Are gay rights, including gay marriage, evolving?

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

01/20/2010 02:18:04 PM · #4076

Originally posted by scalvert:

Whoa... that's giving pants-optional cartoon characters some serious competition on the weirdness scale. This is the first time I've ever heard anyone claim rocks were subject to corruption. You're also ascribing omnipotence to Satan. Is there some provision in the Bible for deities other than God wielding supernatural powers? Plate tectonics aren't evil, and shifting in any manner is what we call an earthquake.

Satan has powers that are not natural. The Bible tells us that. If this is the first time you've heard someone claim that the world is subject to corruption then you haven't read this. Romans 8:20-21, "For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that[a] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God." That's the NIV. Most other versions translate "decay" as "corruption". But it's the same idea.

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
He is the creator of everything. Sin, or evil, is simply using your God-created free will to choose to go against God's will. God gave Lucifer a free will and instead of freely and willfully choosing to love God, Lucifer chose to love himself and thus became Satan.

Um... free will does not give one the ability to cause natural disasters. God would also have to give Lucifer supernatural powers (and be unable or unwilling to take 'em back).

Free will allowed Lucifer to choose his own way, and sin entered Lucifer. Free will allowed Adam to choose his own way, and sin entered Adam. We also see that sin entered the world. Satan took the form of a snake (part of the world) and nature stopped producing food on it's own. From that point forward, Adam had to cultivate the plants in order to get food. So, I think it's safe to say that all of nature is corrupt, including shifting plates.

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

01/20/2010 02:19:28 PM · #4077

Originally posted by scalvert:

...PS- you're also equating homosexuality (as a sin) with choice (your definition of sin). Achoo tried to dodge that connection by claiming that animals are considered amoral, but he failed to address the fact that animals exhibit homosexuality at all. If the behavior is not "using your God-created free will to choose to go against God's will," then it must be God's creation to begin with.

Sheesh Shannon...did you not read this part of the response: "The answer is that we don't know. This explanation is from The Reason for God by Timothy Keller that I recommended earlier".

Ray

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

01/20/2010 02:25:19 PM · #4078

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

Satan took the form of a snake (part of the world) and nature stopped producing food on it's own. From that point forward, Adam had to cultivate the plants in order to get food. So, I think it's safe to say that all of nature is corrupt, including shifting plates.

Really now... I can absolutely guarantee you that all kinds of people managed to survive quite nicely without having to resort to cultivating food... remember the term "Hunters and gatherers". Poor adam...it's a wonder he managed to survive. :O)

Ray

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

01/20/2010 02:30:10 PM · #4079

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Before Christ, God's anger was not yet satisfied (by Christ's death) and so his wrath was directed at mankind, so natural disasters were, at that time, just.

Wow. That, and calling everything associated with humanity an abomination, is just so ugly. What a depressing, demoralizing outlook on the universe. What a huge "no" to the universe. I'm so glad it's all just a twisted invention, but Jesus, how ugly.

I'm sorry that you feel justice is ugly. The beauty is that God is renewing and reconciling creation through Jesus Christ. And God will restore creation to it's originally intended state of perfection.

Revelation 21:1-5
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

5He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

Louis

Nikon D800

01/20/2010 02:34:10 PM · #4080

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Before Christ, God's anger was not yet satisfied (by Christ's death) and so his wrath was directed at mankind, so natural disasters were, at that time, just.

Wow. That, and calling everything associated with humanity an abomination, is just so ugly. What a depressing, demoralizing outlook on the universe. What a huge "no" to the universe. I'm so glad it's all just a twisted invention, but Jesus, how ugly.

I'm sorry that you feel justice is ugly. The beauty is that God is renewing and reconciling creation through Jesus Christ. And God will restore creation to it's originally intended state of perfection.

Tossing it in the processor and serving it up a few different ways doesn't disguise its disagreeable and ugly origins. Taking the absurdity of the fantasy to its ultimate nihilistic conclusion doesn't make it more palatable to people who love humanity, it makes it infinitely less so.

01/20/2010 02:37:58 PM · #4081

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Satan took the form of a snake (part of the world) and nature stopped producing food on it's own. From that point forward, Adam had to cultivate the plants in order to get food. So, I think it's safe to say that all of nature is corrupt, including shifting plates.

Really now... I can absolutely guarantee you that all kinds of people managed to survive quite nicely without having to resort to cultivating food... remember the term "Hunters and gatherers". Poor adam...it's a wonder he managed to survive. :O)

Ray

You'll have to excuse me. The Bible does not use the word "cultivate". My mistake. This is what it actually says:

Genesis 3:17,19
Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.
By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food

I think that "hunting" and "gathering" both qualify as "painful toil" and "the sweat of your brow".

01/20/2010 02:44:58 PM · #4082

Originally posted by Louis:

Yes, mankind does have an ugly origin. But Christ offers a solution to the ugliness. No other religion or science offers the same kind of hope and regeneration of Christ, which is why Christianity is so unique. How will humanity end under the explanation of evolution? Extinction perhaps? Many evolutionists argue that human evolution has stopped, and that whatever state our race is in now, is as Utopian as it will get.

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

01/20/2010 02:50:19 PM · #4083

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

ROFL! So why didn't Adam also cause natural disasters and shapeshift into talking reptiles? You didn't address my point that only God is supposed to be omnipotent (as Matthew suggests), so Satan cannot cause disasters unless God grants that ability and is unable or unwilling to take it away (at the expense of countless innocent souls). Satan apparently already existed before Adam & Eve's big pop quiz, so you're saying that God not only created Satan and gave him superpowers and free will, but knowingly ran that play again while allowing the first failure to serve as tour guide. Not a very bright move.

If nature stopped producing food on its own, then the food chain would completely collapse, and all life would die out... unless you're suggesting that Adam cultivated penguin chow and wombat feed. Anyhoo, we're getting off topic again. Hilariously entertaining, but off topic.

Louis

Nikon D800

01/20/2010 02:56:15 PM · #4084

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

Originally posted by Louis:

Tossing it in the processor and serving it up a few different ways doesn't disguise its disagreeable and ugly origins. Taking the absurdity of the fantasy to its ultimate nihilistic conclusion doesn't make it more palatable to people who love humanity, it makes it infinitely less so.

Yes, mankind does have an ugly origin.

You misunderstand. Your religion is the one with the ugly origin, your dogmatic position is unappealing. The fact that you make the statement that mankind has an "ugly origin" is exactly what I'm talking about. Your faith encapsulates a nihilistic outlook, a depressing and needless condemnation of humankind, a resounding NO to humanity and life. It's very ugly indeed.

Some context about your remark about evolution. Natural selection (which is actually Darwin's contribution, not evolution) is still ongoing, and evolution doesn't necessarily result in a "better" product. The overwhelming consensus is that we are, indeed, still evolving. Anything else is a fringe opinion as far as I can tell.

Message edited by author 2010-01-20 14:59:40.

01/20/2010 03:01:45 PM · #4085

Originally posted by scalvert:

God is omnipotent, but that doesn't mean that Satan has no power or authority. You're saying that God has all authority, so that means nobody else can have any authority. That's poor logic. God's creation is hierarchical. God->Angels->man->animals. God has authority over everything, and he has given some authority to the rest of his creation. God gave the angels certain abilities. When Lucifer fell from grace, he didn't lose all of his power, he just changed sides.

Again, if God stopped the play then we would be contradicting himself and compromising his plan. God's plan was to create people that would willingly choose to love him, please him, and worship him. If God just stopped the play after Act 1, he would be like a movie director that changes his mind, admits failure, and throws out the script and starts over. God does not contradict himself because he does not make mistakes, he does not fail, and he certainly doesn't destroy the set and all the actors that he lovingly prepared for glory.

01/20/2010 03:15:54 PM · #4086

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

You're saying that God has all authority, so that means nobody else can have any authority. That's poor logic.

We're talking about religion, which is antithetical to logic. Romans: "there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God."

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

God gave the angels certain abilities. When Lucifer fell from grace, he didn't lose all of his power, he just changed sides.

In early Christianity, angels were only messengers of God. Can you find anything to suggest they held influence over the laws of nature?

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

God's plan was to create people that would willingly choose to love him, please him, and worship him... he does not fail.

Adam & Eve beg to differ.

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

If God just stopped the play after Act 1, he would be like a movie director that changes his mind, admits failure, and throws out the script and starts over. God does not contradict himself because he does not make mistakes, he does not fail, and he certainly doesn't destroy the set and all the actors that he lovingly prepared for glory.

Ever Hear of Noah's Ark? Jesus and virtually all of his disciples died horrible deaths, too. Maybe this is where actors get the phrase, "Break a leg?" ...and an arm, and your neck...

Message edited by author 2010-01-20 15:18:48.

01/20/2010 03:19:30 PM · #4087

Originally posted by Louis:

So, the earth with it's violent beginnings is not ugly? Species trampling over other species for their own self-preservation is beautiful? What about the ancient religions? Most of them taught that the world and mankind were created as a result of the gods fighting and quarreling amongst each other. Christianity is definitely not the only religion with an ugly origin. My religion does have an ugly origin, but it certainly does not have a nihilistic outlook. Christianity has a very hopeful and optimistic outlook. It also does not have needless condemnation of humankind. Christianity provides a number of good explanations for sin and the state of humankind. God is the author of life, sustainer of life, and the restorer of life.

01/20/2010 03:35:06 PM · #4088

Originally posted by scalvert:

We're talking about religion, which is antithetical to logic. Romans: "there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God."

I would disagree with that. I think that logic is very compatible with religion.

Originally posted by scalvert:

In early Christianity, angels were only messengers of God. Can you find anything to suggest they held influence over the laws of nature?

Revalation 7:1, "After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree."

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

God's plan was to create people that would willingly choose to love him, please him, and worship him... he does not fail.

Originally posted by scalvert:

Adam & Eve beg to differ.

God's plan was to create people that would choose to love and worship him. He succeeded in creating Adam and Eve, and Adam and Eve carried out God's plan of loving and worshiping him. Satan spoiled God's plan by getting Adam and Eve to fail. God did not fail. Adam and Eve were the failures.

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

Ever Hear of Noah's Ark? Jesus and virtually all of his disciples died horrible deaths, too. Maybe this is where actors get the phrase, "Break a leg?" ...and an arm, and your neck... [/quote]

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

he certainly doesn't destroy the set and all the actors

The flood was not a complete do-over. God left Noah and many animals alive didn't he? God filtered out the good from the bad, he didn't hit the reset button. The flood was a planned solution to a human generated problem.

Edit: Anyways... We are waaaaaay off topic now so I'm going to shut up and do something productive today other than sitting at the computer.

Message edited by author 2010-01-20 15:36:01.

01/20/2010 03:47:18 PM · #4089

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

I think that logic is very compatible with religion.

"After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree."

Poor choice of juxtaposition. LOL

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

If my plan is to create a great dessert, and the dinner I also created turns out to ruin dessert, then I failed. An omniscient creator of everything bears all responsibility for the consequences of those creations.

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

One word: dinosaurs.

DrAchoo

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5

01/20/2010 03:49:43 PM · #4090

Give it up Johnny. Shannon and others are extremely adept at ripping down. They have nothing to offer in its place, but they are merely content to destroy.

DrAchoo

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5

01/20/2010 04:10:08 PM · #4091

BTW, as a disclaimer, I did not read each and every post in the current debate with Johnny, so I can't say I agree with everything he has said.

Carry on.

01/20/2010 04:27:40 PM · #4092

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

You really believe this?

If so, you are so totally cluelss it's pathetic.

You obviously have no idea how much food grows in the wild.

Are you aware of how food grows? Have you ever seen a garden? Have you seen what happens to fruit and vegetables if you don't harvest them?

Guess what? They go wild and regenerate......are you ready????

ALL BY THEMSELVES!!!!

01/20/2010 04:30:18 PM · #4093

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Give it up Johnny. Shannon and others are extremely adept at ripping down. They have nothing to offer in its place, but they are merely content to destroy.

Hey, bite me!

You get some guy who doesn't even know how food grows and you expect us to buy the total garbage he has to offer????

Get a grip!

Do YOU know how food grows, even if there's no Adam around to cultivate the ground???

01/20/2010 04:33:55 PM · #4094

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

Christianity has a very hopeful and optimistic outlook. It also does not have needless condemnation of humankind.

Unless you don't buy into it, then it's burn, baby, burn, isn't it?

Considering how many good and decent people that are out there who are not Christians, and would never be, perhaps you'd care to explain that needless condemnation comment.

DrAchoo

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5

01/20/2010 04:33:58 PM · #4095

Take your ritalin Jeb...

One sentence paragraphs...

Not your strong suit...

This is all in jest...

01/20/2010 04:36:17 PM · #4096

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Again, it seem like you really don't know much about people.

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

If you choose to be deliberately obtuse...

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

So now I'm an obtuse, discriminatory, arrogant murderer that just doesn't understand anything... Thank you for all the kind judgments of my character!

Now I'm an obtuse, discriminatory, arrogant murderer that doesn't understand anything, AND I have no idea how plants grow, AND I'm also totally clueless and pathetic! My, the generous words just keep stacking up!

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

You obviously have no idea how much food grows in the wild.

Are you aware of how food grows? Have you ever seen a garden? Have you seen what happens to fruit and vegetables if you don't harvest them?

Guess what? They go wild and regenerate......are you ready????

ALL BY THEMSELVES!!!!

I never argued that humans can't wander around and gather food from plants that grow it naturally, I simply argued that gathering still requires work. In other words, food doesn't just fall into your lap.

01/20/2010 04:36:40 PM · #4097

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

I think that "hunting" and "gathering" both qualify as "painful toil" and "the sweat of your brow".

Back to......obviously not someone who's ever been out for a walk on a summer afternoon and stumbled upon a wild raspberry patch. Yeah......plopping down with a couple handfuls of one of the finest delicacies on earth is *such* a chore!

01/20/2010 04:39:40 PM · #4098

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
I think that "hunting" and "gathering" both qualify as "painful toil" and "the sweat of your brow".

Back to......obviously not someone who's ever been out for a walk on a summer afternoon and stumbled upon a wild raspberry patch. Yeah......plopping down with a couple handfuls of one of the finest delicacies on earth is *such* a chore!

Yes, and the early humans just spent their days aimlessly wandering day in and day out and there was enough of an abundance of raspberry bushes to sustain groups of humans wandering around together for days at a time. Yes, that's exactly what happened. But, I wonder what they did in the winter...