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12/01/2008 07:17:19 PM · #1 |
If you know this, there are no new subjects to take photo of; there are creative ways to take photos of old subjects and that what makes a photographer stand out, how they look at things.
I would like to take your attention to this and ask you to judge photos not thinking "oh no, bird again" or "not another red flower"
. Try to see its composition and quality, colors... just because you probably closing your mind with similar photos, you also, maybe, missing a lot from the same photo.
Slow down clicking numbers, please take a look at the photos, specially the masters and free study photos (FS each month, because there are wonderful photos sometimes getting hammered... don't ask samples, just check the old challenges please)
PS: Yes, I also rant this out because I think I am also getting hammered for the same reason, but one of you did realize what was different and point out. Thank you. |
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12/01/2008 09:33:46 PM · #2 |
I'm with you, except that I'm finally starting to get to a point where I'll post up something for a challenge, and then let it go.
It is what it is.
My Masters' entry isn't even hitting my 5.39 all over average.
I don't care. Not even a little.
It's a beautiful image that I took carefully, edited lovingly, and it makes me go "WOW!" every time I look at it.
So if the general concensus is that it's not eye candy, so be it.
I'm really bowled over by the majority of work in that challenge, and the challenges that I've been voting lately seem to have better work in them than I'm used to seeing.
After two and a half years, I think I see images much more intelligently and skillfully.
Funny thing.......as I've spent more time viewing, voting, and commenting, I've noticed my average vote has been going up.
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12/01/2008 11:48:44 PM · #3 |
I have to agree with you and disagree with you all at the same time. I am sick of the same images with the same compositions over and over again. How many more creative ways are there to shoot paper edges? I'd imagine none. I don't care that you can copy and reproduce someone else's idea in great quality. It is still the same image over and over again. There are different ways to compose and present common subjects, but I rarely see this. Its always the same thing time and again. Flowers, glass refraction, water drops, your damn cats, THE AURORA BOREALIS...and the list goes on and on. It was a real relief to see original images hitting the front page this week. I just can't bring myself to give high marks to unoriginal images no matter how well they are done. A copy is a copy. You might as well copy the image from the website and present it as your own. Simple my opinion...
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12/02/2008 12:20:58 AM · #4 |
 ericwoo, you have a point there. Although some of those same shots are getting the first page over and over again, just because they are the way DPC likes them... eye-candy style. Sharp, clean, colorful.
Unfortunately some of us stuck with similar materials and honestly, since they are good materials which people could milk until they're dry, why not? They all are getting good scores, so keep on doing it. I would still give good scores to paper shots, or droplets or auroras... if you can catch the same view and process the same image, go ahead and do it... or if you have a very nice waterfall, so be it, go ahead and take its photos, 200 of them different time, different angles. If you can get it right, people should be giving you good points each time.. "should" give you good points. and trust me on this, if you find any gold mind like one of those photos, you will be very proud every time.
Sometimes it's scary to ask people to be more creative, trust me, when some people lack ideas, they come up with very nasty stuff. |
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12/02/2008 12:31:50 AM · #5 |
Originally posted by FocusPoint:
Sometimes it's scary to ask people to be more creative, trust me, when some people lack ideas, they come up with very nasty stuff. |
Direct me to this nasty stuff of which you speak. It's got to be better than seeing the 10th photo copy of something that wasn't great to begin with. |
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12/02/2008 05:57:23 AM · #6 |
Originally posted by ericwoo:
I have to agree with you and disagree with you all at the same time. I am sick of the same images with the same compositions over and over again. How many more creative ways are there to shoot paper edges? I'd imagine none. I don't care that you can copy and reproduce someone else's idea in great quality. It is still the same image over and over again. There are different ways to compose and present common subjects, but I rarely see this. Its always the same thing time and again. Flowers, glass refraction, water drops, your damn cats, THE AURORA BOREALIS...and the list goes on and on. It was a real relief to see original images hitting the front page this week. I just can't bring myself to give high marks to unoriginal images no matter how well they are done. A copy is a copy. You might as well copy the image from the website and present it as your own. Simple my opinion... |
Ya know......and I'm just wondering based on a couple similar posts...
Why do you hang here?
You really don't seem to like much of anything here.
And not to point out anything obvious, but speaking of same old, same old.....you have two identical, or virtually identical images on your profile page.
Where's the originality there?
Practice what you preach, fellow!
Have you any constructive suggestions, or words of wisdom for those of us who are looking for inspiration?
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12/02/2008 06:32:39 AM · #7 |
Originally posted by ericwoo:
I just can't bring myself to give high marks to unoriginal images no matter how well they are done. A copy is a copy. You might as well copy the image from the website and present it as your own. Simple my opinion... |
Having taught music for many years I may have a sense of what you folks are ranting about, but please keep things in perspective: THIS IS A LEARNING SITE! If your only idea of learning is that the photographer's ideas must be all original then this would never work as a learning site since anyone wishing to achieve mastery of an art must first imitate the mastery of others.
I came here with no photo experience just over a year ago with little experience in photography. I still don't know much and I'm continually trying new techniques to expand my palette of skills. Well, perhaps all the people who some of you folks learned from were all jerks about your lack of creativity as you mastered THEIR techniques (in probably not that original a fashion).
And I'm not saying you should score the "same old well done photo" as high as something more original, but at least give some credit to those of us who are learning the basics that there IS a difference between doing the basics well and doing them poorly on a technical level. More people getting the basics down will ultimately lead to more people who are not satisfied with just their technical expertise and can create sublime works of originality. Again, this is a learning site at its core. |
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12/02/2008 08:14:06 AM · #8 |
Originally posted by FocusPoint:
I would like to take your attention to this and ask you to judge photos not thinking "oh no, bird again" or "not another red flower"
. Try to see its composition and quality, colors... just because you probably closing your mind with similar photos, you also, maybe, missing a lot from the same photo. |
Will do, but if the composition is also the same, if it has the same quality and the same colors, then it's still boring. I have a big problem with boring.
As to the "learning site" argument, if boring photos get high scores, then people learn to take boring photos. Admittedly, one can learn important skills here, but there are other things to learn as well. |
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12/02/2008 08:19:30 AM · #9 |
NVM
Message edited by author 2008-12-02 08:22:53. |
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12/02/2008 08:31:43 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by FocusPoint:
I would like to take your attention to this and ask you to judge photos not thinking "oh no, bird again" or "not another red flower"
. Try to see its composition and quality, colors... just because you probably closing your mind with similar photos, you also, maybe, missing a lot from the same photo. |
Will do, but if the composition is also the same, if it has the same quality and the same colors, then it's still boring. I have a big problem with boring.
As to the "learning site" argument, if boring photos get high scores, then people learn to take boring photos. Admittedly, one can learn important skills here, but there are other things to learn as well. |
Is there a book of rules somewhere I can read so we too can know the rules as you do posthumous? We would all like to know the rules so please, give us the title of that book so everyone can produce a work of art on their first try and not waste people's time with their darn experimentation and photographing things NOT in the book.
You seem to have an inside scoop on how we should take photographs and I just want to get my hands on that book so you don't have to repeat the same rules all the time. :)
Pretty please? :) |
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12/02/2008 08:53:55 AM · #11 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
As to the "learning site" argument, if boring photos get high scores, then people learn to take boring photos. Admittedly, one can learn important skills here, but there are other things to learn as well. |
Okay.....
Can you learn style & taste? Talent? Aesthetic discernment?
I'm a reasonably decent photographer, I have "an eye" to a certain extent, but I'm not enormously inspired or creative.
I'm unlikely to ever add a Posthumous Ribbon to my collection of awards.
After all, I was the very first Boring Mediocre Chamion".
I doubt something that makes an instinctually good photographer good is something that you can either learn or develop with practice.
Composition, lighting, the ability to see what belongs in the frame and what doesn't......yes, these are all things that are learnable, and that I'm way better at than I was when I got here, but what makes the photogs that you like the best, and have the most admiration for, cannnot be learned, IMO.
And I don't think that's the intent of the site anyway. The site *IS* DP Challenge, so I'm assuming that it's all about the challenges, and what it is that you do to "get there".
So, it kind of stands to reason that those "Same old boring, ribbon-winning formulas" are kind of the objective in the first place.
That's why I came here, it's what I've worked very hard for with varying degrees of success, and what I'm evolving away from as I try to develop my own style and techniques for myself since I'm finally discovering the photographer that I am.
It's kind of a self-defeating process for the site it seems, as far as retaining people for the long haul, but by the same token, I'd venture to say that DPC has launched some decent photographers out into the big, bad world who may not have made it as quickly, or at all, without what they got here.
I know that's true in my case.
I actually am getting a feel for what it is that I do with the camera.
And to do that, I've had to run the treadmill to get the basic training before I could strike out on my own at all.
YMMV.......8>)
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12/02/2008 09:04:17 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by Jac:
Is there a book of rules somewhere I can read so we too can know the rules as you do posthumous? We would all like to know the rules so please, give us the title of that book so everyone can produce a work of art on their first try and not waste people's time with their darn experimentation and photographing things NOT in the book.
You seem to have an inside scoop on how we should take photographs and I just want to get my hands on that book so you don't have to repeat the same rules all the time. :)
Pretty please? :) |
You don't have a copy? Sold at all good booksellers, in their 'photography' section. Course it is spread across quite a few volumes. |
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12/02/2008 09:05:59 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by posthumous:
As to the "learning site" argument, if boring photos get high scores, then people learn to take boring photos. Admittedly, one can learn important skills here, but there are other things to learn as well. |
Okay.....
Can you learn style & taste? Talent? Aesthetic discernment?
I'm a reasonably decent photographer, I have "an eye" to a certain extent, but I'm not enormously inspired or creative.
I'm unlikely to ever add a Posthumous Ribbon to my collection of awards.
After all, I was the very first Boring Mediocre Chamion".
I doubt something that makes an instinctually good photographer good is something that you can either learn or develop with practice.
Composition, lighting, the ability to see what belongs in the frame and what doesn't......yes, these are all things that are learnable, and that I'm way better at than I was when I got here, but what makes the photogs that you like the best, and have the most admiration for, cannnot be learned, IMO. |
I almost completely disagree with every statement in your post. Mostly I think I disagree with you limiting your potential like this. |
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12/02/2008 09:33:54 AM · #14 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
As to the "learning site" argument, if boring photos get high scores, then people learn to take boring photos. Admittedly, one can learn important skills here, but there are other things to learn as well. |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Okay.....
Can you learn style & taste? Talent? Aesthetic discernment?
I'm a reasonably decent photographer, I have "an eye" to a certain extent, but I'm not enormously inspired or creative.
I'm unlikely to ever add a Posthumous Ribbon to my collection of awards.
After all, I was the very first Boring Mediocre Chamion".
I doubt something that makes an instinctually good photographer good is something that you can either learn or develop with practice.
Composition, lighting, the ability to see what belongs in the frame and what doesn't......yes, these are all things that are learnable, and that I'm way better at than I was when I got here, but what makes the photogs that you like the best, and have the most admiration for, cannnot be learned, IMO. |
Originally posted by Gordon:
I almost completely disagree with every statement in your post. Mostly I think I disagree with you limiting your potential like this. |
Well, you're welcome to your view, but if I haven't learned anything else over the years, it's to recognize and be accepting of limitations, and work on developing the skills that I do have or demonstrate an aptitude for.....
I cannot play the piano, but I can make music from an engine with a skill developed from a natural sense and feel that not too many have......I can't sink a basket to save my life, but you'll be hard pressed to find a skier with more grace in motion...
It doesn't bother me in the slightest that I could never do a droplet image like Irene, and maybe I could, but I'd rather just delight in viewing hers....or that I just don't think of the crazy things that Timfythetoo, and Shannon come up with......I'm okay with that, and truth be told, I'm not sure I'd want my brain to be any weirder than it already is......8>)
What I *DO* want is to continue to train myself to "see" the flaws in my composition when I'm looking through the viewfinder, and to notice more when light is optimal, or to be able to sense that something I think I want to capture has a boatload of obstacles to overcome. Too often I fuigure that out when I screen up the images to edit them.
But I am getting better at it, and I also do have the ability to see much of what is problematic so much more than before.
So don't think of my attitude so much limited as realistic. I'm an optimistic and hopeful enthusiast, but I like to think I live in the real world to an extent, too.
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12/02/2008 09:38:36 AM · #15 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
It doesn't bother me in the slightest that I could never do a droplet image like Irene, and maybe I could, but I'd rather just delight in viewing hers....or that I just don't think of the crazy things that Timfythetoo, and Shannon come up with......I'm okay with that, and truth be told, I'm not sure I'd want my brain to be any weirder than it already is......8>)
What I *DO* want is to continue to train myself to "see" the flaws in my composition when I'm looking through the viewfinder, and to notice more when light is optimal, or to be able to sense that something I think I want to capture has a boatload of obstacles to overcome. Too often I fuigure that out when I screen up the images to edit them.
But I am getting better at it, and I also do have the ability to see much of what is problematic so much more than before.
So don't think of my attitude so much limited as realistic. I'm an optimistic and hopeful enthusiast, but I like to think I live in the real world to an extent, too. |
It is up to you certainly. But I've trained people to win Posthumous blues in the past. It doesn't take very long. The fact that now they won't stop winning them is entirely the result of their own talents and efforts. (slightly tongue in cheek but really it is a learnable skill, if you want it)
Message edited by author 2008-12-02 09:39:45. |
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12/02/2008 10:01:25 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
It is up to you certainly. But I've trained people to win Posthumous blues in the past. It doesn't take very long. The fact that now they won't stop winning them is entirely the result of their own talents and efforts. (slightly tongue in cheek but really it is a learnable skill, if you want it) |
Now I'm intrigued.....
Honestly, I don't get most of them, and a lot I don't even like.
I'm kind of OCD/anal retentive and they mess with my sense of aesthetics.
I eat M&Ms by color and organize my trash......8>)
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12/02/2008 10:37:42 AM · #17 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Gordon:
It is up to you certainly. But I've trained people to win Posthumous blues in the past. It doesn't take very long. The fact that now they won't stop winning them is entirely the result of their own talents and efforts. (slightly tongue in cheek but really it is a learnable skill, if you want it) |
Now I'm intrigued.....
Honestly, I don't get most of them, and a lot I don't even like.
I'm kind of OCD/anal retentive and they mess with my sense of aesthetics.
I eat M&Ms by color and organize my trash......8>) |
 Yea riigghhtt ;p
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12/02/2008 10:40:38 AM · #18 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I eat M&Ms by color |
That is completely, totally, and inexplicably normal.
Trust me on this one.
:P |
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12/02/2008 11:30:20 AM · #19 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Composition, lighting, the ability to see what belongs in the frame and what doesn't......yes, these are all things that are learnable, and that I'm way better at than I was when I got here, but what makes the photogs that you like the best, and have the most admiration for, cannnot be learned, IMO.
.............
I try to develop my own style and techniques for myself since I'm finally discovering the photographer that I am.
.............
I actually am getting a feel for what it is that I do with the camera. |
That's all I'm talking about. I'm not asking you to make photos that please me.
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12/02/2008 11:32:17 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
...truth be told, I'm not sure I'd want my brain to be any weirder than it already is......I'm an optimistic and hopeful enthusiast, but I like to think I live in the real world to an extent, too. |
â€Â¢ It's unfamiliarity that makes things appear weird...
â€Â¢ The real world, of course, is an illusion or a bourgeois concept, if you like. |
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12/02/2008 11:37:06 AM · #21 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Composition, lighting, the ability to see what belongs in the frame and what doesn't......yes, these are all things that are learnable, and that I'm way better at than I was when I got here, but what makes the photogs that you like the best, and have the most admiration for, cannnot be learned, IMO.
.............
I try to develop my own style and techniques for myself since I'm finally discovering the photographer that I am.
.............
I actually am getting a feel for what it is that I do with the camera. |
Originally posted by posthumous:
That's all I'm talking about. I'm not asking you to make photos that please me. |
That was the point I was trying to make when you were talking about the same old, same old......
To a certain extent, 'til you get the basics, learn how to use the cvamera, and how NOT to make the same nmistakes time and time again, the staples and mainstays of photography is how you learn to work forward from there.
Some of us are perfectly happy to learn the standard techniques.
I was mentioning in the Masters' thread that I gave six 10s. I also mentioned that all six opf them are fairly difficult, and that two of them I would not have even understood, much less appreciated three years ago.
As well as a better photographer, I'm a better viewer these days.
BTW, the two in particular that I truly liked that are "newer" tastes are a very traditional B&W and another image that's heavily symbol-laden.
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12/02/2008 11:40:19 AM · #22 |
Originally posted by karmat:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I eat M&Ms by color |
That is completely, totally, and inexplicably normal.
Trust me on this one.
:P |
Eating them in the order they drop from the corner you teared off is not normal? There goes my day...:( |
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12/02/2008 11:41:01 AM · #23 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
...truth be told, I'm not sure I'd want my brain to be any weirder than it already is......I'm an optimistic and hopeful enthusiast, but I like to think I live in the real world to an extent, too. |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
â€Â¢ It's unfamiliarity that makes things appear weird... |
weird adj. weird·er, weird·est - Of a strikingly odd or unusual character; strange.
Trust me.....you may not be familiar with me, but I'm weird.
I'm okay with that.......8>)
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12/02/2008 11:47:10 AM · #24 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I eat M&Ms by color |
Originally posted by karmat:
That is completely, totally, and inexplicably normal.
Trust me on this one.
:P |
Originally posted by Jac:
Eating them in the order they drop from the corner you teared off is not normal? There goes my day...:( |
Duh!
You MUST eat them by color!
Blue ones last 'cause they're the best!
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12/02/2008 12:04:35 PM · #25 |
Just to toss in my .02. When I first started here, I consistently got high 4's and low 5's. At that time, I thought my entries were good. Now I look back and realize that it wasn't just the technical aspects that were lacking but that certain thing that draws the viewer in. Not that I'm always successful with it now, and I do photograph many subjects that might be considered boring.
That being said, the DPC community is somewhat reminiscent of the community at large, I think. The photos I've done the best with here are ones I've sold commercially over and over again. I've learned a tremendous amount from this site, taken some harsh licks, learned from them, and hope to continue to do so. |
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