| Author | Thread |
|
|
12/09/2008 12:47:09 AM · #151 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
would you be so kind as to respond to my last post asking if it was equivalent to "There is only our natural world". |
That's not what your last post asked. You asked if everything was physical/material, and I'm not sure the universe falls neatly into that description (not everything has mass), however I DO think that everything has a natural cause or explanation. Even though we might not (or may never) know what a particular explanation is, I don't think the absence of knowledge requires supernatural magic and miracles as a substitute.
Regarding your other question... I believe many things, but as Bear suggested, belief IN something holds a different connotation. I can believe in something like a person's abilities, but I'm not likely to believe in something that defies my understanding of basic physics. If you want a more specific answer, you'll have to ask a specific question. |
|
|
|
12/09/2008 01:14:03 AM · #152 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
would you be so kind as to respond to my last post asking if it was equivalent to "There is only our natural world". |
That's not what your last post asked. You asked if everything was physical/material, and I'm not sure the universe falls neatly into that description (not everything has mass), however I DO think that everything has a natural cause or explanation. Even though we might not (or may never) know what a particular explanation is, I don't think the absence of knowledge requires supernatural magic and miracles as a substitute.
Regarding your other question... I believe many things, but as Bear suggested, belief IN something holds a different connotation. I can believe in something like a person's abilities, but I'm not likely to believe in something that defies my understanding of basic physics. If you want a more specific answer, you'll have to ask a specific question. |
No this is a fine explanation. Perhaps my view of epistemology is a bit less certain than Bear's. I'm not dealing in semantics, but I generally feel it's difficult to KNOW something for certain. There are core assumptions that are made and that constitutes belief. Now of course some things are more knowable than others, but I digress.
I'll remind Mousie that I wasn't the one who brought all this up. I brought up the aggressive atheist and the Washington Capitol. Somebody else, let me see, it was Louis at 12:16AM on the 8th, brought it up. Interestingly he did it right after his own post where he said, "I don't consider the atheist message dogmatic, It expresses, strongly, a rational position..." Then we were off from there. I already knew Shannon felt this way so it was only a matter of time before he waded in.
Then, as these threads are apt to do, we all got our panties in a wad...
Message edited by author 2008-12-09 01:15:55. |
|
|
|
12/09/2008 01:32:50 AM · #153 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Perhaps my view of epistemology is a bit less certain than Bear's. I'm not dealing in semantics, but I generally feel it's difficult to KNOW something for certain. There are core assumptions that are made and that constitutes belief. Now of course some things are more knowable than others, but I digress. |
Doc, be a mensch and concede a point instead of dancing around it, OK? It doesn't require some dramatic grasp of "epistemology" to acknowledge that to a lot of us "belief in" is a whole other order of meaning than "belief that". Can't you concede that?
R.
|
|
|
|
12/09/2008 02:32:18 AM · #154 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
I believe atheism isn't a belief system. |
I tend to believe that you're right. |
|
|
|
12/09/2008 06:46:40 AM · #155 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
As far as Jeb, I'd be interested to see if you have the chutzpah to stand up and state what YOU believe in. It's easy to participate on these threads and tear down someone else's system. Do you think your own can stand the scrutiny? |
One of the things I believe in is my inalienable right to have my religion be a personal thing and that as a human, and one of God's children, that I not have to justify it, and/or defend it, to you or anyone else.
So I specifically don't feel in any way, shape, or form obligated to do so to you.
If you are genuinely interested in knowing what I hold to be truth, and what gives me comfort, solace, and guidance, then I have an answer as to what I believe.
I believe in God. I believe that the human race was allowed to come into existence because of his machinations, and I believe that we are supposed to be inherently good.
I believe that we are a part of a bigger picture; I don't waste a lot of time trying to figure it all out.
I think people of all races and cultures spend too much time trying to figure out specifics and conforming to archaic rules created by other people.....and failing miserably at it.
I believe that God wants me to live my life in a particular manner, and I try on a daily basis to be the best person that I can be based on what my perception of what God wants.
I feel religion, faith, and belief is a very personal thing, to be established between each person, and their inner self. And that no other person should ever interfere with that. That, to me, is the most basic human right.
From there, it's pretty much empirical. I try to be that person based on what my perception of good is based on human behavior down through the thousands of years of recorded history, and the belief structure that I've formulated based on striving to be the right kind of person, trying to treat others by a set of tenets that allow them their rights, and to respect them, and to also act towards them in such a manner as to demonstrate that I care about them, and that I am also curious as to what it is that they hold to be important.
I have this incredibly strong desire to want to stand up for, and by, each and every person I stand next to that I feel is being harassed or belittled for their beliefs, and sometimes that means just standing there and saying nothing, but not moving away, either. Sometimes just being there in support of the person next to me withjout being vocal or active about it is enough. I do strongly believe in personal rights that transcend organized social dictates. I know that we have to live amongst each other, but society should never tell us how to have our faith.....and all too often they do.
I know I'm rambling, but an awful lot of what I believe, fell, and have as my faith isn't something I can put into a short, easy, clever paragraph. It's constantly evolving as I discover more about these people I walk through life with, as I experience growth and knowledge within myself, and believe it or not, I've learned as much about myself through these silly threads as I have about you all.
One thing that I feel great relief about is that I have an incredible level of respect and acceptance fo others' beliefs, a desire for them to have the comfort and solace in their beliefs as I do in mine.
The contentment I have in my faith having finally come to the place in my life where I know after so many years of searching that I had it all along; when I quit trying to understand it as it was supposed to be according to every Tom, Dick, and Harry who came down the pike with their set of rules; I found peace.
|
|
|
|
12/09/2008 09:34:18 AM · #156 |
Originally posted by Jac:
I find it really odd that some people say they wouldn't know what to do without their god's guidance. That scares the crap out of me. |
What if, hypothetically speaking, it could be proven (to whatever degree of satisfation required) that God/Allah/FSM don't exist -- would all believers suddenly run amok like crazed lions, or continue to live pretty much according to the Ten Commandments, despite the lack of incentive provided by Heaven or Hell? |
|
|
|
12/09/2008 09:50:57 AM · #157 |
You know what, both sides of the conversation bore the hell out of me now. Am I at a point where I don't give a damn anymore? Maybe so, maybe not....probably not... Everyone keeps repeating the same thing with different words, including myself, I've become what I hate but will try to overcome that.
Pray to your gods and believe what you want, look with your eyes and see what you will, read your old testaments and interpret them as you see fit. Just don't do it in my face, keep it in your home, in private. Your little world will be the perfect world described in your book and us evil doers will go to hell for eternity. Just as your god has mandated it in your book of rules.
ooo look, marbles....
|
|
|
|
12/09/2008 09:53:56 AM · #158 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Jac:
I find it really odd that some people say they wouldn't know what to do without their god's guidance. That scares the crap out of me. |
What if, hypothetically speaking, it could be proven (to whatever degree of satisfation required) that God/Allah/FSM don't exist -- would all believers suddenly run amok like crazed lions, or continue to live pretty much according to the Ten Commandments, despite the lack of incentive provided by Heaven or Hell? |
According to some of my religionist friends, they would take care of some unfinished business knowing they wouldn't have to answer to their god anymore. That scared the hell out of me and I never again spoke about religion to these people.
Good day everyone, I'm off to learn new things. |
|
|
|
12/09/2008 10:02:31 AM · #159 |
Originally posted by Jac:
You know what, both sides of the conversation bore the hell out of me now. Am I at a point where I don't give a damn anymore? Maybe so, maybe not....probably not... Everyone keeps repeating the same thing with different words, including myself, I've become what I hate but will try to overcome that.
Pray to your gods and believe what you want, look with your eyes and see what you will, read your old testaments and interpret them as you see fit. Just don't do it in my face, keep it in your home, in private. Your little world will be the perfect world described in your book and us evil doers will go to hell for eternity. Just as your god has mandated it in your book of rules.
ooo look, marbles.... |
Hey! I like marbles too... |
|
|
|
12/09/2008 10:50:26 AM · #160 |
Originally posted by Jac:
According to some of my religionist friends, they would take care of some unfinished business knowing they wouldn't have to answer to their god anymore. That scared the hell out of me and I never again spoke about religion to these people. |
That's what scares me, too....
|
|
|
|
12/09/2008 11:05:40 AM · #161 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
As far as Jeb, I'd be interested to see if you have the chutzpah to stand up and state what YOU believe in. |
One thing I thought of that I'd like to add since the discussion went down the path of it.......
I don't have any opinion one way or another as far as a belief of an afterlife.
I think it muddies what we're supposed to be doing here.
If there isn't, then if we've done the best we can, then that stands on its own merits.
If we live the best we can while we're here, then that will be reflected if there is a judgement day, as I see it.
Either way, because that's what makes sense to me, I have managed to dismiss it as a pertinent issue because I need to be the best person I can in this life, be it all there is, or whatever....it was an unusual, yet gratifying thing to be able to be accepting of that.
So that means I have no belief system on that, doesn't it?.....8>)
|
|
|
|
12/09/2008 11:29:56 AM · #162 |
Originally posted by Mousie belief system:
History shows that the applied irrationality of man has caused and will cause much of the suffering on this planet. It is a moral imperative to learn from and correct these mistakes |
Then the real question is. What is a moral imperative? I would say that is what religion is, your moral compass.
Digression: Some people's compasses are pointed to true north while some are pointed to magnetic north. Some are going to the south pole and some don't believe in compasses. Some put a stick in the mud and look at the sun's shadow. |
|
|
|
12/09/2008 11:51:27 AM · #163 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
I would say that is what religion is, your moral compass. |
The simple fact that people of all cultures, religions, and even NO religion can exhibit moral behavior demonstrates the falsehood of that assumption. |
|
|
|
12/09/2008 11:56:28 AM · #164 |
Generally, I think religion keeps people from living their lives fully. Religion holds out the promise that there is life beyond this one if you obey these rules, rather than jump in and experience life, people hold themselves back, either out of fear that what they would otherwise do may violate the rules and somehow forfeit their chance at salvation or by becoming complacent of their status quo existence, holding out hope that it will be better in the next life.
To me, that's one of the biggest "moral wrongs" that religion commits every damn day.
Message edited by author 2008-12-09 11:57:50. |
|
|
|
12/09/2008 11:58:23 AM · #165 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Generally, I think religion keeps people from living their lives fully. Religion holds out the promise that there is life beyond this one if you obey these rules, rather than jump in and experience life, people hold themselves back, either out of fear that what they would otherwise do may violate the rules and somehow forfeit their chance at salvation or by becoming complacent of their status quo existence, holding out hope that it will be better in the next life.
To me, that's one of the biggest "moral wrongs" that religion commits every damn day. |
Is that your belief framework?.......8>)
|
|
|
|
12/09/2008 02:24:34 PM · #166 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
If there isn't, then if we've done the best we can, then that stands on its own merits.
If we live the best we can while we're here, then that will be reflected if there is a judgement day, as I see it. |
That's a gutsy call. Have you lived the "best you can"? I'm pretty sure I've failed at my own moral code and I've done it often. My guess is either you don't really think there is going to be an afterlife, or you aren't really reflecting on the ramification of what you just said. I don't hold it against you though; I think there are tons of people out there who feel they live a "good life" but fail to ask just "how good" one needs to be in order to reap any reward in the afterlife. The bar, in their minds, gets set just below their feet.
If I believed a principle like that, honestly, I'd be living my life with fear and trembling. Eternity is a long, long time. |
|
|
|
12/09/2008 02:36:19 PM · #167 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Perhaps my view of epistemology is a bit less certain than Bear's. I'm not dealing in semantics, but I generally feel it's difficult to KNOW something for certain. There are core assumptions that are made and that constitutes belief. Now of course some things are more knowable than others, but I digress. |
Doc, be a mensch and concede a point instead of dancing around it, OK? It doesn't require some dramatic grasp of "epistemology" to acknowledge that to a lot of us "belief in" is a whole other order of meaning than "belief that". Can't you concede that?
R. |
Not to be obtuse, because I really don't quite get you, would "There is only the physical world" be a "belief in" or a "belief that" and would "God exists" be a "belief in" or a "belief that" and if they are different, why? |
|
|
|
12/09/2008 03:03:35 PM · #168 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
If there isn't, then if we've done the best we can, then that stands on its own merits.
If we live the best we can while we're here, then that will be reflected if there is a judgement day, as I see it. |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
That's a gutsy call. Have you lived the "best you can"? I'm pretty sure I've failed at my own moral code and I've done it often. My guess is either you don't really think there is going to be an afterlife, or you aren't really reflecting on the ramification of what you just said. I don't hold it against you though; I think there are tons of people out there who feel they live a "good life" but fail to ask just "how good" one needs to be in order to reap any reward in the afterlife. The bar, in their minds, gets set just below their feet.
If I believed a principle like that, honestly, I'd be living my life with fear and trembling. Eternity is a long, long time. |
Have I lived the best I could?
Absolutely not!
Will I fall short between now and when I die?
Most likely, and with alacrity.
But even if I knew "how good" is that a guarantee that I'd be able to live that well?
Absolutely not!
I also think that living life in such a manner that I'm only doing what I should be out of either fear or reward is cheap at best and really sad at worst.
I want to be the best I can for here and now, to be decent as I can for the validation of the kind of man I am in this life, not for what may be.
I've made some really bad choices and mistakes in my life......some I'm really not proud of. Am I going to live in fear of judgement? No. Am I not going to be true to my beliefs here on the chance that there's more. No.
If the only reason that you're trying to live right is for the reward, then by my understanding, you've got a damn sight more to answer for than I when Judgement Day comes......8>)
Message edited by author 2008-12-09 15:42:14.
|
|
|
|
12/09/2008 03:33:21 PM · #169 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Have I lived the best I could?
Absolutely not!
Will I fall short between now and when I die?
Most likely, and with alacrity.
But even if I knew "how good" is that a guarantee that I'd be able to live that well?
Absiolutely not! |
So to be clear, you are doomed under your own belief?
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
If the only reason that you're trying to live right is for the reward, then by my understanding, you've got a damn sight more to answer for than I when Judgement Day comes......8>) |
Don't put words in my mouth now, my salvation has nothing to do with how well I behave. That's the difference between us and why I think your view is "gutsy" because by your own admission you aren't living up to it. But you don't seem to follow your belief to it's logical conclusion, instead you just said acting good out of a hope for a reward is lame. I agree, but it doesn't let you off your own hook. |
|
|
|
12/09/2008 03:40:47 PM · #170 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Have I lived the best I could?
Absolutely not!
Will I fall short between now and when I die?
Most likely, and with alacrity.
But even if I knew "how good" is that a guarantee that I'd be able to live that well?
Absiolutely not! |
So to be clear, you are doomed under your own belief?
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
If the only reason that you're trying to live right is for the reward, then by my understanding, you've got a damn sight more to answer for than I when Judgement Day comes......8>) |
Don't put words in my mouth now, my salvation has nothing to do with how well I behave. That's the difference between us and why I think your view is "gutsy" because by your own admission you aren't living up to it. But you don't seem to follow your belief to it's logical conclusion, instead you just said acting good out of a hope for a reward is lame. I agree, but it doesn't let you off your own hook. |
What do you mean by doomed? Doomed to what? Die? We're all going to die and become just so much worm food when we do. You get one ride. That's it. No re-do's, no salvation, no eternal reward or damnation in Hellfire. Make the most of it while you're here. |
|
|
|
12/09/2008 03:40:58 PM · #171 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Have I lived the best I could?
Absolutely not!
Will I fall short between now and when I die?
Most likely, and with alacrity.
But even if I knew "how good" is that a guarantee that I'd be able to live that well?
Absolutely not! |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
So to be clear, you are doomed under your own belief? |
Huh???
What belief? I stated posts ago that I have NO belief one way or the other about an afterlife because I believe that it's fallacious to live as if there is or isn't.
In my belief system, you should live to the best of your ability NOW, and tomorrow, of course.
What's with the doomed???? To what or by whom?
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
If the only reason that you're trying to live right is for the reward, then by my understanding, you've got a damn sight more to answer for than I when Judgement Day comes......8>) |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Don't put words in my mouth now, my salvation has nothing to do with how well I behave. That's the difference between us and why I think your view is "gutsy" because by your own admission you aren't living up to it. But you don't seem to follow your belief to it's logical conclusion, instead you just said acting good out of a hope for a reward is lame. I agree, but it doesn't let you off your own hook. |
What do you mean the difference?
You have given me the idea that you are living for the reward.....I am decidedly NOT!
You're losing me here with what you apparently think I'm saying.
Where do you get it that I've said anything but I don't have any belief, or thoughts, about an afterlife?
I specifically stated that I don't go there at all.
Message edited by author 2008-12-09 15:42:38.
|
|
|
|
12/09/2008 03:49:38 PM · #172 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Perhaps my view of epistemology is a bit less certain than Bear's. I'm not dealing in semantics, but I generally feel it's difficult to KNOW something for certain. There are core assumptions that are made and that constitutes belief. Now of course some things are more knowable than others, but I digress. |
Doc, be a mensch and concede a point instead of dancing around it, OK? It doesn't require some dramatic grasp of "epistemology" to acknowledge that to a lot of us "belief in" is a whole other order of meaning than "belief that". Can't you concede that?
R. |
Not to be obtuse, because I really don't quite get you, would "There is only the physical world" be a "belief in" or a "belief that" and would "God exists" be a "belief in" or a "belief that" and if they are different, why? |
No, they are equivalencies; both statements are "belief that." "Belief in" comes into play when you identify a God, buy into His religion, adopt His codes as your codes, and so forth. Does that clarify things?
Here's a very specific "belief in" for you:
"I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic Church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting.
AMEN."
R.
Message edited by author 2008-12-09 15:50:16.
|
|
|
|
12/09/2008 03:53:40 PM · #173 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Nullix:
I would say that is what religion is, your moral compass. |
The simple fact that people of all cultures, religions, and even NO religion can exhibit moral behavior demonstrates the falsehood of that assumption. |
That must be my ignorance. What would else would you base as your moral behavior than on something you believe in?
Moral:
"...the distinction between right and wrong..."
How would you know what was right or wrong if you didn't have some sort of belief system? |
|
|
|
12/09/2008 03:58:49 PM · #174 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Huh???
What belief? I stated posts ago that I have NO belief one way or the other about an afterlife because I believe that it's fallacious to live as if there is or isn't.
|
I guess I was going off your line "If we live the best we can while we're here, then that will be reflected if there is a judgement day, as I see it." Perhaps I did not read enough into the "IF" and should just understand you as thinking there is no afterlife. |
|
|
|
12/09/2008 03:59:38 PM · #175 |
Along a similar theme, would you find the current winning Masters Free Study entry sacrilegious, as some of the comments appear to indicate?
Does the motivations of the creator of the image matter in if the image would be considered offensive or not? |
|
