that, but it has always seemed to me that it was a personal thing. I wonder what makes people of religion feel that they are charged with imposing their beliefs onto others.....if the relationship between a man and his God is what will make the difference come judgement day, how does that involve anyone else? |
I agree that it is a personal thing. However, the ultimate truth is like gravity - it is the truth (and the consequences) for everyone, including those who believe they can fly. In that same vein, some "people of religion" feel obligated to warn others who are about to jump about this thing called gravity. I am like Jonah - let 'em jump. ;-) Just kidding. I just try to convey my experience to those who ask and let them make up their own minds. To many Christians (myself included), this is a bit cowardly. So I applaud those who truly believe that they need to help get everyone saved - even though I also find it annoying most of the time. I'll just be happy if I can sneak into the back row of heaven unnoticed.
I also don't feel obligated or compelled to defend my faith because (as we both agree) it is personal. Besides, although I enjoy watching these discussions and always learn some interesting things from them, they are fruitless to the main participants who have already made up their minds or who are trying to find natural evidence of supernatural forces - not that it isn't all around them.
Anywho - good luck to everyone in their own leap of faith or lack thereof.
eta: Notice I said "my experience" - not my "knowledge" or "education" or even "faith" - it's an important point that so many people on both sides miss.
Message edited by author 2010-12-10 07:02:28. |
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12/10/2010 09:50:56 AM · #832 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
I just try to convey my experience to those who ask and let them make up their own minds. |
Here is another important point......those who ask
Too many adherents feel obligated to corner you and try to show/tell you "The Way".
What if I didn't ask you for your views?
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12/10/2010 02:23:16 PM · #833 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
I just try to convey my experience to those who ask and let them make up their own minds. |
Here is another important point......those who ask
Too many adherents feel obligated to corner you and try to show/tell you "The Way".
What if I didn't ask you for your views? |
Well I can't recall ever being cornered and I've worked with many Christians and of course live in the south. I don't think that's the issue at all. For me the issue is the legalization of those views. I'm fine with people telling me about their "good news" as it gives me the opportunity to tell them about mine. |
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12/10/2010 03:23:09 PM · #834 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Well I can't recall ever being cornered |
I sure have....
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12/10/2010 03:51:55 PM · #835 |
Even the most rabid of us on either side of these threads is likely to act differently in real life. Nobody in Rant has got a gun to their head to stay and nobody is forced to read it. The assumption is that everybody wants to be part of the argument discussion. |
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12/10/2010 04:48:40 PM · #836 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by yanko:
Well I can't recall ever being cornered |
I sure have.... |
I'm interested in hearing how that went down. Were you in jail? |
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12/11/2010 07:44:46 AM · #837 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Well I can't recall ever being cornered |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I sure have.... |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
I'm interested in hearing how that went down. Were you in jail? |
No, actually I was at a gay pride festival and was having it explained to me by a fervid wack-job about how I was going to burn in Hell for being a gay. That's just one of the half dozen or so times when I've been exposed to those of the faithful telling me how I was pretty much a lost soul for not seeing life according to their views. It's sad how some of these people don't seem to believe that there's anything but the answer as they see it, and they view you with that strange mix of disdain and pity.
ETA: This was the guy who cornered me at the pride fest.
His organization
The thing that's really scary about some of these people is that they can put up the appearance of sanity and lucidity.
Message edited by author 2010-12-11 07:49:51.
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12/11/2010 08:34:20 AM · #838 |
"Michael Marcavage, is a born-again Christian who opposes evolution, abortion, and homosexuality."
***********
I always find a statement like that a little weird, a little through-the-looking-glass. How can you "oppose" evolution? I mean, abortion is something that people do, consciously, so I guess it makes semantic sense to "oppose" it, but "evolution"? Evolution just IS, right? You can "deny" it if you want to, I suppose, but what does "opposing evolution" mean? It seems to me that when you oppose something, you acknowledge its reality and want to stop the practice of it; but how can you stop evolution, assuming it exists?
Weird, I tell you...
R.
Message edited by author 2010-12-11 09:27:13. |
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12/11/2010 10:39:20 AM · #839 |
I certainly don't deny evolution in the broad sence but I do not believe "man" evolved from a monkey or ape. I believe "God created man in His own image".
Message edited by author 2010-12-11 10:40:14. |
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12/11/2010 11:25:31 AM · #840 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
"Michael Marcavage, is a born-again Christian who opposes evolution, abortion, and homosexuality."
***********
I always find a statement like that a little weird, a little through-the-looking-glass. How can you "oppose" evolution? I mean, abortion is something that people do, consciously, so I guess it makes semantic sense to "oppose" it, but "evolution"? Evolution just IS, right? You can "deny" it if you want to, I suppose, but what does "opposing evolution" mean? It seems to me that when you oppose something, you acknowledge its reality and want to stop the practice of it; but how can you stop evolution, assuming it exists?
Weird, I tell you...
R. |
Easy. It's just like telling gravity to cut it out and sticking your head in the sand ;)
I live in a city dominated by a university, and we get lots of interesting demonstrators that show up the free speech zone of the university. Perennial individuals include a guy who stands on a giant stump in the area and screams at people going to hell for being bad people, as well as 30ft aborted fetus posters. We also have a weekly protest in front of Planned Parenthood, which is literally across the street from the university. While this isn't "cornering," the location of the Free Speech zone is between several giant buildings on campus, as well as the student center, cafeteria, and library. Avoiding it entails adding a good deal to your walk. Personally, I think this is awesome. What I don't find awesome is people coming to my door and harassing me.
I think of myself as a generally nice person, and don't want to be an ass, but almost feel that I have to in order to get out of these conversations. One time I was even packing for a trip to Philly, politely told the individuals that I was an atheist and busy packing for a trip. They inquired as to where I was going, and I, thinking they were just being personable, explained that I was attending a seminar in Philly. Why did they want to know? So they could have somebody try to convert me there. I literally had to cut them off and shut my door in their faces.
In general, being an atheist is a frustrating experience because it makes you a minority. Perhaps the most frustrating thing is that it is widely assumed that atheists are devoid of any and all morals because they don't have a text instructing them. I don't know how many times I've been asked about that. It's bizarre. |
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12/11/2010 04:17:08 PM · #841 |
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
... I literally had to cut them off and shut my door in their faces. |
I can so relate to that.
One day I had a group of people come to my door and discuss religion and the bible with me at lenght. At one point I asked the leader 'Do you save fallen women? " to which he responded "Yes, we do"..
"Great I said, can you save me a few for the weekend? .... They have never been back. :O)
Ray |
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12/11/2010 04:24:58 PM · #842 |
Now that's funny Ray.
Once an encyclopedia salesman came to my door and held out a book and said he "wanted to give this to me". I quickly grabbed it and tried to pull it out of his hands. The sucker wouldn't let go. It seems he really didn't want me to have it, even after us each pulling on it for about five minutes. |
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12/11/2010 05:06:08 PM · #843 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
The thing that's really scary about some of these people is that they can put up the appearance of sanity and lucidity. |
Oddly enough I find your line a bit scarier. To me it suggest that those who hold views outside of the mainstream must be insane for simply having them. If that's the case we are all descendants of the insane. |
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12/11/2010 05:21:36 PM · #844 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
The thing that's really scary about some of these people is that they can put up the appearance of sanity and lucidity. |
Oddly enough I find your line a bit scarier. To me it suggest that those who hold views outside of the mainstream must be insane for simply having them. If that's the case we are all descendants of the insane. |
I guess you neglected to read the part where he said:
"That's just one of the half dozen or so times when I've been exposed to those of the faithful telling me how I was pretty much a lost soul for not seeing life according to their views."
Trust me when I tell you that I do quite often have views that fall well outside the norm. The important thing is that I don't try to have strangers accept my views nor do I strive to have them change their lives to meet certain conditions that I might favour.... therein lies the difference.
Ray |
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12/11/2010 05:58:30 PM · #845 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
The thing that's really scary about some of these people is that they can put up the appearance of sanity and lucidity. |
Oddly enough I find your line a bit scarier. To me it suggest that those who hold views outside of the mainstream must be insane for simply having them. If that's the case we are all descendants of the insane. |
I guess you neglected to read the part where he said:
"That's just one of the half dozen or so times when I've been exposed to those of the faithful telling me how I was pretty much a lost soul for not seeing life according to their views."
Trust me when I tell you that I do quite often have views that fall well outside the norm. The important thing is that I don't try to have strangers accept my views nor do I strive to have them change their lives to meet certain conditions that I might favour.... therein lies the difference.
Ray |
I'm not sure that's the point, Ray. I'm actually with Yanko on this one. Jeb has pretty much established an equivalence here when he says "these people ... can put up the appearance of sanity and lucidity" — he's essentially saying "if you believe in God and the Bible, you are neither sane nor rational", and that's a scary statement if you ask me. Wildly intolerant, on the surface of it.
R. |
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12/11/2010 06:30:46 PM · #846 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
The thing that's really scary about some of these people is that they can put up the appearance of sanity and lucidity. |
Oddly enough I find your line a bit scarier. To me it suggest that those who hold views outside of the mainstream must be insane for simply having them. If that's the case we are all descendants of the insane. |
I guess you neglected to read the part where he said:
"That's just one of the half dozen or so times when I've been exposed to those of the faithful telling me how I was pretty much a lost soul for not seeing life according to their views."
Trust me when I tell you that I do quite often have views that fall well outside the norm. The important thing is that I don't try to have strangers accept my views nor do I strive to have them change their lives to meet certain conditions that I might favour.... therein lies the difference.
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I'm not sure that's the point, Ray. I'm actually with Yanko on this one. Jeb has pretty much established an equivalence here when he says "these people ... can put up the appearance of sanity and lucidity" — he's essentially saying "if you believe in God and the Bible, you are neither sane nor rational", and that's a scary statement if you ask me. Wildly intolerant, on the surface of it.
R. |
...Not trying to be pedantic my friend, but his exact quote was "some of these people" and there is (at least in my mind) a quantum leap to be made between that and one that would include all people of faith.
Ray |
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12/12/2010 09:20:27 AM · #847 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
The thing that's really scary about some of these people is that they can put up the appearance of sanity and lucidity. |
Originally posted by yanko:
Oddly enough I find your line a bit scarier. To me it suggest that those who hold views outside of the mainstream must be insane for simply having them. If that's the case we are all descendants of the insane. |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
I guess you neglected to read the part where he said:
"That's just one of the half dozen or so times when I've been exposed to those of the faithful telling me how I was pretty much a lost soul for not seeing life according to their views."
Trust me when I tell you that I do quite often have views that fall well outside the norm. The important thing is that I don't try to have strangers accept my views nor do I strive to have them change their lives to meet certain conditions that I might favour.... therein lies the difference.
Ray |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I'm not sure that's the point, Ray. I'm actually with Yanko on this one. Jeb has pretty much established an equivalence here when he says "these people ... can put up the appearance of sanity and lucidity" — he's essentially saying "if you believe in God and the Bible, you are neither sane nor rational", and that's a scary statement if you ask me. Wildly intolerant, on the surface of it. |
No, Robert, that's certainly not what I'm saying. You guys want to extrapolate and go there, fine, but it's neither what I said or meant.
From the Repent America site:
RA'S OFFICIAL STATEMENT ON HURRICANE KATRINA 00/00/05
We are deeply grieved by the profound loss of life and suffering as a result of Hurricane Katrina. This storm was another reminder of how temporal our lives are here on this earth. While many are quick to dismiss God from Katrina’s destruction, we are not.
Although God is patient and longsuffering, He is also just. The Holy Bible teaches that this type of destruction is not inconsistent with God’s character. In fact, the Scripture is replete with examples of calamity that God used to bring His people to repentance, such as the Great Flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.
New Orleans was a city that had its doors wide open to the public celebration of sin, especially during events such as the annual “Mardi Gras” and homosexual “Southern Decadence” celebrations. These events attracted hundreds of thousands of sex-crazed, drunken revelers to the streets every year with a welcome from city officials and the permission of the local church.
The city of New Orleans, from its abortion industry to its voodoo practices, epitomized the pomp, proud, and hedonistic godlessness that has become the character of our nation. Biloxi and Gulfport, on the Mississippi coast, modeled their cities after much of New Orleans. The gambling casinos, associated with organized crime, prostitution, and exploitation, brought in hundreds of thousands of dollars each day for the state. For these reasons, we do not believe that Hurricane Katrina was a coincidence, whether it is seen as God’s divine judgment or by His allowance, we assert that God is still in control.
In the aftermath of this disaster, we must do as Jesus Christ commanded and “love thy neighbour,” and “weep with them that weep” as the Scripture teaches; however, we must not allow our warranted emotional response to such a disaster cause us to disregard God’s involvement, but drive us to the cross of Christ in repentance for our sins.
In this time of great devastation, we submit that all events are under the control of Providence, that no storm falls un-permitted from the threatening cloud, and that every drop has its order. May the results of Katrina’s devastation cause us all to think about what we tolerate in our city limits, and bring us trembling before the throne of Almighty God. We are not promised tomorrow; today is the day of salvation.
Even if this is really what the guy believes, what kind of compassionate Christian is he that basically says, "That'll teach you heathens!"? Somehow, I'd be willing to bet that an awful lot of people who would have been considered good and decent even by his narrow standards died as a result of Katrina. What's the deal with that? Oops? Too bad about the collateral damage? Doesn't seem like an example of Christian compassion to me.
No, I'm sorry, but extremists of any ilk will always fall into my definition of nuts, and this guy is defimitely an extremist. I have met Marcavage, talked to him extensively, and seen how he works. He's smart, amicable to talk to, educated, connected, and IMNSHO dangerous because he has a veneer of lucidity. He also assumed that because I was engaged as a Silent Witness at a gay pride festival that I was gay. Noyt that it matters, but he didn't ask, either.
He's one of the people that believes that homosexuality can be cured.
If he's sane, make sure you sign me up for the asylum. I want no parts of what he stands for on any level.
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12/12/2010 12:55:39 PM · #848 |
I'm curious as to which part of that post you consider representative of his insanity?
1. God is sovereign?
2. His list of sins?
3. His believe in the connection of the two?
I'm guessing #3. While I think it's always dangerous to claim to know the purpose of God's actions, he does couch it with some hedging which may be lost on you as it uses religious jargon (many people deeply entrenched in their field forget that not everybody shares their vocabulary. This guy may be guilty of that.)
Anyway, I'm not putting myself squarely in his camp, but you tend to speak in hyperboles which only demonize those who you don't agree with. |
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12/12/2010 01:22:46 PM · #849 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'm curious as to which part of that post you consider representative of his insanity?
1. God is sovereign?
2. His list of sins?
3. His believe in the connection of the two?
I'm guessing #3. While I think it's always dangerous to claim to know the purpose of God's actions, he does couch it with some hedging which may be lost on you as it uses religious jargon (many people deeply entrenched in their field forget that not everybody shares their vocabulary. This guy may be guilty of that.)
Anyway, I'm not putting myself squarely in his camp, but you tend to speak in hyperboles which only demonize those who you don't agree with. |
Hey, whatever.....I just object to his characterization of Katrina as divine punishmenmt as he would seem to not to take notice of the innocents lost.
I find that most objectionable. Again, I'd prefer it if you didn't try and slot me into your categories as that's your take on it, not mine.
BTW, you have that list with proof of it, written in His Hand? Yeah.....Back to.....
I don't think you're insane because of your beliefs, and never alluded to same, but do me a favor and don't read your beliefs into my statements as I decidedly don't agree with yours.
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12/12/2010 01:33:17 PM · #850 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'm curious as to which part of that post you consider representative of his insanity?
1. God is sovereign?
2. His list of sins?
3. His believe in the connection of the two?
I'm guessing #3. While I think it's always dangerous to claim to know the purpose of God's actions, he does couch it with some hedging which may be lost on you as it uses religious jargon (many people deeply entrenched in their field forget that not everybody shares their vocabulary. This guy may be guilty of that.)
Anyway, I'm not putting myself squarely in his camp, but you tend to speak in hyperboles which only demonize those who you don't agree with. |
Hey, whatever.....I just object to his characterization of Katrina as divine punishmenmt as he would seem to not to take notice of the innocents lost.
I find that most objectionable. Again, I'd prefer it if you didn't try and slot me into your categories as that's your take on it, not mine.
BTW, you have that list with proof of it, written in His Hand? Yeah.....Back to.....
I don't think you're insane because of your beliefs, and never alluded to same, but do me a favor and don't read your beliefs into my statements as I decidedly don't agree with yours. |
Don't worry abut it Jeb. Achoo has this incessant need to play Devil's Advocate for groups or individuals that follow a similar moral authority as he does. I don't even think he's aware he's doing it, most of the time. It's almost like an addiction, I think. |
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