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12/13/2008 03:38:38 AM · #1701 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
It's just a statement of how the Christian belief system works in that we are all descendents of Adam & Eve ... |
Yeah, that's always confused me -- wouldn't that mean that Cain, Abel, and Seth would have had to marry their sisters? Or perhaps this is the root of the Oedipal myth ... |
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12/13/2008 09:15:11 AM · #1702 |
The destruction of the family by gays.......
This guy is sooooooooo rude, but this twisted little clip should make you think.
Gay Banditos-Lewis Black
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12/13/2008 09:57:30 AM · #1703 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I can understand how you may feel that acting upon being gay as a choice, but what about just being gay? |
The way I was raised to understand it:
God made everyone in his image. It can't be a sex thing as God is not male, nor female, he just is.
It can't be a race or ethnicity thing because God can't be both Asian and African, he just is.
It can't even be a body part thing because some people are born with not enough or even too many body parts.
It can't be a language thing, or an eye color thing, or a hair color thing, or a height thing, or a weight thing; we are all like God.
Can't be an intelligence thing or an education thing either; no matter how smart or stupid, no matter how book learned or ignorant, we are made in his image.
What's left? Soul. Spirit. Will. We are made like God in our hearts.
When this was told to me when I was eight, homosexuality wasn't discussed; it wasn't a prominent issue like race and sex were. But even then, I could understand that it didn't matter what you were on the 'outside,' it was what you were on the 'inside' that counted. What you hold dear in your heart, what you love and how you love it, is how you are related to God.
I am no longer a Catholic. I no longer call myself a Christian. I find them (and Muslims and Jews) to be too narrow minded and controlling with regard to God, Soul, purpose, and ideology. God doesn't care if you are gay, or a woman, or black, or Christian; its all a matter of heart. Of course, my view may be biased. I am a woman and my sex has been treated like crap by the big three western religions for eons, just for being female. If I believed any of them about my status, my worth, and my life, I wouldn't be the person I am today.
When people freely quote the bible as God's word and law, they often have either not read it closely, or they believe only parts of it, the parts they can stomach. Point out the slavery, the bigotry, the inhumane treatment afforded those that weren't 'special' men, and they dismiss it as 'not the real meaning.' So sad - there is so much to learn... |
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12/14/2008 12:26:50 PM · #1704 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
So I have a question.....
Would those of you who do concede that being gay is not a choice?
And if it's not a choice, how can it be immoral?
I can understand how you may feel that acting upon being gay as a choice, but what about just being gay? |
Maybe I missed it in the 65 pages of comments. Where is the proof tha being gay is not a choice?
Please don't site the Kinsey study. There have been many holes shot in his research. |
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12/14/2008 03:52:05 PM · #1705 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
So I have a question.....
Would those of you who do concede that being gay is not a choice?
And if it's not a choice, how can it be immoral?
I can understand how you may feel that acting upon being gay as a choice, but what about just being gay? |
Maybe I missed it in the 65 pages of comments. Where is the proof tha being gay is not a choice?
Please don't site the Kinsey study. There have been many holes shot in his research. |
It is REALLY easy to figure out: Do you have any choice in whom you find attractive? Of course you don't. You either find someone attractive, or you don't. Nothing you can about it, is there?
Neither can anyone else.
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12/14/2008 07:10:05 PM · #1706 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
So I have a question.....
Would those of you who do concede that being gay is not a choice?
And if it's not a choice, how can it be immoral?
I can understand how you may feel that acting upon being gay as a choice, but what about just being gay? |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Maybe I missed it in the 65 pages of comments. Where is the proof tha being gay is not a choice?
Please don't site the Kinsey study. There have been many holes shot in his research. |
Originally posted by rossbilly:
It is REALLY easy to figure out: Do you have any choice in whom you find attractive? Of course you don't. You either find someone attractive, or you don't. Nothing you can about it, is there?
Neither can anyone else. |
Well put!
That soooooooo eliminates anything that science or theology can say in 146,562 pages!
LOL!!!
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12/14/2008 07:16:09 PM · #1707 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
So I have a question.....
Would those of you who do concede that being gay is not a choice?
And if it's not a choice, how can it be immoral?
I can understand how you may feel that acting upon being gay as a choice, but what about just being gay? |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Maybe I missed it in the 65 pages of comments. Where is the proof tha being gay is not a choice?
Please don't site the Kinsey study. There have been many holes shot in his research. |
Welcome to the lion pit.
First......you mean CITE, right?
Who's Kinsey?
And I'm pretty much assuming that you have no gay friends, relatives, or have been around gay people much if there's any question.
If you think that being gay is a choice it's because you've been sold a bill of goods that you accepted without so much as questioning the veracity.
Think about it......it just doesn't make sense.
Why would anyone want to bring down all the hate, fear, and disdain that goes with being gay from people who don't like gay people and/or are fearful of them for completely reasons that are not even their own thoughts?
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12/14/2008 10:15:11 PM · #1708 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
First......you mean CITE, right? |
Oops. You got it
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Who's Kinsey? |
Kinsey is who is usually cited when sexual statistics are needed. He's the one who came up with the 10% theory (10% of the population is gay). An incorrect percentage that was skewed do to his sampling.
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
And I'm pretty much assuming that you have no gay friends, relatives, or have been around gay people much if there's any question. |
Bad assumption. I live and work in southern California. We're pretty diverse here. Maybe I should ask them instead, but they're not as outspoken.
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
If you think that being gay is a choice it's because you've been sold a bill of goods that you accepted without so much as questioning the veracity. |
I've seen studies to the contrary. If it's such an innate characteristic, why wouldn't it be something provable?
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Why would anyone want to bring down all the hate, fear, and disdain that goes with being gay from people who don't like gay people and/or are fearful of them for completely reasons that are not even their own thoughts? |
That's what I'm trying to figure out myself.
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12/14/2008 10:32:30 PM · #1709 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Where is the proof that being gay is not a choice? |
Start here and here. There is some compelling evidence, but it hasn't been conclusively proven yet. Consider the fact that until the latter part of the 1800's there was no proof that germs cause disease, and black holes weren't actually proven to exist until this year. Do you have proof that it IS a choice? |
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12/15/2008 09:30:22 AM · #1710 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
I'd also like to note:
I am not a sinner.
There is no sin in my philosophy, only unfortunate or immoral acts. No sin.
How many times must I be told that I am a sinner, when the concept isn't even valid in my worldview?
I've repeatedly asked people not to call me a sinner in these threads, even by implication (e.g. "no one is without sin"). That is an imposition of your personal beliefs onto my character, and of the worst kind. It's intellectual violence, and I find it deeply insulting. I've mentioned this previously as well.
Will religious types never tire of shoving their 'lifestyle' down everyone else's throats? Flaunting it, as it were? |
Please accept my appologies If I was a cause of your feeling insulted. Please be assured that no such intent was intended. I have missed your prior requests and mentions.
I am intrigued however on why you feel the mention of what the Bible clearly states (none are without sin), is akin to intellectual violence and insulting. To me it is simply a statement of fact - regardless of the term (ie. unfortunate or immoral acts).
If I am in the category of those religious types that keep shoving their lifestyle down everyone else's throat I can assure you that I don't see it that way at all. Specifically my very intentional options to choose or not. For whatever it is worth, I see this kind of sensitivity as part of the problem and offer up a recent email I received which in my view sums it up - at least for me. It uses Democrats and Republicans as the two representitive groups - but in my view these could be substituted quite easily for other participants in the secular/religious camps.
"To All My Democrat Friends:
Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low-stress, non-addictive, gender-neutral celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasion and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all. I also wish you a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year 2009, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make America great. Not to imply that America is necessarily greater than any other country nor the only America in the Western Hemisphere . Also, this wish is made without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith or sexual preference of the wishee.
To My Republican Friends:
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! "
edited for spelling and punctuation corrections
Message edited by author 2008-12-15 09:38:28. |
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12/15/2008 09:40:45 AM · #1711 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low-stress, non-addictive, gender-neutral celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasion and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all. I also wish you a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year 2009, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make America great. Not to imply that America is necessarily greater than any other country nor the only America in the Western Hemisphere . Also, this wish is made without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith or sexual preference of the wishee. |
As someone who subscribes to the lunar calendar, I find the fact that you're constantly shoving your sun worship down my throat particularly insulting.
(j/k -- Happy Kwanzaa) |
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12/15/2008 09:48:05 AM · #1712 |
Originally posted by eqsite:
As someone who subscribes to the lunar calendar, I find the fact that you're constantly shoving your sun worship down my throat particularly insulting. |
I was going to point out the insulting omission of women (not to mention Jewish Republicans), but it IS a funny email message for friends. ;-)
Message edited by author 2008-12-15 09:48:26. |
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12/15/2008 09:48:12 AM · #1713 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Nullix:
Where is the proof that being gay is not a choice? |
Start here and here. There is some compelling evidence, but it hasn't been conclusively proven yet. Consider the fact that until the latter part of the 1800's there was no proof that germs cause disease, and black holes weren't actually proven to exist until this year. Do you have proof that it IS a choice? |
I like your term "compelling evidence" and the further mention that it hasn't been proven yet. Your examples of other previously unknowns that were latter known - strikes me as particularly insightful in light of your past arguments against scripture or biblical archeology. I had long concluded that you were quite selective in your use of positional arguments. I appreciate the compelling evidence. |
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12/15/2008 09:53:59 AM · #1714 |
Originally posted by Flash:
I am intrigued however on why you feel the mention of what the Bible clearly states (none are without sin), is akin to intellectual violence and insulting. To me it is simply a statement of fact - regardless of the term (ie. unfortunate or immoral acts). |
It's not a statement of fact. It's an assertion that you believe to be fact, and the idea that everyone is sinful enough to require repentance is insulting. It's also borderline blasphemous to effectively declare that even the newborn creation of an infallible, omnipotent deity should be so flawed. |
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12/15/2008 09:59:29 AM · #1715 |
Originally posted by Flash:
I appreciate the compelling evidence. |
Then you'll appreciate this one, too. "Brain scans have provided the most compelling evidence yet that being gay or straight is a biologically fixed trait." |
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12/15/2008 10:13:04 AM · #1716 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
First......you mean CITE, right? |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Oops. You got it |
Sorry......8>)
MY OCD just kicks in at random moments....
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Who's Kinsey? |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Kinsey is who is usually cited when sexual statistics are needed. He's the one who came up with the 10% theory (10% of the population is gay). An incorrect percentage that was skewed do to his sampling. |
Okay, thanks.....never have read all that much about the whole thing.
The majority of my views and knowledge of gay people is from four decades of friends of mine.
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
And I'm pretty much assuming that you have no gay friends, relatives, or have been around gay people much if there's any question. |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Bad assumption. I live and work in southern California. We're pretty diverse here. Maybe I should ask them instead, but they're not as outspoken. |
See, that's one of those things that I mena when I say my knowledge is for the most part empirical.......I have a lot of friends who run the gamut of the stereotypical bitch queens to people you would never think are gay unless they mentioned it, and to the very last one, it's not really so much an issue as just who they are like I am. I'm who I am, husband and father, but that's secondary to me as a human being.
It never occurred to me that I have a choice about my feelings, attractions, curiosities.......I know that some of the predilections I have are to a certain extent environmental, but I have also rejected some of them as well because they didn't sit well with me.
I grew up in an environment surrounded and inundated with bigotry and class consciousness that I found to be pretty abhorrent.
I chose to break that cycle in my family.
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
If you think that being gay is a choice it's because you've been sold a bill of goods that you accepted without so much as questioning the veracity. |
Originally posted by Nullix:
I've seen studies to the contrary. If it's such an innate characteristic, why wouldn't it be something provable? |
I'd imagine it probably is, but I've never been in need of seeing it written down as it seems obvious to me.
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Why would anyone want to bring down all the hate, fear, and disdain that goes with being gay from people who don't like gay people and/or are fearful of them for completely reasons that are not even their own thoughts? |
Originally posted by Nullix:
That's what I'm trying to figure out myself. |
For me, I credit people with more sense than to unnecessarily bring down fear and hatred down on themselves. That may be a misguided assumption, but I'm stickin' with it!....8>)
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12/15/2008 10:16:14 AM · #1717 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Flash:
I am intrigued however on why you feel the mention of what the Bible clearly states (none are without sin), is akin to intellectual violence and insulting. To me it is simply a statement of fact - regardless of the term (ie. unfortunate or immoral acts). |
It's not a statement of fact. It's an assertion that you believe to be fact, and the idea that everyone is sinful enough to require repentance is insulting. It's also borderline blasphemous to effectively declare that even the newborn creation of an infallible, omnipotent deity should be so flawed. |
This is a prime example of me being misquoted. I wrote that it is a fact that the bible says "none are without sin" not that I believe or claim that "none are without sin". The bible does say it. That is a fact. Not an assertion. |
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12/15/2008 10:34:44 AM · #1718 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Flash:
I am intrigued however on why you feel the mention of what the Bible clearly states (none are without sin), is akin to intellectual violence and insulting. To me it is simply a statement of fact - regardless of the term (ie. unfortunate or immoral acts). |
It's not a statement of fact. It's an assertion that you believe to be fact, and the idea that everyone is sinful enough to require repentance is insulting. It's also borderline blasphemous to effectively declare that even the newborn creation of an infallible, omnipotent deity should be so flawed. |
This is a prime example of me being misquoted. I wrote that it is a fact that the bible says "none are without sin" not that I believe or claim that "none are without sin". The bible does say it. That is a fact. Not an assertion. |
I call BS. You said, and I quote, "To me it is simply a statement of fact." It's not. It's a demeaning assertion made by the very human author(s) of an ancient text.
Message edited by author 2008-12-15 10:36:07. |
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12/15/2008 11:06:23 AM · #1719 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Flash:
I am intrigued however on why you feel the mention of what the Bible clearly states (none are without sin), is akin to intellectual violence and insulting. To me it is simply a statement of fact - regardless of the term (ie. unfortunate or immoral acts). |
It's not a statement of fact. It's an assertion that you believe to be fact, and the idea that everyone is sinful enough to require repentance is insulting. It's also borderline blasphemous to effectively declare that even the newborn creation of an infallible, omnipotent deity should be so flawed. |
This is a prime example of me being misquoted. I wrote that it is a fact that the bible says "none are without sin" not that I believe or claim that "none are without sin". The bible does say it. That is a fact. Not an assertion. |
That was an incredibly disingenuous argument.
Flash, if you can̢۪t see how your argument is disingenuous, let me know and I̢۪ll point out how. Otherwise, I really don̢۪t have the desire to expend the time and effort.
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12/15/2008 11:17:18 AM · #1720 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Flash:
I am intrigued however on why you feel the mention of what the Bible clearly states (none are without sin), is akin to intellectual violence and insulting. To me it is simply a statement of fact - regardless of the term (ie. unfortunate or immoral acts). |
It's not a statement of fact. It's an assertion that you believe to be fact, and the idea that everyone is sinful enough to require repentance is insulting. It's also borderline blasphemous to effectively declare that even the newborn creation of an infallible, omnipotent deity should be so flawed. |
This is a prime example of me being misquoted. I wrote that it is a fact that the bible says "none are without sin" not that I believe or claim that "none are without sin". The bible does say it. That is a fact. Not an assertion. |
I think it's more a prime example of you not writing clearly what you mean. |
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12/15/2008 11:19:45 AM · #1721 |
Synonyms for disingenuous:
left-handed, devious, duplicitous, indirect, shifty, sneaky, underhanded, artful, crooked, cunning, deceitful, designing
Not that I think you were being that way, Flash.
Its merely a statement of fact ;) |
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12/15/2008 11:43:32 AM · #1722 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Why would anyone want to bring down all the hate, fear, and disdain that goes with being gay from people who don't like gay people and/or are fearful of them for completely reasons that are not even their own thoughts? |
That's what I'm trying to figure out myself. |
Whenever someone avers that being gay is a choice, I wonder if they are basing that opinion on their own experience. Presumably their innate sexuality is mixed, but they have chosen to be straight. Otherwise they must believe they were born that way, in which case I congratulate them on their God-given heterosexuality. |
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12/15/2008 11:44:35 AM · #1723 |
| Hey! Wait a minute! I'm left handed! Are you going to start bashing redheads next??? ;) |
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12/15/2008 12:20:34 PM · #1724 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
Hey! Wait a minute! I'm left handed! Are you going to start bashing redheads next??? ;) |
Hmm......
Left-handed *AND* a redhead????
You have my deepest and most heartfelt sympathy! LOL!!!
Next you're gonna tell us you're a woman and a recovering Catholic!
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12/15/2008 12:24:23 PM · #1725 |
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