Are gay rights, including gay marriage, evolving?

01/16/2010 12:39:40 AM · #3951

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Titia:
If a couple (different or same sex) doesn't want to get married officially, they can choose to sign a partnership contract at a notary office, in order to get legal rights, which is obligitory when, for instance, they want to buy a house together.

Legally speaking, what is the difference between an official marriage and a "partnership contract"?

If you're asking about The Netherlands, I don't know ...

In the USA (where most of this discussion has been focused), there are specific legal rights regarding taxes, inheritance, child custody, medical decision-making, etc., which are conferred by state-sanctioned marriage and are not by domestic partnership agreements -- I think we've been over this several times in this thread. One glaring difference is the ability (or lack thereof) to file a joint tax return ...

No, no, I'm asking about the Netherlands. I know about the boring US... :P

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 28-300mm f3.5-5.6G ED VR

01/18/2010 03:24:16 AM · #3952

It's really amazing how we Americans spend so much time arguing about our rights. I'm not trying to belittle the issue of gay rights, but let's be honest... even the most marginalized and discriminated against groups in the United States have far more individual rights and liberties than many people around the world. Americans arguing over who should have the most rights is like all the millionaires in the world arguing who should have to pay the most taxes. We're the most privileged people in the world, and the USA is less than 0.5% of the world population. The millionaires of the world make up 1.5% of the global population.

We're all here arguing for homosexuals to have the right to marriage, while homosexuals in other countries don't even have the right to live. And what else do we Americans argue over? Taxes, healthcare, energy, politics? We pay more in taxes than millions of people earn in wages. We complain about the cost of health insurance and prescription drugs while millions of people die of preventable diseases. We complain about pollution and the price of gasoline while millions of people don't even have a lamp, let alone an iPhone or a computer...

Again, I'm not trying to belittle the importance of equality and human rights in the USA, but when we step outside the box and compare ourselves to the rest of the world how can we complain about what we have and still sleep at night? My, we are a greedy people. What's that saying? Something about, "The rich get richer..."?

I know somebody is going to say, "well you're not gay so you don't know what it's like to face that discrimination!" Well, you're right, I don't know what it's like. But I'm just hurting inside reading about Haiti and then looking at this forum and thinking, "man, we are a screwed up people." I'm sure the people in Haiti are less worried about wedding rings, marriage certificates, and tax breaks and a whole lot more worried about whether or not their loved ones are even alive or crushed under a pile of cement.

Sorry to lay on a guilt trip, but I think we should feel guilty. There's a whole lot of people in this world that don't even get to vote on a piece of legislation, much less hope that some piece of legislation will ever pass that will give them some "rights" that they only imagine in their dreams...

Feel free to rip me apart if you wish.

NikonJeb

Nikon D850

01/18/2010 06:27:52 AM · #3953

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

Again, I'm not trying to belittle the importance of equality and human rights in the USA, There's a whole lot of people in this world that don't even get to vote on a piece of legislation, much less hope that some piece of legislation will ever pass that will give them some "rights" that they only imagine in their dreams...

Then don't.....and since this is what this thread is about, participate or not, but keep on topic

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

I know somebody is going to say, "well you're not gay so you don't know what it's like to face that discrimination!" Well, you're right, I don't know what it's like.

You may not be aware of situations like Matthew Shepard, but it isn't just a case of someone not being able to file a joint tax return. People get killed simply for being who they are when they're gay. You apparently are either unaware of that, or don't care. I'd hate to think you don't care.

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

But I'm just hurting inside reading about Haiti and then looking at this forum and thinking, "man, we are a screwed up people." I'm sure the people in Haiti are less worried about wedding rings, marriage certificates, and tax breaks and a whole lot more worried about whether or not their loved ones are even alive or crushed under a pile of cement.

Okay, what are you doing about it? Are you going to get on a plane and go help? Have you sponsored someone to go in your stead? Have you gone door to door in your neighborhood collecting cans and packages of food and taken them to the Red Cross? Or are you just spouting off?

I've done nothing like that personally.

However......I did get together with a couple of concerned folks and shoot a few pictures of a nine year old boy here last week for his parents. The boy was riding in the big yellow plow truck that the township I live in uses. He was having a ball, and they wanted to record the event and have some pics of Conner riding in the truck with a big silly smile. We put together some prints and a disc for his partents. See, Conner is in end stage leukemia, and they stopped all his treatments because they project that he's only got a month or so to live.

So if it's okay with you, I'll be heartbroken for this dear sweet little boy, and I gratefully donated the time and materials for his parents who are suffering greatly right here at home.

There are other people here who do much of the same kind of things with their time and money.......those who care, and step far outside their comfort zone and do what they can. And they do this day in and day out, not just when something on the front page catches their eye. If it weren't for people like that who work constantly to try and make life better for the homeless, worry about kids, try to make living conditions better for people who can't afford it, and provide even the most basic things like clean water, food, and heat, the world would not be what it is. Don't think for one second that you care more about humanity than the rest of us.

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

Sorry to lay on a guilt trip, but I think we should feel guilty.

You go ahead and waste a bunch of time on guilt and recrimination if you like. As for me, I will continue to care, and do what I can to help out with the fight for equality. I will continue to do the work I can to make my little corner of the world a little better. And one of the things that I will do is speak out when someone who has no clue tries to downplay the importance of equal rights.

RayEthier

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

01/18/2010 08:39:02 AM · #3954

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

... The millionaires of the world make up 1.5% of the global population.

...Actually, I believe the number is closer to one fifth of one percent of the world's population, and that is including the massive increase of millionaires in the last few years.

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

...We're all here arguing for homosexuals to have the right to marriage, while homosexuals in other countries don't even have the right to live.

And of course maintaining the status quo and making no attempt at progress will somehow magically recitify all of the problems this group of individual faces. If indeed America is to be a leader, then it is incumbent upon it to clearly demonstrate that is is prepared to provide equal treatment of all of its' citizens.

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

...Again, I'm not trying to belittle the importance of equality and human rights in the USA, but when we step outside the box and compare ourselves to the rest of the world how can we complain about what we have and still sleep at night? My, we are a greedy people. What's that saying? Something about, "The rich get richer..."?

...How can you begin to think you are capable of feeling the plight of homosexuals? Have you ever personally experienced any of the discrimination that they have to deal with on a daily basis? I see you readily admit that you haven't and this diatribe is a very sorry excuse at justification. Should we wait till there are no wars, political strive, unfairness in the world before we address unjustices in the USA... I feel sorry for the downtrodden if indeed you earnestly believe we should do just that.

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

There's a whole lot of people in this world that don't even get to vote on a piece of legislation, much less hope that some piece of legislation will ever pass that will give them some "rights" that they only imagine in their dreams...

...Yes indeed, and anyone familiar with history will appreciate that there are other groups in society that at one time could only dream of being able to do some of the more mundane things that we take for granted today.

I do hope there aren't too many of your ilk in American society, otherwise certain segments of your society most surely will have a very bleak future.

Ray

01/18/2010 01:52:49 PM · #3955

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

I am aware of those kinds of situations, and I do care. People die for all sorts of things, not just homosexuals. People die because of religion, skin color, language, tribe, lack of clean water, etc...

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

I did actually sponsor someone to go to Haiti. But for the sake of not sounding boastful I will spare the details.

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Don't think for one second that you care more about humanity than the rest of us.

Interesting statement... I don't believe that I care more about humanity, and I certainly didn't say that. I wonder what your motive was behind that wild assumption...

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

I'm not trying to downplay the importance of equal rights. On the contrary, I'm trying to emphasis the importance of equal rights around the world. The equality gap between straights and gays in the United States is infinitely smaller than the equality gap between men and women in much of the world, or even between straights and gays in other countries.

I'm just asking that we all consider our own situations against the backdrop of humanity. Perhaps Americans are the most blessed and privileged people on Earth. But if that's the case why are we so concerned about getting more blessings and privileges for ourselves? Why such a great emphasis on ourselves? This is exactly the reason why much of the world despises Americans! From our perspective we are helping the world by setting an example of equality. From an outsider's perspective we are just selfish and greedy and we only want to help ourselves.

I'm not criticizing the struggle for equality in America, I'm simply asking that we come at this issue from a different angle (perhaps an outside angle) and reconsider our actions. Yes, people like Matthew Shepard have died in the USA because they were gay, and that is tragic. But what about the millions of people that have died around the world for being gay? Should we just ignore that until we get things straightened out in our own country?

Originally posted by RayEthier:

I lived in a homogeneous foreign country for a year and experienced racial discrimination almost daily. It's not the same, but I do know what being on the receiving end of discrimination is like.

Originally posted by RayEthier:

I do hope there aren't too many of your ilk in American society, otherwise certain segments of your society most surely will have a very bleak future.

Ray

And I hope there aren't too many of your ilk in American society, otherwise certain segments of our planet most surely will have a very bleak future. Oh, wait a minute...

RayEthier

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

01/18/2010 02:10:21 PM · #3956

Well Johnny, I read with interest your feeble attempt at a rebuke but found absolutely nothing that would salvage your first volley.

You chastise us for bringing forth the plight of the gay community (ie: many people) then quickly try to defend your assertions by telling us about your own personal experiences. Do you see the problem here in your counterpoint... Guess NOT huh?

Since you didn't bother to address them, I shall assume that you had no counter arguments for the other points I made reference to.

Ray

01/18/2010 02:27:27 PM · #3957

Originally posted by RayEthier:

You chastise us for bringing forth the plight of the gay community (ie: many people) then quickly try to defend your assertions by telling us about your own personal experiences. Do you see the problem here in your counterpoint... Guess NOT huh?

Again, I'm not trying to criticize or chastise anyone, I'm simply trying to turn our attention away from our own society and toward other societies. Ray, I was not defending any assertion by telling you about my own personal experiences. I brought up my personal experience of living in a foreign country and facing discrimination as a response to a question that you asked me. If you're going to pull that garbage then I'll just won't reply to you at all.

01/18/2010 02:53:32 PM · #3958

Do you really think it's reasonable, Ray, to call Johnny "ilk"? That sounds pretty insulting to me.

RayEthier

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

01/18/2010 03:16:17 PM · #3959

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Do you really think it's reasonable, Ray, to call Johnny "ilk"? That sounds pretty insulting to me.

What I meant would fall within the following definition:

Main Entry: ilk
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: kind, type
Synonyms: brand, class, classification, denomination, gender, kin, lot, order, persuasion, race, set, sort, species, variety

There was no intent to offend Johnnyphoto, and if I have then I sincerely apologize.

Ray

01/18/2010 03:47:08 PM · #3960

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

Perhaps Americans are the most blessed and privileged people on Earth. But if that's the case why are we so concerned about getting more blessings and privileges for ourselves? Why such a great emphasis on ourselves? This is exactly the reason why much of the world despises Americans!

No, that's exactly why much of the world admire Americans, because the struggle for universal equality is never finished so long as any kind of inequity exists. What would you have happen, anyway? Stop all advancement toward universal equality in your own country until the rest of the globe catches up to what you have now, with your leaders paternally shepherding Muslims, Hindus, Chinese, and everyone else in need of American-style equality toward some amorphous goal that nobody understands and that is impossible to realize cross-culturally? You do realize how unrealistic that is, right?

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

From our perspective we are helping the world by setting an example of equality. From an outsider's perspective we are just selfish and greedy and we only want to help ourselves.

So you admit you're setting an example, but you think you should act in ways that provide better optics to foreigners. Huh?

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

Yes, people like Matthew Shepard have died in the USA because they were gay, and that is tragic. But what about the millions of people that have died around the world for being gay?

I'm confused. Why are you arguing for both sides of this issue? You seem to be suggesting that gays should stop being so damn selfish and worry about Haitians, and then you seem to suggest that the poor gays in other countries need to have their rights worried about.

Message edited by author 2010-01-18 15:47:33.

01/18/2010 03:52:39 PM · #3961

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Do you really think it's reasonable, Ray, to call Johnny "ilk"? That sounds pretty insulting to me.

"Ilk" is a common word. Your ilk believes in God, Ray's ilk admonishes your ilk for misunderstanding. Means "kind (of thing)".

01/18/2010 04:23:38 PM · #3962

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

And I hope there aren't too many of your ilk in American society, otherwise certain segments of our planet most surely will have a very bleak future. Oh, wait a minute...

Can you elaborate on this?

01/18/2010 04:25:27 PM · #3963

Originally posted by Louis:

I realize that it's unrealistic. I don't think we should force our American culture with all of it's equalities upon other cultures. I just think Americans spend a little too much time worrying about only themselves.

Originally posted by Louis:

So you admit you're setting an example, but you think you should act in ways that provide better optics to foreigners. Huh?

All I'm saying is that we Americans are always trying to get more rights while the rest of the world thinks we have enough already. But we think it's okay because the equality that we're trying to accomplish is the way that it should be. Everyone should have equal rights. But then we contradict ourselves and say that while everyone should have equal rights, we're only going to help ourselves achieve that and the rest of the world will have to follow on their own. Then, in order to make sure we don't feel to guilty about just helping ourselves we sugar coat the problem by saying, "Oh, be we are setting such a great example!" Yea, that's a fabulous argument... I'll just set a good example for the Haitians and build a really nice earthquake proof building here in Chicago. Then, the Haitians can follow my example and do the same! Oh! I did such a nice thing! Lame...

Originally posted by Louis:

I didn't say that gays should stop being selfish, I said Americans should stop being selfish. In comparison to most of the world, we Americans are a selfish people. It's not selfish to worry about basic human rights in the United States. It is selfish to think that people in the United States are the only ones that need basic human rights.

This entire thread is about gay rights. Interestingly, 99% of the posts are about gay rights in the United States. What about the gays in the rest of the world? They don't matter?

Here's what I would like to see: If we're going to discuss human rights, let's actually talk about all humans, otherwise we're arguing over American rights.

01/18/2010 04:32:08 PM · #3964

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
And I hope there aren't too many of your ilk in American society, otherwise certain segments of our planet most surely will have a very bleak future. Oh, wait a minute...

Can you elaborate on this?

Ray's point (I think) was that if a bunch of people followed my suggestion of worrying about other people's rights around the world, then we would forget about our own rights here in America and many Americans would end up suffering.

My point was that if we do the opposite and worry about ourselves too much then other people around the world will continue to suffer and face a bleak future. I believe that this is exactly what has happened.

01/18/2010 04:48:04 PM · #3965

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
And I hope there aren't too many of your ilk in American society, otherwise certain segments of our planet most surely will have a very bleak future. Oh, wait a minute...

Can you elaborate on this?

Ray's point (I think) was that if a bunch of people followed my suggestion of worrying about other people's rights around the world, then we would forget about our own rights here in America and many Americans would end up suffering.

My point was that if we do the opposite and worry about ourselves too much then other people around the world will continue to suffer and face a bleak future. I believe that this is exactly what has happened.

So you're for helping people, just not those in the U.S.?

ETA: And how does this relate to gay marriage? Gays don't need help. They just need Christians to get out of the way and stop blocking their path to civil rights.

Message edited by author 2010-01-18 16:52:33.

01/18/2010 05:01:11 PM · #3966

Originally posted by yanko:

I'm for helping all people, in addition to those in the U.S.

How does this relate? The topic is, "Are gay rights evolving?" I would say that in many places around the world, gay rights (among other rights) are clearly not "evolving".

01/18/2010 05:18:09 PM · #3967

Originally posted by yanko:

ETA: And how does this relate to gay marriage? Gays don't need help. They just need Christians to get out of the way and stop blocking their path to civil rights.

This is unfair. There is no way 50% of the country goes to church on a regular basis and is any more "Christian" than being one by default since they are American. Certainly Maine is one of the least religious states in the union and more than 50% there were against gay marriage. If you think the matter is this simple, I think you are incorrect.

Ray, thanks for clearing things up. I have always thought of "ilk" as meaning "a group or kind" but always in a derogatory manner. To me it is synonymous with "scum" when used to describe someone. I had to look it up and I don't see my definition reflected at all other than, interestingly, the examples are all of a negative one:
"We'll not see his like again; I can't tolerate people of his ilk."
"He currently terrorises politicians and their ilk on `Newsnight'."
"Where others of his ilk have battled against drugs, Gabriel's problems have centred on his marriage."

Anyway, I'll assume the best intentions on your part and leave it at that.

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

01/18/2010 05:25:55 PM · #3968

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

So is your opposition religious, or secular? :P

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

01/18/2010 05:27:21 PM · #3969

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Ray, thanks for clearing things up. I have always thought of "ilk" as meaning "a group or kind" but always in a derogatory manner. To me it is synonymous with "scum" when used to describe someone. I had to look it up and I don't see my definition reflected at all other than, interestingly, the examples are all of a negative one:
"We'll not see his like again; I can't tolerate people of his ilk."
"He currently terrorises politicians and their ilk on `Newsnight'."
"Where others of his ilk have battled against drugs, Gabriel's problems have centred on his marriage."

Anyway, I'll assume the best intentions on your part and leave it at that.

Whilst I'm sure Ray's intentions were entirely neutral, I think Doc's correct that "ilk" carries a distinctly negative overtone. I wouldn't use it to praise someone, basically; "You and your ilk have done some wonderful work with the homeless this winter!" just doesn't sound right to me.

R.

01/18/2010 05:33:04 PM · #3970

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
This is unfair. There is no way 50% of the country goes to church on a regular basis and is any more "Christian" than being one by default since they are American. Certainly Maine is one of the least religious states in the union and more than 50% there were against gay marriage. If you think the matter is this simple, I think you are incorrect.

So is your opposition religious, or secular? :P

Ha. On this thread would I ever be seen other than through a religious lens?

01/18/2010 05:44:58 PM · #3971

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by yanko:
ETA: And how does this relate to gay marriage? Gays don't need help. They just need Christians to get out of the way and stop blocking their path to civil rights.

This is unfair. There is no way 50% of the country goes to church on a regular basis and is any more "Christian" than being one by default since they are American. Certainly Maine is one of the least religious states in the union and more than 50% there were against gay marriage. If you think the matter is this simple, I think you are incorrect.

What does going to church have to do with anything? I'm lazy so I'll just quote Wikipedia:

Originally posted by wikipedia:

The religious affiliations of the people of Maine are shown below:

Christian â�� 82%
Protestant â�� 45%
Baptist (mostly American Baptist) â�� 16%
Methodist (mostly United Methodist Church with 31.689 members)[20] â�� 9%
Episcopalian â�� 8%
United Church of Christ (29,122 members)[20] / Congregational â�� 8%
Pentecostal â�� 6%
Lutheran â�� 3%
Other Protestant or general Protestant â�� 10%
Roman Catholic (283.024 members)[20] â�� 37%
Other Christian â�� 1%
Other religions â�� 1%
Non-religious â�� 17%

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 ED

01/18/2010 06:03:37 PM · #3972

You aren't really going to make me explain are you? Maine's church attendance is 31%. Polls like that have lots of people who declare themselves "Christian" just because their parents were or they are American or what not. It's like being declared Native American because your great-grandmother on you dad's side was an Apache. Does that designation indicate that your behavior and attitudes can now be succinctly categorized based on your Apache-ness?

So basically you are saying the Christian in Maine doesn't value their religion enough to attend church, but does value it enough to vote against gay marriage solely on that basis. Just seems odd to me.

Apple iPhone 5

01/18/2010 06:11:52 PM · #3973

Originally posted by yanko:

So you're for helping people, just not those in the U.S.?

I believe that our education like such as South Africa and, uh, the Iraq everywhere like, such as and...I believe that they should, our education over here in the U.S. should help the U.S., err, uh, should help South Africa and should help the Iraq and the Asian countries.

01/18/2010 06:15:09 PM · #3974

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Yikes. I wonder what Maineians (Maineites? Maineses?) would have to say about your characterization of their faith. "I don't need a church to pray to my god" is a familiar refrain, and I know that my entire church-eschewing, God-fearing family consider themselves as wholesomely Christian as anyone else. I do believe that yanko is correct. Church attendance means nothing to the value on puts in one's faith, and that faith unquestionably informs one's social views, especially about sexuality.