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12/18/2009 05:47:36 PM · #3126 |
Originally posted by Louis:
It's difficult to consider homosexuality a behaviour likened to fetish, when some version of homosexual tendencies is exhibited in virtually the entirety of the population. |
So is one variation or another of fetishism, actually... just not carried to extremes. You could argue that it doesn't become a fetish until it goes to an extreme, but...
R.
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12/18/2009 05:47:39 PM · #3127 |
A person can be genetically predisposed to obesity or depression, but they still have choices regarding their diet or how many negative thoughts they allow themselves to believe. So, here's another question: If you're genetically predisposed to be gay, can you choose not to be gay in the same way that someone genetically predisposed to depression can choose not to be depressed?
Message edited by author 2009-12-18 17:49:06. |
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12/18/2009 05:54:45 PM · #3128 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
A person can be genetically predisposed to obesity or depression, but they still have choices regarding their diet or how many negative thoughts they allow themselves to believe. |
I think you'll find that likening homosexuality to physical abnormalities or mental illness is highly insulting.
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
If you're genetically predisposed to be gay, can you choose not to be gay in the same way that someone genetically predisposed to depression can choose not to be depressed? |
Can you choose not to be straight? Do you think anal or oral copulation with a man will be as fulfilling for you as vaginal sex with a woman? |
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12/18/2009 05:58:34 PM · #3129 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
A person can be genetically predisposed to obesity or depression, but they still have choices regarding their diet or how many negative thoughts they allow themselves to believe. So, here's another question: If you're genetically predisposed to be gay, can you choose not to be gay in the same way that someone genetically predisposed to depression can choose not to be depressed? |
This is so naive... People suffering from clinical depression don't have a "choice" on "how many negative thoughts they allow themselves to believe", it's not about thoughts at *all*, except as a symptom. There *are* medicines that can control depression, of course, and seeking help for depression *is* a choice.
But, homosexuality? You're arguing from the presumption that it's a disease, that there's something inherently *wrong* with being gay, and that's just one step shy of playing the abomination card. A lot of us simply don't accept that. Homosexuality is *NOT* a disease, it's just a different orientation than heterosexuality. It doesn't need to be "cured", it shouldn't even have to be remarked upon.
R.
Message edited by author 2009-12-18 17:59:22. |
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12/18/2009 06:01:31 PM · #3130 |
| Man we got off my bit really quickly. Back to my question! Louis tried to answer, but I agree with Bear on his reply. |
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12/18/2009 06:05:59 PM · #3131 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
A person can be genetically predisposed to obesity or depression, but they still have choices regarding their diet or how many negative thoughts they allow themselves to believe. |
I think you'll find that likening homosexuality to physical abnormalities or mental illness is highly insulting.
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
If you're genetically predisposed to be gay, can you choose not to be gay in the same way that someone genetically predisposed to depression can choose not to be depressed? |
Can you choose not to be straight? Do you think anal or oral copulation with a man will be as fulfilling for you as vaginal sex with a woman? |
Are you saying that people with mental illness or physical abnormalities are not equal to everyone else? Because I wasn't saying that gay people are not equal. It's only insulting if you think it's bad to be obese or have depression. If obesity and depression aren't viewed as being bad, then likening homosexuality to them isn't bad either...
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
A person can be genetically predisposed to obesity or depression, but they still have choices regarding their diet or how many negative thoughts they allow themselves to believe. So, here's another question: If you're genetically predisposed to be gay, can you choose not to be gay in the same way that someone genetically predisposed to depression can choose not to be depressed? |
This is so naive... People suffering from clinical depression don't have a "choice" on "how many negative thoughts they allow themselves to believe", it's not about thoughts at *all*, except as a symptom. There *are* medicines that can control depression, of course, and seeking help for depression *is* a choice.
But, homosexuality? You're arguing from the presumption that it's a disease, that there's something inherently *wrong* with being gay, and that's just one step shy of playing the abomination card. A lot of us simply don't accept that. Homosexuality is *NOT* a disease, it's just a different orientation than heterosexuality. It doesn't need to be "cured", it shouldn't even have to be remarked upon.
R. |
I suffer from clinical depression (or at least used to), and I chose to seek help, and I was on prescription antidepressants for years, and now I don't suffer from depression anymore. Why? The therapy and drugs were just treating the symptoms and making me feel better. I chose to identify myself differently and disregard the negative thoughts. I don't think my depression was a disease, and I don't think I needed to be cured. Nor do I think homosexuality is a disease requiring a cure.
Message edited by author 2009-12-18 18:06:50. |
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12/18/2009 06:12:05 PM · #3132 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Are you saying that people with mental illness or physical abnormalities are not equal to everyone else? |
Of course I'm not. However, you're equating abnormalities with homosexuality, the obvious inference being that we all agree that homosexuality is bad. If you hadn't already arrived at that conclusion, you would never have been able to make such an analogy. It would have been more appropriate had you asked if one could change their sexuality as easily as they could change their hair colour. If you cared about the way you worded things, that is. |
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12/18/2009 06:15:33 PM · #3133 |
| Let's remind ourselves that we can use the word "abnormal" to mean "not the norm". Homosexuality clearly falls in this scientific definition which does not have to imply a moral judgement. But perhaps we should be clear if we mean it one way or the other. |
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12/18/2009 06:17:23 PM · #3134 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Are you saying that people with mental illness or physical abnormalities are not equal to everyone else? |
Of course I'm not. However, you're equating abnormalities with homosexuality, the obvious inference being that we all agree that homosexuality is bad. If you hadn't already arrived at that conclusion, you would never have been able to make such an analogy. It would have been more appropriate had you asked if one could change their sexuality as easily as they could change their hair colour. If you cared about the way you worded things, that is. |
While you claim that I've come to the conclusion that homosexuality is bad, you appear to have come to the conclusion that depression and obesity are bad in calling them "abnormalities". If a person is genetically predisposed to obesity, can you call it an abnormality when that person becomes obese? My analogy sounds bad to you because you believe that I was likening homosexuality to an abnormality, when in fact I was simply comparing three different conditions of the human race, without implying that any of them are bad. |
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12/18/2009 06:20:11 PM · #3135 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Let's remind ourselves that we can use the word "abnormal" to mean "not the norm". Homosexuality clearly falls in this scientific definition which does not have to imply a moral judgement. But perhaps we should be clear if we mean it one way or the other. |
You have a good point, there is a stark difference between what is normal for humanity and what is normal for an individual. Statistically, homosexuality is not a "normal" occurrence in the human race, but it may be a "normal" occurrence in the case of individuals.
So, when we say something is "abnormal" are we saying that it is "bad"?
Message edited by author 2009-12-18 18:22:25. |
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12/18/2009 06:30:06 PM · #3136 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
If you're genetically predisposed to be gay, can you choose not to be gay in the same way that someone genetically predisposed to depression can choose not to be depressed? |
Can you choose not to be straight? Do you think anal or oral copulation with a man will be as fulfilling for you as vaginal sex with a woman? |
Are you saying that people with mental illness or physical abnormalities are not equal to everyone else... |
I would be interested in your proper answer to the question - could you choose to enjoy and find fulfilment in sexual encounters with a man?
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12/18/2009 06:30:38 PM · #3137 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Are you saying that people with mental illness or physical abnormalities are not equal to everyone else? |
Of course I'm not. However, you're equating abnormalities with homosexuality, the obvious inference being that we all agree that homosexuality is bad. If you hadn't already arrived at that conclusion, you would never have been able to make such an analogy. It would have been more appropriate had you asked if one could change their sexuality as easily as they could change their hair colour. If you cared about the way you worded things, that is. |
While you claim that I've come to the conclusion that homosexuality is bad, you appear to have come to the conclusion that depression and obesity are bad in calling them "abnormalities". If a person is genetically predisposed to obesity, can you call it an abnormality when that person becomes obese? My analogy sounds bad to you because you believe that I was likening homosexuality to an abnormality, when in fact I was simply comparing three different conditions of the human race, without implying that any of them are bad. |
I think this is dubious. No psychiatrist would suggest that clinical depression is normal, and no doctor would advise an obese person to "just go on being obese" because the individual is genetically predisposed to the condition (which I am inclined to dispute in the first place). Both are clearly abnormal, undesirable conditions leading to serious problems for individuals so afflicted.
If you are arguing that homosexuality is such a condition, then do so, but don't hide behind such semantic trickery. |
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12/18/2009 06:58:57 PM · #3138 |
| Swinging it back. What do people suspect? Is a latex fetish a genetic disposition? If so, is it the same genes that could predispose someone to being gay? |
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12/18/2009 07:10:01 PM · #3139 |
Originally posted by Matthew:
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
If you're genetically predisposed to be gay, can you choose not to be gay in the same way that someone genetically predisposed to depression can choose not to be depressed? |
Can you choose not to be straight? Do you think anal or oral copulation with a man will be as fulfilling for you as vaginal sex with a woman? |
Are you saying that people with mental illness or physical abnormalities are not equal to everyone else... |
I would be interested in your proper answer to the question - could you choose to enjoy and find fulfilment in sexual encounters with a man? |
Well, I used to hate coffee and beer, but after having both of them for some time I developed a taste for it. I'm not saying that coffee and beer are anything like gay sexual encounters, and I'm not saying that I would enjoy said encounters, but I do think that you can come to enjoy something that you previously disliked.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Swinging it back. What do people suspect? Is a latex fetish a genetic disposition? If so, is it the same genes that could predispose someone to being gay? |
I don't think scientists understand genetics all that well. Whether or not people have genetic predispositions to obesity, depression, fetishes, homosexuality, drinking coffee, etc. I have absolutely no idea, and I don't know if scientists know all that well either. You know, some Christians say that God predetermines every single choice and step a person will ever make in life, and many people think that idea is absurd. But, it seems like scientists are trying to prove the same thing, except instead of God doing the determining it's your genes that do the determining. Science is almost taking on the argument of free will vs. predestination just like Christianity has. |
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12/18/2009 07:50:23 PM · #3140 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Can you choose not to be straight? Do you think anal or oral copulation with a man will be as fulfilling for you as vaginal sex with a woman? |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
I used to hate coffee and beer, but after having both of them for some time I developed a taste for it. I'm not saying that coffee and beer are anything like gay sexual encounters, and I'm not saying that I would enjoy said encounters, but I do think that you can come to enjoy something that you previously disliked. |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Swinging it back. What do people suspect? Is a latex fetish a genetic disposition? If so, is it the same genes that could predispose someone to being gay? |
You both seem to be equating physical and mental traits with mere personal preference as if everything is an "acquired taste," and that's dodging the question. Did you choose to prefer women over men? If anything, it would seem that moral and cultural norms are the learned behaviors since they differ from one society to another, while homosexual orientations are found in even the most socially strict or repressive regimes. I might learn to like Pepsi over Coke, but I'm not right-handed. There's a big difference. I could "choose" to override that trait, but it will never feel as comfortable as just being naturally left-handed. Likewise, you or I might be forced to "love" another man, but we'd fight it all the way because that's not how we're wired, so to speak.
You're looking at homosexuality at best like a conscious choice between Coke and Pepsi (and further assuming there is only one correct choice) at at worst as a disease, whereas I consider it exactly like left handedness... and a "moral majority" trying to ban it as if a law encourage me to switch. The word "left" in nearly every language means something evil or bad, and people were actually burned at the stake in the 1600's for the capital offense of being left handed. There's nothing offensive about it, but in the minds of people who fear and distrust anything different. Nowadays most people consider it just another natural variation and don't give it another thought as far as what such "deviants" should be allowed to do. The first gene associated with left-handedness was only discovered two years ago. I doubt there's any chance a "latex gene" would ever be found because rubber garments don't exist at all in nature and have only been around for a few decades. |
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12/18/2009 08:22:49 PM · #3141 |
Interestingly, handedness is also likely influenced by environmental factors as shown by the fact there is a surprisingly high discordance in handedness between identical twins.
Nobody chooses to be left handed, but that doesn't mean the environment plays no role. It's an important distinction at least in the scientific exploration of the topic.
"Twin studies partly support a genetic basis for handedness. Several large twin studies on handedness did not find increased concordance in monozygotic twin pairs compared with dizygotic pairs (McManus, 1980; Derom et al., 1996; Orlebeke et al., 1996; Ross et al., 1999), although a large meta-analysis of 9969 twin pairs from 28 studies found slightly but significantly higher concordance for handedness in monozygotic than in dizygotic twin pairs (Sicotte et al., 1999). This discrepancy between family and twin studies may indicate the presence of another, non-genetic factor in determining handedness in twins (Derom et al., 1996; Sicotte et al., 1999)."
You could probably come up with a better example to make your point, but you may have accidentally made mine...
Message edited by author 2009-12-18 20:25:19. |
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12/18/2009 08:26:25 PM · #3142 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Science is almost taking on the argument of free will vs. predestination just like Christianity has. |
Genetics ain't free will or choice. If a baby's gene's confer red hair, green eyes, and a tall frame, rest assured the adult is predestined to have those characteristics. |
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12/18/2009 08:36:38 PM · #3143 |
hate double posts.
Message edited by author 2009-12-18 20:36:55. |
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12/18/2009 08:36:39 PM · #3144 |
but there is a gene for left-handedness...
a little over 1/3 of my paternal extended family is left handed (cousins, aunts, grandparents), way above the norm...
Alternatively, my mother and her identical twin are looking glass - one left and one right. But my mother and I are the only left handers in that family tree... |
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12/18/2009 08:45:10 PM · #3145 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
but there is a gene for left-handedness...
a little over 1/3 of my paternal extended family is left handed (cousins, aunts, grandparents), way above the norm...
Alternatively, my mother and her identical twin are looking glass - one left and one right. But my mother and I are the only left handers in that family tree... |
Just because there is a gene does not mean there is no environmental influence. A clear cut example would be Socks the cat. The fur or hair follicles that are responsible for the white hair on the feet are exactly the same as the hair follicles for the black body. The difference is the body temperature is lower on the extremities which prevents proper formation of the pigment. Same genes. Different results.
Genetic content, environmental influence.
Message edited by author 2009-12-18 20:45:44. |
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12/18/2009 08:57:14 PM · #3146 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Just because there is a gene does not mean there is no environmental influence. A clear cut example would be Socks the cat. The fur or hair follicles that are responsible for the white hair on the feet are exactly the same as the hair follicles for the black body. The difference is the body temperature is lower on the extremities which prevents proper formation of the pigment. Same genes. Different results.
Genetic content, environmental influence. |
I didn't discount environmental influence and included the note on my mother as acknowledgment of that. I guess my 'round about' point was that, genetic or environment, the influence is irrelevant. People are the way they are. I'm left handed. I never chose to be that way, it just happened. I live with it. Actually, I enjoy it. As far as I'm concerned, sexuality (homosexuality in this particular conversation) is the same. It doesn't matter how one arrived there as long as one embraces who they are.
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12/18/2009 09:05:17 PM · #3147 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
I didn't discount environmental influence and included the note on my mother as acknowledgment of that. I guess my 'round about' point was that, genetic or environment, the influence is irrelevant. People are the way they are. I'm left handed. I never chose to be that way, it just happened. I live with it. Actually, I enjoy it. As far as I'm concerned, sexuality (homosexuality in this particular conversation) is the same. It doesn't matter how one arrived there as long as one embraces who they are. |
Bingo, and nobody else has the right to oppress you for it either. |
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12/18/2009 09:12:48 PM · #3148 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
The word "left" in nearly every language means something evil or bad, and people were actually burned at the stake in the 1600's for the capital offense of being left handed. |
The heraldic term for "left" is "sinister." |
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12/18/2009 09:15:30 PM · #3149 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Bingo, and nobody else has the right to oppress you for it either. |
I typed a long rant here, but then I remembered it was pointless. 158 pages of this topic and still people don't see the point. I'll fade away again...
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12/18/2009 09:34:22 PM · #3150 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
I guess my 'round about' point was that, genetic or environment, the influence is irrelevant. |
Hey! I actually 100% agree. Unfortunately I see the "it's genetic" card played as a defensive shield too often. No moral framework worth its salt could possibly hold that some thing like that (it's genetic!) is wrong. At least that's the implication I see claimed quite often. I think that argument is fallacious and the fact of whether it is genetic or not is immaterial. |
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