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09/08/2008 07:05:35 PM · #1 |
I have been advised to first understand how DPC works before jumping on to suggest improvements. I took them, respectfully.
But when I find that pictures like this one scored low...
...I cannot help but suggest improvements.
For a moment now, lets look at the average scores for this pic:
Avg (commenters): 7.6190
Avg (participants): 5.4353
[1] First of all, how can there be such big discrepancy between the scores from those who commented and those who only voted? 2.2 points margin is huge for a 10 point scale, isnt it? :-)
[2] Some may argue that the ones that scored it lower than average, didnt feel like commenting. But thats the whole point! Mostly it is the negative comments that help improve one's work...so if one only comments when they feel obliged to, guess what.. we are introducing a discrepancy between the votes and the comments!
Now the suggestion: it will be ineteresting to use the "Avg (commenters)" score as a metric to decide the winner. This will also encourage more comments, and in my opinion, will also be fair. So the ones that dont want to comment, may very well do so. But their votes dont count towards the final score.
This may cause some frowns, but I am risking it to understand what people think about it here. Just a thought, and as always, no offense, just constructive suggestions to help improve a website I am loving since the day I joined!
Message edited by author 2008-09-08 19:10:52. |
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09/08/2008 07:20:30 PM · #2 |
At a glance, every one of those comments is of the "love it" variety, so the average vote cast is predictably high.
5.9 is not a low score.
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09/08/2008 07:27:04 PM · #3 |
usually the Avg commentators have a higher average than the non-commentators because the picture invoked them to a degree that they had to make a comment! you see not all pictures really move you. remember that people perceive the images in an emotional way rather than logical in the beginning, that's why you would see more comments like "WOW great picture" or "I love that" etc..
from the few entries i entered so far i learned that if you want to get a high score, you really need to get a striking image that a technical person would and a novice would like.
as for commenting, i love reading new comments and cant wait until i get a new one! but i dont think its fair to make the voter feel compelled to vote. in my opinion the faults in this website from voting to commenting and all its aspects are its strengths.
because the real challenge is overcoming all those obstacles. and personally im still learning to overcome them :S (especially with the 4.2 avg you evil voters are giving me on overexposed)
well anyway just relax dude and enter in more challenges :D |
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09/08/2008 07:30:07 PM · #4 |
Originally posted by violinist123:
At a glance, every one of those comments is of the "love it" variety, so the average vote cast is predictably high.
5.9 is not a low score. |
I think you missed the point, dear. It is NOT about absolute score. It is about relative scores. A high absolute score doesnt always guarantee a 1st position always, it is about relative ranking, isnt it?
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09/08/2008 07:35:22 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by ahmadbaara:
usually the Avg commentators have a higher average than the non-commentators because the picture invoked them to a degree that they had to make a comment! you see not all pictures really move you. remember that people perceive the images in an emotional way rather than logical in the beginning, that's why you would see more comments like "WOW great picture" or "I love that" etc..
from the few entries i entered so far i learned that if you want to get a high score, you really need to get a striking image that a technical person would and a novice would like.
as for commenting, i love reading new comments and cant wait until i get a new one! but i dont think its fair to make the voter feel compelled to vote. in my opinion the faults in this website from voting to commenting and all its aspects are its strengths.
because the real challenge is overcoming all those obstacles. and personally im still learning to overcome them :S (especially with the 4.2 avg you evil voters are giving me on overexposed)
well anyway just relax dude and enter in more challenges :D |
I think you missed what I said: Only those who like an image tend to comment usually. The result: many 'good' comments, but less 'constructive' comments.
This one was not my image, to be clear. I am talking about a general topic, not about my own scores.
I am starting to get a feeling that it is preferred by many (not all) to just keep clicking on the screen to vote. And perhaps DPC must be a 'popular' destination, not the 'what's right' destination, so nobody cares:-)
Keep in mind: I love DPC. It is the greatest resource there is to learn about Digital Photography.
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09/08/2008 07:36:34 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by Prash:
Originally posted by violinist123:
At a glance, every one of those comments is of the "love it" variety, so the average vote cast is predictably high.
5.9 is not a low score. |
I think you missed the point, dear. It is NOT about absolute score. It is about relative scores. A high absolute score doesnt always guarantee a 1st position always, it is about relative ranking, isnt it? |
The only thing I find more irritating than your incessant yammering about the lack of comments you receive and how everything needs to be changed to suit your personal vision of how things should be is the fact that you've referred to me as "dear".
If you want comments to help you improve, post your images in threads and ask for them. If you can't be bothered to do so, let it go already.
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09/08/2008 07:42:10 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by violinist123:
Originally posted by Prash:
Originally posted by violinist123:
At a glance, every one of those comments is of the "love it" variety, so the average vote cast is predictably high.
5.9 is not a low score. |
I think you missed the point, dear. It is NOT about absolute score. It is about relative scores. A high absolute score doesnt always guarantee a 1st position always, it is about relative ranking, isnt it? |
The only thing I find more irritating than your incessant yammering about the lack of comments you receive and how everything needs to be changed to suit your personal vision of how things should be is the fact that you've referred to me as "dear".
If you want comments to help you improve, post your images in threads and ask for them. If you can't be bothered to do so, let it go already. |
I appreciate your comments, thank you for your patience.
Message edited by author 2008-09-08 19:50:46. |
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09/08/2008 07:46:57 PM · #8 |
Give it a little more time before you try to change everything. I know you've heard it before. I was of the same opinion when I first joined up but I've gone all the way to the other side. The voters are never wrong in a challenge. That way I don't have to waste any of my valuable time worrying about their motivation. I, of course, have my own opinion of images I view here and if they're in a challenge I vote accordingly. I'm responsible for my vote and no one else's.
On the photo in question with respect to the challenge entered in I would have rated it a 5. I'd have commented that the outside window frame is dark and adds noting to the composition in my opinion. Over half the image is seriously dirty window panes that do nothing for me. The wonderful emotion and tenderness captured in the bottom of the window brings all the 5. |
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09/08/2008 07:47:56 PM · #9 |
| Let's try to keep it civil here, and remember that the forums are for everyone to post their opinion to. If a user needs to be told to stop posting, the SC will handle that responsibility. Thanks! |
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09/08/2008 07:52:04 PM · #10 |
| Don't forget that it goes both ways. I just looked at a photo that had an overall score of 4.XXX and yet the commentors only gave it a 3.XXX. Going to make one person suffer for the benefits of the other! Forcing people to comment has been discussed to death (where's that dead horse! ;-) ) and can be found within the forums by searching. I am sure that after all the discussion over the years that has been contributed to this subject a reasonable (better) solution has not been found. Is it perfect? Probably not, but it's a damn sight better than what is on other sites I've heard about. |
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09/08/2008 07:56:46 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by kawesttex:
Don't forget that it goes both ways. I just looked at a photo that had an overall score of 4.XXX and yet the commentors only gave it a 3.XXX. Going to make one person suffer for the benefits of the other! Forcing people to comment has been discussed to death (where's that dead horse! ;-) ) and can be found within the forums by searching. I am sure that after all the discussion over the years that has been contributed to this subject a reasonable (better) solution has not been found. Is it perfect? Probably not, but it's a damn sight better than what is on other sites I've heard about. |
Excellent point. I am yet to see examples of the sort that you mentioned, I will pay more attention. I still wonder, however, wont a comments only score be fairer? So if an image got low commenter's score v/s the rest, perhaps it actually deserved that? It is just a question, I do not know the answer.
Thank you for your comment. |
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09/08/2008 07:59:31 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by fir3bird:
Give it a little more time before you try to change everything. I know you've heard it before. I was of the same opinion when I first joined up but I've gone all the way to the other side. The voters are never wrong in a challenge. That way I don't have to waste any of my valuable time worrying about their motivation. I, of course, have my own opinion of images I view here and if they're in a challenge I vote accordingly. I'm responsible for my vote and no one else's.
On the photo in question with respect to the challenge entered in I would have rated it a 5. I'd have commented that the outside window frame is dark and adds noting to the composition in my opinion. Over half the image is seriously dirty window panes that do nothing for me. The wonderful emotion and tenderness captured in the bottom of the window brings all the 5. |
Thank you for commenting back, and commenting on the image itself. You beautifully supported the suggestion:
The fact that you did not comment on the image originally means that the author missed out on these nice constructive comments. If only you had commented then, the avg commenter's score would have evened out, but with a bonus: there will be this great comment going along!
Thanks again.
ETA: Pardon me, but I am still trying to understand why 'change' is feared so much? What is it that lets one say 'lets not change' without a justification? Isnt talking about change good? Imagine if nobody tried to change things for good, how would life be?
Message edited by author 2008-09-08 20:16:49. |
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09/08/2008 08:08:51 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by Prash:
Originally posted by kawesttex:
Don't forget that it goes both ways. I just looked at a photo that had an overall score of 4.XXX and yet the commentors only gave it a 3.XXX. Going to make one person suffer for the benefits of the other! Forcing people to comment has been discussed to death (where's that dead horse! ;-) ) and can be found within the forums by searching. I am sure that after all the discussion over the years that has been contributed to this subject a reasonable (better) solution has not been found. Is it perfect? Probably not, but it's a damn sight better than what is on other sites I've heard about. |
Excellent point. I am yet to see examples of the sort that you mentioned, I will pay more attention. I still wonder, however, wont a comments only score be fairer? So if an image got low commenter's score v/s the rest, perhaps it actually deserved that? It is just a question, I do not know the answer.
Thank you for your comment. |
Typically you can go look at the photos that are at the bottom finishing spots. Although some actually go for that spot, not all pictures are submitted with 'winning' the brown as a goal. |
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09/08/2008 08:32:41 PM · #14 |
Good for you  prash that you want to see some change in here. why don't you give us the example, so far you have cast 729 votes, but have made only 57 comments, huh!!!
Message edited by author 2008-09-08 20:33:00. |
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09/08/2008 08:42:45 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by Maggye:
Good for you prash that you want to see some change in here. why don't you give us the example, so far you have cast 729 votes, but have made only 57 comments, huh!!! |
Thanks for the encouragement, you actually supported my suggestion to only count commented votes for final scores!
To answer your question: what you mentioned would be an individual based system, not guaranteed to be fair. So some people who are nice enough to take the time out (like yourself), will comment on most entries. Others (the majority, like myself) will not do it at their level because the system doesnt require it. Now please think about it: is it more efficient to
- pick on everyone (like you did on me, thanks) and ask them to comment, and whether they will comment more for this reason?
OR
- to have a system that will even out this individual preference based commenting style?
I am looking for a constructive answer, not individual blaming, sorry no pun intended.
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09/08/2008 08:43:58 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by Prash:
Originally posted by Maggye:
Good for you prash that you want to see some change in here. why don't you give us the example, so far you have cast 729 votes, but have made only 57 comments, huh!!! |
Thanks for the encouragement, you actually supported my suggestion to only count commented votes for final scores!
To answer your question: what you mentioned would be an individual based system, not guaranteed to be fair. So some people who are nice enough to take the time out (like yourself), will comment on most entries. Others (the majority, like myself) will not do it at their level because the system doesnt require it. Now please think about it: is it more efficient to
- pick on everyone (like you did on me, thanks) and ask them to comment, and whether they will comment more for this reason?
OR
- to have a system that will even out this individual preference based commenting style?
I am looking for a constructive answer, not individual blaming, sorry no pun intended. |
Site Council - Is there anyway to put someone on "Ignore"? This might be a great site feature.... |
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09/08/2008 08:45:28 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by bassbone:
Originally posted by Prash:
Originally posted by Maggye:
Good for you prash that you want to see some change in here. why don't you give us the example, so far you have cast 729 votes, but have made only 57 comments, huh!!! |
Thanks for the encouragement, you actually supported my suggestion to only count commented votes for final scores!
To answer your question: what you mentioned would be an individual based system, not guaranteed to be fair. So some people who are nice enough to take the time out (like yourself), will comment on most entries. Others (the majority, like myself) will not do it at their level because the system doesnt require it. Now please think about it: is it more efficient to
- pick on everyone (like you did on me, thanks) and ask them to comment, and whether they will comment more for this reason?
OR
- to have a system that will even out this individual preference based commenting style?
I am looking for a constructive answer, not individual blaming, sorry no pun intended. |
Site Council - Is there anyway to put someone on "Ignore"? This might be a great site feature.... |
There is a simpler way: not to read all the posts that "the one you want to ignore" started :-) |
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09/08/2008 08:48:11 PM · #18 |
I didn't vote in that challenge, sorry. If I would have, given the type of challenge and quality/"eye" appeal to me...I would have scored a 5 at best. It didn't really express "night" to me. Would have done better in a challenge for "emotion" or "love".
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09/08/2008 08:51:44 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by bassbone:
Site Council - Is there anyway to put someone on "Ignore"? This might be a great site feature.... |
We have a Thread Ignore option instead.
Of course, if you would really-really-pretty-please-with-cherries-on-top love-to-have an "Ignore User" option, you are welcome to beat that (also) dead horse in the Web Site Suggestion forum area. Good luck!
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09/08/2008 08:54:55 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by Prash:
There is a simpler way: not to read all the posts that "the one you want to ignore" started :-) |
No that's not actually simpler because you still have to decide what you want to read or not. With an ignore function you wouldn't even be presented with their posts. No posts no decision to make, much simpler
I second the suggestion for this improvement! |
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09/08/2008 08:56:30 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by DJWoodward:
Originally posted by Prash:
There is a simpler way: not to read all the posts that "the one you want to ignore" started :-) |
No that's not actually simpler because you still have to decide what you want to read or not. With an ignore function you wouldn't even be presented with their posts. No posts no decision to make, much simpler
I second the suggestion for this improvement! |
Woot! Del helps me hijack the thread! But where's CEJ when we need him? |
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09/08/2008 08:56:39 PM · #22 |
| Please keep this thread on the topic, which is about comments in challenges rather than site features. Thanks! |
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09/08/2008 08:58:07 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by L2:
Please keep this thread on the topic, which is about comments in challenges rather than site features. Thanks! |
Sorry  L2
Back to the topic at hand....I think commenting is GREAT. Everyone should be required to make 100 comments for every post to a forum. |
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09/08/2008 09:00:12 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by DJWoodward:
Originally posted by Prash:
There is a simpler way: not to read all the posts that "the one you want to ignore" started :-) |
No that's not actually simpler because you still have to decide what you want to read or not. With an ignore function you wouldn't even be presented with their posts. No posts no decision to make, much simpler
I second the suggestion for this improvement! |
In fact I wouldnt mind that myself (for now there are reasons), thank you.
Honestly, it is not nice to see new thinking avoided, and not confronted and discussed objectively.
It is just sad.
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09/08/2008 09:09:33 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by Prash:
...
Honestly, it is not nice to see new thinking avoided, and not confronted and discussed objectively.
It is just sad. |
Prash, I'm so sorry, but it's not really "new" thinking. I think this is the point that some of the others are trying to make.
It's so nice that you are excited about DPC and willing to jump in with both feet! Why not take some time to familiarize yourself with the older threads on the subject? If, after doing so, there is an angle or argument for/against that hasn't already been presented I'm sure the rest of us would be glad to listen.
I'm sure you'll be interested to know that for awhile, DPC did institute a program that "nagged" voters to leave a comment on votes of 3 or less. We found that it had no discernible effect, and it was discontinued. |
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