Are gay rights, including gay marriage, evolving?

12/25/2009 08:02:08 AM · #3326

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

I don't stress over proof, evidence, or facts like many of the people here in this thread, because I don't feel like I need to. I don't need evidence to continue living in my faith because I'm not trying to find the truth anymore. I believe I've already found it. People try to use evidence and scientific "fact" to make me falter and lose my faith.

Nobody here is trying to make you falter and lose your faith. It wouldn't hurt you to open your eyes and acknowledge that there are some considerable issues with this text that you want to hold infallible. If you choose to ignore them, that's fine, but then understand why people won't give you much in the way of credence when you say something.

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

It doesn't work because I don't believe science is truth. People try to use logic on me, but I don't believe that human logic is very logical at all.

Wow...

Well sir, if you choose to close your mind and only see what you want to see, then you'd be best off not debating anyone, because if you cannot accept facts when they are proven, then you're going to be stuck living in a narrow, weird existence. Accept that if you don't *believe* facts and logic, that doesn't make them any less true.

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

I think the Bible is logical and humans aren't.

Again, that's a choice, not something based on intelligent, verifiable fact. Again......not something with sound basis that you can expect a logical person to accept. But then, if you don't think that humans are logical, what's the point anyway?

So that kind of puts me of a mind that once again, you really don't want much to do with anyone who doesn't see it your way and you have nothing to offer that will make sense to someone who has no faith, right?

There's that Christian elitism that I find so distasteful all over again.

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

If God isn't real than who made the Bible? Is the story of Jesus Christ just some fantastical creation of the human mind that a group of people came up with? That's not logical to me! I think about all the great fantasy writers like J.R.R. Tolkien. That guy made up some crazy stuff! But there is honestly no comparison between the Bible and the Lord of the Rings...

Well, actually there is........written words with enough basis to sound good but with little or no verifiable facts.

If you'll remember, didn't all of us agree that there is a bunch of "crazy stuff" in the old testament?

I'm not trying to pick on you, but the views you hold of your fellow man by your actions and beliefs don't match the supposed teachings, and the more I run into people who reason the way you do, the more scared I become of people who profess to be the "right" kind of people because of the bible. Y'all just seem to X out anyone who doesn't see it your way or who isn't willing to renounce everything they know to be true for........well, I don't know what.

One last thing.......throughout this discussion, you have been asked a myriad of questions. I must assume that you have been immersed in biblical teachings because you never seem to actually answer questions, you merely quote scriptures. Is your faith such that you do not think for yourself because you believe the answer to every question man can ask is in the Bible?

Message edited by author 2009-12-25 08:05:03.

Panasonic LUMIX DMC-LX100

12/25/2009 08:13:29 AM · #3327

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

The singularity of God is not contradicted by the Trinity, you just don't understand the theology of the Trinity apparently.

Originally posted by Louis:

That's rich. I would really, really, really, really, really like to see you explain to us the theology of the Trinity in a way that will make us understand. I'm begging you. Please. Teach us the meaning of the trinity.

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

What he asked.....

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

Read this:[url=//www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByDate/2006/1442_What_is_the_doctrine_of_the_Trinity/]
//www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByDate/2006/1442_What_is_the_doctrine_of_the_Trinity/[/url]

Speaking for myself at least, rather than have a link to something that most of us have read, I was sort of curious to have you explain it in your words in such a manner that you'd do so that we may get a feel for how you believe it.

It's not that difficult of a concept to understand, but you have to have a certain suspension of disbelief in order for it to work.

The opening paragraph of YOUR link:

The doctrine of the Trinity is foundational to the Christian faith. It is crucial for properly understanding what God is like, how He relates to us, and how we should relate to Him. But it also raises many difficult questions. How can God be both one and three? Is the Trinity a contradiction? If Jesus is God, why do the Gospels record instances where He prayed to God?

And then it goes right to THIS?????

While we cannot fully understand everything about the Trinity

Here's where this logical human hits a wall. If I cannot fully understand, then where's my motivation for acceptance?

By your own link, therefore, you don't fully understand it either, do you?

spiritualspatula

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

12/25/2009 08:36:34 AM · #3328

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

By your own link, therefore, you don't fully understand it either, do you?

True, but he doesn't care if he does or not because the conclusion is foregone...
It's like a demented Cartesian statement... The Bible exists, therefore it's verified. The statement of The Bible is the Christian doctrine. Not only does it define God but purports that its very existence affirms its claims.
He's already pointed out that his fundamental source of truth differs from yours (and apparently all human logic, due to its silliness). Even if he were to admit the existence of holes in the stories of The Bible (meaning, they were actually holes in his eyes, not just your silly eyes), these holes could be explained away by saying God works in mysterious ways or it's God's plan to test my faith so that I may be better or something else along those lines. Logic cannot be used to persuade somebody who has already declared the absurdity of said logic.
Just count your blessings (har har) that he isn't forbidding gay marriage of any kind, I guess.

dahkota

Canon EOS-7D

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

12/25/2009 09:11:16 AM · #3329

For anyone interested in how the idea of the trinity came about, I suggest Arian Controversy, Arianism and First Council of Nicaea. Granted, its Wiki, but it will give you a general overview of the events that led up to the existence of the Trinity in christian dogma. It all came down to the definition of word...

Oh, and for the record, the Catholic Church was the first Christian Church in existence. All other christian sects/denominations splintered off from Catholicism. The first main schism was Arianism. The second was Eastern Orthodox. The first protestant sects/denominations didn't splinter off until the 1500's (Martin Luther), more than 1200 years after Catholicism (and christianity) came into existence.

If you are going to take the bible as gospel (good news), at least know the history.

12/25/2009 09:48:02 AM · #3330

Originally posted by dahkota:

Oh, and for the record, the Catholic Church was the first Christian Church in existence. All other christian sects/denominations splintered off from Catholicism. The first main schism was Arianism. The second was Eastern Orthodox. The first protestant sects/denominations didn't splinter off until the 1500's (Martin Luther), more than 1200 years after Catholicism (and christianity) came into existence.

If you are going to take the bible as gospel (good news), at least know the history.

Originally posted by dahkota:

Not true. There were followers of Christ during His life....thus Christians and first called Christians at a place called Antioch...Acts 11:26

12/25/2009 09:58:50 AM · #3331

Originally posted by dahkota:

Originally posted by David Ey:

Not true. There were followers of Christ during His life....thus Christians and first called Christians at a place called Antioch...Acts 11:26

Maybe so, but that hardly constitutes the organization, and formation, of an actual church/religion, now does it?

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

12/25/2009 10:24:15 AM · #3332

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Maybe so, but that hardly constitutes the organization, and formation, of an actual church/religion, now does it?

Yes, it does. If you read your bible and believed it you would know, but since you are not a believer your response is predictable. You and those like you are not likely to change your opinion. Some are too smart for their own good. It is a matter of faith my friend.

dahkota

Canon EOS-7D

12/25/2009 10:51:56 AM · #3333

Originally posted by David Ey:

Not true. There were followers of Christ during His life....thus Christians and first called Christians at a place called Antioch...Acts 11:26

They were Jews, just as Jesus was. About 20 years after his death, they proclaimed themselves christians and formed the first christian church - called Catholic (universal). St. Peter was the first bishop.

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

12/25/2009 10:54:15 AM · #3334

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Maybe so, but that hardly constitutes the organization, and formation, of an actual church/religion, now does it?

Originally posted by David Ey:

Okay, what was it called? Where was it set up? What constitutes its basic tenets? What are its ceremonies and stated mission(s)?

We've already been through the whole "Read the Bible" thing......you want us to selectively accept it unquestioningly, yet you constantly posit contrsdictions and confusing messages.

Seriously.....you want us all to buy into it, yet most of you constantly tell us we must be schooled in its intricacies, and every time someone asks a reasonable question, you accuse us of being "too smart for their own good" or some such nonsense.

What exactly does "too smart for their own good" mean?

That were too smart to buy into something without *any* form of actual verifiable basis?

Why is it a bad thing to ask for a reasonable, and sensible explanation of things outside of "because God says so".

It's all hearsay. Personally, I think God's a pretty smart guy if he can do it all, so why do I have to buy into your publication of contradictions and controversy written by humans?

Isn't it reasonable to expect that God would have better sense than to ask us to rely on our fellow man, all of whom by your own declarations are flawed, illogical sinners?

I'm just asking for something sensible to grasp onto and I don't get anything.

And you guys get all exasperated, difficult, dig in your heels, and don't give me a thing to help.

So......when I go and see my gay friends who are funny, smart, caring, hard-working, decent, and compasionate people, I have a really hard time with the idea that they are wrong, immoral, and will likely have no salvation because of something that they are that they have no more control over that beimng right or left handed.

Can you honestly tell me you cannot see my dilemma? I don't know you, and you tell me what I have to accpet to achieve salvation, based essentially on nothing but what you believe, yet I'm supposed to turn my back on people who I know and love.

How can that possibly make any sense?

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

12/25/2009 12:04:13 PM · #3335

Originally posted by David Ey:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Maybe so, but that hardly constitutes the organization, and formation, of an actual church/religion, now does it?

Yes, it does. If you read your bible and believed it you would know, but since you are not a believer your response is predictable. You and those like you are not likely to change your opinion. Some are too smart for their own good. It is a matter of faith my friend.

I truly am intrigued by that statement. What exactly does it mean? Surely you are not advocating that the "smart ones" will be condemned to eternal damnation or that the "not so smart ones" are the only ones to see and comprehend the message of God and to be granted access to the after life. Please do explain... that I might see.

Ray

Message edited by author 2009-12-25 12:04:43.

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

12/25/2009 12:56:41 PM · #3336

Might it be I should have said some THINK they are too smart to have faith in things they cannot see or find scientific proof of.(other than man caused global warming and a few other things) I don't intend to argue with any of you.
See you at the foot of God, where every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.
.........and Jeb, I think if you think about it you will know what I meant.
Good day.

Louis

Nikon D800

12/25/2009 01:24:24 PM · #3337

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

Read this:

"Ridiculous claims deserve ridicule."

Yeah. As I suspected, you are unable to explain it. So is the article you cite. Absurdly, after declaring that the trinity is essential to understanding the nature of God, the article says it is impossible to understand the trinity. This is just more ill-fitting gobbledygook that should raise alarm bells and warning signals, instead of causing one to relax all one's thinking faculties in order to be bowled over by the sheer insanity of such a preposterous proposition.

The article then goes on to blather about all the same ridiculous points we've heard before: three gods for the price of one, all equal but separate. Idiotic claims made in a complete vacuum of reality, attempting to offer up "proof" of this fantasy merely by citing themselves: "While Jesus prayed to God, they are both Persons combined into one, so Jesus couldn't have prayed to himself." Sheer lunacy. This isn't an explanation, it's the pleading of a deluded cultist, however eloquent it might seem.

It's obvious that you reject science for fantasy. It's obvious that you reject logic for fantasy. I am astounded that you find logic *in* that fantasy, and that *actual* logic is to be denied. This is merely depressing. You should be happy only to live in your faith, instead of attacking the meanings of words. You present the most chilling kind of Orwellian danger by doing so.

Now *I* will explain the trinity to *you*. It's exposited in only one place, I John 5:7-8, and only in Latin sources, not in the vast majority of the much older Greek sources. Its inclusion in later texts is a device, a trick that brings together unrelated passages elsewhere to exposit the full divinity of Jesus. In other words, the New Testament copyists *added* the full expository verse much later, because it plainly explained the dogma of the trinity in one convenient place, thereby neatly giving Jesus a full quotient of the complete godhead. Jesus is fully divine only in the context of this quote. Don't believe it? Doesn't matter, it's been the scholarly presumption since the early sixteenth century, if not long before. Why is it in a tiny minority of Greek texts? Because people like you, for whom dogma was preferred over science and scholarship, "discovered" a few Greek texts (ie., forged from the Latin vulgate into Greek in order to appear original) and demanded they be used as sources for inclusion in Erasmus' editio princeps, the flawed, incomplete source for all modern translations of the bible, including the King James version. We are left with the unpalatable reality that the trinity is a late medieval invention and a lie. So theologians have to perform all kinds of linguistic and logical acrobatics to make it seem like it actually means something, when it does not.

I pre-accept your complete and utter rejection of the logic, history, and science behind this post.

Message edited by author 2009-12-25 13:30:54.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

12/25/2009 02:10:38 PM · #3338

Originally posted by David Ey:

See, that right there is where you and I differ......you know you have the answers, and I know I don't.

There is so much out there I don't pretend to understand, yet I also don't think God gave me a brain, and the power of reason, to behave like an idiot and not question that which I do not understand.

Else how would I learn? How would I make intelligent decisions as to what is good and right? To blindly follow that which makes no sense to me, because someone, who is not God tells me is "The Way" without any reasonable veracity just doesn't cut it for me.

Yeah, you can tell me I pick and choose what works for me in the way of understanding what it is that is God's way, but doesn't it make some sort of sense that what appears to me, from action and deeds, to be good people, and that things that are inexplicably good, may just be evidence of grace, and that maybe I don't need some guy bellowing at me from a pulpit telling me if I don't do this and such, that I'm going to burn in Hell?

What if you're worng? What if maybe my rudimentary understanding is closer than you think? Then what?

Maybe God's scorekeeping is more about how we relate to each other, the good works we do, the honest attempts we make at getting along with, and caring for and about the people in our daily encounters.......maybe that means more than being able to quote scriptures and adopting an attitude that we're "chosen" because we can regurgitate words from a 2000 year old text of great controversy.

The biggest hurdle in my life to wanting to understand the Bible is the people who beat everyone who doesn't share their understanding and interpretation of it over the head with it. Doesn't that seem kind of odd? The very people who are the most adamant about it are the ones who are so insistent at adherence to *their* understanding of it, always falling back on the "You need to understand this in X context for it to be real."

That always puts me back to, "Okay.....but what about that guys over there, who claims to be just as much of an authority on the Bible as you, and you two have different views on X, Y, and Z. Which one of you is right? Who do *I* believe, and why?

Personally, I'd rather be wrong, and do my best to be decent to my fellow man in my life's travails, feeling that's the way God wants me to be, than go through life acting like anyone who doesn't see it my version of God's way is going to miss out on the "Big Reward".

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

12/25/2009 03:14:24 PM · #3339

Host Dave Iverson talks to historian Garry Wills about the New Testament writings of St. Paul.

Host: Dave Iverson

Guest:

* Garry Wills, emeritus professor of history at Northwestern University, and Pulitzer Prize-winning author of "Lincoln at Gettysburg," and other books including "What Paul Meant" and "What the Gospels Meant"

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

12/25/2009 04:59:09 PM · #3340

Originally posted by David Ey:

Perhaps you should have but you didn't. Surely you can see how easily things can be misinterpreted and just how it might be possible that some portions of the bible were misrepresented... humans do make mistakes on occasions you know.

Originally posted by David Ey:

See you at the foot of God, where every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.

Somehow, I truly don't expect any invitations to meet with YOUR god. Oh by the way you might be interested in This

Have a very Merry Christmas. :O)

Ray

Message edited by author 2009-12-25 17:00:02.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

12/25/2009 07:29:27 PM · #3341

"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus." â��Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Adrian Van der Kemp July 30, 1816, denouncing the doctrine of the Trinity and suggesting it to be so riddled in falsehood that only an authoritarian figure could decipher its meaning and, with a firm grip on people's spiritual and mental freedoms, thus convince the people of its truthfulness

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

would you rather just be critical, judgmental, and close-minded?

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

I'm a Christian and I believe what I believe. No amount of scientific evidence will change that.

Your statements speak for themselves, unfortunately.

12/25/2009 08:11:14 PM · #3342

You might quote a few lines from Charles Manson. He probably has a few interesting things to say about the here after.

DrAchoo

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5

12/25/2009 08:54:22 PM · #3343

This is what you guys are doing with your Christmas? Come on people! Merry Christmas!

If I've learned one thing from Rant, it is far, far easier to rip down beliefs than to defend them. Each and every one of us, if placed on the pedestal and in the crosshairs of the rest, would quickly feel foolish for putting stock in their beliefs.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

12/25/2009 09:03:53 PM · #3344

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Each and every one of us, if placed on the pedestal and in the crosshairs of the rest, would quickly feel foolish for putting stock in their beliefs.

I dispute that assumption, too, but I can still wish you a Merry Christmas. ;-)

DrAchoo

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5

12/26/2009 12:50:27 AM · #3345

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Each and every one of us, if placed on the pedestal and in the crosshairs of the rest, would quickly feel foolish for putting stock in their beliefs.

I dispute that assumption, too, but I can still wish you a Merry Christmas. ;-)

Aw Shannon, despite all our butting heads in this forum, I can heartily wish you and your family a Merry Christmas!

12/26/2009 08:37:59 AM · #3346

Originally posted by David Ey:

You might quote a few lines from Charles Manson. He probably has a few interesting things to say about the here after.

Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what this has to do with anything?????

12/26/2009 08:56:06 AM · #3347

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

This is what you guys are doing with your Christmas? Come on people! Merry Christmas!

Merry Christmas yourself, Bucko!......8>)

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

If I've learned one thing from Rant, it is far, far easier to rip down beliefs than to defend them. Each and every one of us, if placed on the pedestal and in the crosshairs of the rest, would quickly feel foolish for putting stock in their beliefs.

Nope!

My beliefs don't require anyone's approval, and I understand that some of what I believe isn't rational.

I guess so much of what bothers me about this is that in my view, I can't imagine God as being this strange deity that requires mindless fealty; if he created us and is all powerful, why did he give us the capacity to think as we do, and not expect us to ask questions?

To me, part of the Great Mystery of Life is the constant search to try and understand more, and that would be a natural course of said Great Mystery.

It boggles my teeny brain that this incredibly intelligent species, with reason, speech, and the opposing thumb is so divided by all these religions that are convinced that their way is the only way, and with that goes the righteous entitlement to X out everyone who doesn't share that belief with no conscience whatsoever.

History has proven time and time again that great and compassionate people transcend religious beliefs and I just don't for one millisecond accept that all of those great people, and the rest of us, aren't of the same God.

Yeah, my beliefs don't make any sense to those who are devout, and rigorous in their beliefs, that's fine, but in the meantime, I sure feel like I've got a lot more people to look to as potential friends and loved ones 'cause I don't just cancel them out because they don't go to "my" church.

The God of my understanding wants me to love, accept, and be understanding of ALL his children......not just those guys over there.....

I fall short 'cause I'm not perfect; I try to do my best......but I also don't believe I'm a vile heathen sinner because of something someone did an eon ago.

Message edited by author 2009-12-26 08:57:39.

DrAchoo

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

12/26/2009 12:53:24 PM · #3348

Heh, don't challenge us Jeb... :) We could have to writing in a tirade of one-sentence paragraphs before my coffee gets cold.

But don't fret, that's no different than anybody else.

Incidentally, when you say, "My beliefs don't require anyone's approval, and I understand that some of what I believe isn't rational." do you then place yourself in the group that your following quote would apply to?

"Nobody here is trying to make you falter and lose your faith. It wouldn't hurt you to open your eyes and acknowledge that there are some considerable issues with this text that you want to hold infallible. If you choose to ignore them, that's fine, but then understand why people won't give you much in the way of credence when you say something."

Just askin'...

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

12/26/2009 01:07:02 PM · #3349

Comments like this one Doc

"History has proven time and time again that great and compassionate people transcend religious beliefs and I just don't for one millisecond accept that all of those great people, and the rest of us, aren't of the same God."

Hope you are having a fantastic Christmas and that the New Year is replete with Health, Wealth and Happiness.

Ray