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 04/23/2004 12:47:44 AM · #1
I posted a while ago about the problems I was having with my client about my first ever semi-professional shoot. I wanted to update those of you who were kind enough to give me advice on my situation and also share some of the photos I have uploaded here. Basically, the lady in charge of the play said she was going to call me back and that some of the students in the play had already placed orders. She never called me back so I waited a few days to call her. She seemed to not want to go through the trouble of collecting the money for me. I'm not sure what she expected me to do though since when I asked for contact numbers for the students she refused to give them to me. Finally, one of the students called me and she wanted me to email the files to her so she could see what they looked like. I sent her a large contact sheet file with all the images they could choose from. I set my prices at $3.00 for 4x5s $6.00 for 8x10 which I know is way too low. I just wanted to sell something from the shoot and I know these people don't have tons of money. Well, a week went by and I hadn't heard anything so I emailed the actress back. She wrote me a few questions about some images, asking if they could be cropped differently to fit more of certain people in the frame, which they couldn't, so I told her I was sorry but the photos were being sold as is because I am also a student and I am very busy in school. I received no reply to that email for another week so I sent a follow up. They no longer want any photos. I even offered to burn them a CD of all 80 full resolution files for $20.00 each as a final offer since I didn't have time to edit them further or get them printed out. This offer was also refused. The director, who hired me to come and never paid my meager $20.00 sitting fee is ignoring my calls. I have given up. At least it was a good experience. I learned not to do this again! I know my photos are worth at least 20 cents each.
 04/23/2004 01:01:58 AM · #2
I may have missed it but did you do a contract? Also, if this was a school production and it is the same school you go to and the director is a member of the faculty talk to her boss. If that doesn't work write an opinion/editorial of the school's paper about how the director screwed you out of money and time. And finally, if it is a community theater then write an op/ed to the local paper on how evil this lady is. You'll get your money from her then because of bad publicity and maybe more business from all of the people who feel like a student like you was taken advantage of. I think of worse ways to seek revenge but I think what I described is fairly civil. By the way, I really like the pictures and I don't think you were asking too much at all.
 04/23/2004 01:11:00 AM · #3
I think your photos are very good.
I think you were low-balling the price too much too.. but...
like jimmy said, did you have a contract?

In what way did you try to have her collect orders?
When I did a DVD slideshow set to music of the kindergarten play at my kids' school, I put a contact sheet with a sign up sheet and an envelope (big manilla type). The parents signed up with their name, address and phone #'s and put their money for their orders for prints and DVD's in the envelope. Of course, the teacher was eager, and helped by holding onto the envelope for a couple of days.

I sold each DVD for $8.50 (it was less than 15 minutes long), and had a structure for different sized prints. (I can't remember now what it was).

I would send an invoice/bill to the lady for the money. "Photography Services on ____ date", etc.
Put a due date on it.
Not sure I would go public with it just yet.

Not easy. That really sucks big time.

You are right, though, it is a learning experience. Always have a contract. For my clients (however few there are), I do not start shooting without the contract signed and the "sitting fee" payed.

04/23/2004 02:20:38 AM · #4
I should have known something was up from the beginning when the lady called me out of the blue because she had seen some of my photos and her normal photographer cancelled "at the last minute." I can perhaps guess why they cancelled now that I've had the pleasure of dealing with her.

She immediately acted as if she had the right to tell me how things were done just because the few other photographers she worked with in the past did things that way. She couldn't pay the sitting fee I requested because the school didn't give her money for the photographer it was just something nice she liked to do for the students in the play. She said the photographers usually sold about 15 to 20 photos. I figured as long as I got some money out of it that would be alright.

I did pretty much what you did. I printed up some very nice contact sheets with 9 photos per page and delivered them in a manilla envelope. Inside the manilla envelope I enclosed smaller envelopes for different students to leave their orders and their payment. After she claimed to have orders for me and I asked her when I could pick them up she said she didn't have the money because she didn't feel comfortable carrying students cash around. I told her they could write checks or money orders but that cash would be more convenient. I even offered to mail the final prints to each individual person if that would be easier for her.

She just seemed very unable and unwilling to deal with anything. She seemed unpleased with the photos because I made the mistake of telling her that they were digital which she naturally believes is inferior. I gave her 86 shots to choose from and she asked me if there were any more! I know the prices were too low but they were based on price sheets she showed me from photographers that she used in the past. Who knows, they could have been from years ago. I set the prices so low because the students don't have a lot of money and I'd rather sell them a bunch of photos so that I know my photos made it somewhere. They are really of no use to me sitting on my hard drive. That is the most frustrating part of this experience.

I'm not going to cause any kind of trouble in an attempt to get my money back. I don't need any bad press at school. I'll be requesting letters of recommendations from faculty members in the future. Luckily, she isn't one of them.

Do you have an example of your contract that you could send to me so that I can use one in the future?

Maybe I need an agent. :)

Now I know why I used to do graphic design with no photography involved at all. Clients can be a major pain in the ass but you never have to actually go out to shoot for an assignment. Plus, rejection and revisions suggested by the client seem much more personal to me when focused on my photography.

Message edited by author 2004-04-23 02:22:39.
 04/23/2004 05:02:11 AM · #5
That's terrible.
Your photos you posted are great, they look very professional to me, theatre photography is something I'm aiming to get into.
I refuse to believe that none of the people in the photos want to buy these shots, especially at those prices.
Keep persevering!

Bob
 04/23/2004 05:52:56 AM · #6
hi Jason

could be worth running an ad in a local paper/school newsletter to say that the pics are available....they're awesome photos and it would give the students and their families a chance to at least see them. You wouldn't even need to mention the director......just say the pics of the performance are ready for viewing.

good luck
sue
 04/23/2004 05:57:35 AM · #7
Fine images Jason and a shame how it all went.
I´ve no knowlidge about images prices but you should be aware of putting to low price tag on you pic´s because then people can get the feeling that they are cheep and not worth looking at.
 04/23/2004 08:48:39 AM · #8
I think the images look very good. The only minor crit I could offer is that sometimes, the artistic low DOF may not be what they wanted because then one of the actors (where there are two in the shot) would be less likely to want the shot.

I suggest that the best outcome of this, since it's not the money that would bother you, would be for you to approach this from a feedback point of view. Give up on selling them the photos for now. PERSIST on trying to talk to someone to find out what they didn't like about the photos. Acknowledge to them that you can see for some reason they are unhappy. But the key is to find out 'why' they were unhappy.

They may or may not be able to explain, but they owe you that. You might even find in pursuing this out of interest for finding out what went wrong, they may "cool down" and realize they actually do want the photos. It could simply be a personality thing.

But you will benefit more if you come across (genuinely) as trying to figure out what went wrong. There's nothing wrong either with admitting you are learning too--they may then see you more as a student and take a softer, more mentorly attitude.

Now I am not saying this is your fault, or your pictures fault, I am just giving you what I think is a good strategy to handle this.

04/23/2004 09:07:45 AM · #9
This kind of stuff sucks. You should have had a written agreement with her up front. NEVER do work professionally without some type of written contract in place. At the least, it should have specified a minimum compensation for your work. Once she balked at the initial fee, you could have negotiated an agreement where she would recoup that fee through a portion of the print sales.

At this point, I would send a bill to her for photographic services and copy her boss. You might also include a letter in the copy to her boss detailing your dilemma and her ill treatment of you. You will probably not likely get any money from this, but at least you will know that her superiors know about her behavior. You should write the letter to her boss in a professional manner, and in such a way that you expect a response. If you don't get a response, write one to her boss' boss and include the lack of response from her boss' boss and so on. At a certain point, I would include the chamber of commerce and BBB.

I would not expect to ever get a dime, but at the very least, you can use your experience to warn others away from doing business with her.

You might also place an ad in the paper advertising these as available to the students.


04/23/2004 09:14:33 AM · #10
Originally posted by suemack:
hi Jason

could be worth running an ad in a local paper/school newsletter to say that the pics are available....they're awesome photos and it would give the students and their families a chance to at least see them. You wouldn't even need to mention the director......just say the pics of the performance are ready for viewing.

good luck
sue


This is a good idea. If you do this, be sure to include the link to your website where they can be viewed.
 04/23/2004 09:33:12 AM · #11
Also, Jason, I wouldn't worry about people being upset with you at the school. You didn't cause this, she did. People will give you recommendations based on YOU not on HER.
That said, I wouldn't make the "grievance" public, but certainly there might be a way to make her boss know of her breech of contract - even a verbal one.

The contract I have been using includes:

I. Deposit: A non-refundable initial deposit of $40.00 is due at appointment confirmation. This deposit includes up to 1 hour of photo time, and post processing. Additional time may be discussed with the photographer as needed at an additional rate. $40.00 credit is applied to the purchase price of portraits.

II. Portrait Proofs are available for review by appointment, or on-line at (// . . . ) within 48 hours. Portrait delivery date and time is arranged at that time, and not to exceed 7 days.

III. Portraits are ordered by sheets for $15.00 per sheet. Order 6 sheets of any combination for only $70.00 (a $20.00 savings!). Sheets are available in the following:

A. 1 - 8X10
B. 2 - 5X7
C. 3 - 4X6
D. 8 - 2X3 (wallets)
E. 1 - 11X14

IV. Digital enhancements, such as vignettes, and borders are available for $5.00 additional per proof. Photo retouching is available for $10.00 additional per proof.

V. Additional Products:

16X20 wall portraits, Slide Shows (CD-Rom or DVD), Web Ready images on CD-Rom, Photo restoration.

VI. Information and Authorization:

Please fill out the information below and return to the photographer with the deposit to confirm your appointment.

A) Information:

Desired location for portraits: ___________________

Photo Use:

_Special Occasion
_Family
_Portfolio
_Business
_Website
_Other _____________________________

Special Requests/Comments: ______________________

B) Authorization:

1. I fully understand the contract as outlined above and authorize photographs to be taken. I also agree to allow Portrait Proofs to be posted on the photographer̢۪s website at (// .... ) for the express purpose of review by the customer, and understand that no personal information will be associated with the uploaded files.

Name: __________________________Address: _____________________________

Telephone: _______________________________

Signature: ________________________________ Date: ____________________

2. I agree to allow any portraits to be used in the photographer̢۪s portfolio (on the photographer̢۪s internet website, and hard copy). For security reasons, no personal information including name or location will be associated with the portfolio photographs.

Signature: ________________________________

of course, there are actual websites with photo contracts. This is something I made up. It works so far, but I will be looking for others to compare it with.

Message edited by author 2004-04-23 09:35:40.
 04/23/2004 09:52:16 AM · #12
Someone posted this site awhile back in the forums and I've used a few times since.

Photography Forms

Edit: Sorry to hear about your experiences. Please don't let this sour you on doing further work of this type - you did a great job! The photos look really good. I'd be really happy if I were one of those actors.


Message edited by author 2004-04-23 09:53:21.
 04/23/2004 09:52:56 AM · #13
Add me to the list of people who say you did a fine job with these shots -- they're very nice!

I used to DJ weddings, and every once in a while I'd run into someone who was just nuts and would find a way to screw me out of money, etc. It took a while for me to realize that I wasn't the one with the problem, they were. As I played for weddings over the years, I learned more and more how to protect myself from whackos.

Sounds like you're in the same boat. The problem isn't you... you're dealing with a whacko. Use the photos to showcase your talents to others -- it's not all for nothing. :)
 04/23/2004 12:04:57 PM · #14
It's unfortunate but realistic to expect this kind of thing to happen, once in a while. As others have said already, it is a damn good idea to come prepared for the worst. When the worst doesn't happen, it's heaven. ;-)

Another thing - the more artistic your endeavours, the greater your vulnerability as an artist. I think it's important to develop some degree of negative capability, so that you protect yourself not only legally but also psychologically against the inevitable abuse.

One way to do this, I believe, is to remind yourself that you are not a salesman or a grocer but a photographer.

Message edited by author 2004-04-23 12:05:24.
 04/23/2004 12:08:38 PM · #15
Just wanted to throw my two cents in that you really did a WONDERFUL job with those shots. They're beautiful. Sorry you had such a bummer experience. I'm surprised at the prices you offered that people didn't snap them up - but it sounds like horrible organization on the part of the group leader.

Keep up the good work and just use this as a learning experience.
04/23/2004 02:50:21 PM · #16
Originally posted by nshapiro:
I think the images look very good. The only minor crit I could offer is that sometimes, the artistic low DOF may not be what they wanted because then one of the actors (where there are two in the shot) would be less likely to want the shot.

I suggest that the best outcome of this, since it's not the money that would bother you, would be for you to approach this from a feedback point of view. Give up on selling them the photos for now. PERSIST on trying to talk to someone to find out what they didn't like about the photos. Acknowledge to them that you can see for some reason they are unhappy. But the key is to find out 'why' they were unhappy.

They may or may not be able to explain, but they owe you that. You might even find in pursuing this out of interest for finding out what went wrong, they may "cool down" and realize they actually do want the photos. It could simply be a personality thing.

But you will benefit more if you come across (genuinely) as trying to figure out what went wrong. There's nothing wrong either with admitting you are learning too--they may then see you more as a student and take a softer, more mentorly attitude.

Now I am not saying this is your fault, or your pictures fault, I am just giving you what I think is a good strategy to handle this.


Thanks. I think that is good advice. I think I will contact the students and ask them what was wrong with the pictures so that I can improve my photography in the future. Of course, they all told me the photos were great. I'm getting the feeling that they just don't want the memories of the occasion documented because their teacher/director was so horrid to work with. Thanks just my guess.

The reason the shots have a shallow depth of field is that I had no other option. The set was really dark and I was only given the opportunity to shoot during the dress rehearsal of the play so I couldn't tell them to stop and hold a pose.

I would like to use some of the images in my portfolio. Do I need to get written permission from the "models" for that?
 04/23/2004 03:33:08 PM · #17
Even if you didn't get paid you were still hired to shoot and as such I don't think you need any additional releases just to use them in your portfolio.
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